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TonyBS
Guest
Shame to see this destruction of Houses of the Mention of God. Shows how far man has strayed from Gods Path.
Regards To all Tony
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worldcitizen
Guest
The Covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Assyrian Christians
"God has told me in a vision what to do, and I confirm His Command by giving my solemn promise to keep this agreement.
To the followers of the Islam I say:
Christians have full liberty of worship in their churches and homes. None of their churches shall be torn down, or altered into a mosque, except by the consent and free will of the Nazarenes. If anyone disobeys this command, the anger of Allah and His Prophet shall be upon him.
This document shall be entrusted to the Christian chief and head of their church for safe keeping.
This agreement is written down by Mu‘awiyyah ibn [Abi] Sufyan, according to the dictates of Mohammed, the messenger of God, in the 4th year of the Hegira in the city of Medina. (626 A D)"
(Six Covenants of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of His Time - John Andrew Morrow Foreword)
"God has told me in a vision what to do, and I confirm His Command by giving my solemn promise to keep this agreement.
To the followers of the Islam I say:
Christians have full liberty of worship in their churches and homes. None of their churches shall be torn down, or altered into a mosque, except by the consent and free will of the Nazarenes. If anyone disobeys this command, the anger of Allah and His Prophet shall be upon him.
This document shall be entrusted to the Christian chief and head of their church for safe keeping.
This agreement is written down by Mu‘awiyyah ibn [Abi] Sufyan, according to the dictates of Mohammed, the messenger of God, in the 4th year of the Hegira in the city of Medina. (626 A D)"
(Six Covenants of the Prophet Muhammad with the Christians of His Time - John Andrew Morrow Foreword)
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Like the taking of the Hagia Sophia, only worse. I would have preferred Isis Barbarians to convert it and at least leave the monastery standing. They will follow their religious convictions and Christians will have to follow theirs and persevere through such treatment.
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Reuben_J
Guest
What the Islamic State has done, and how much I hate to say this, so much for the religion of peace which we have so disillusioned with. …
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worldcitizen
Guest
Hi Ignatian,
If you read the above Covenant the anger of both God and Muhammad are on Isis.
I’m really upset that the world seems so helpless. We can never get these priceless places back again. So frustrating that the world can’t defeat a mob of thugs.
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worldcitizen
Guest
Reuben,
They go against God and Muhammad. They are lunatics. See the Covenants of Muhammad above made with Chrustian monks in Assyria which probably included this one.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I don’t buy it.
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TonyBS
Guest
That is why it is still happens.
In the late 1800’s Baha’u’llah had written to all the Kings, Rulers and Spiritual Leaders and told them Who he was and what had to be done to obtain the Kingdom of God on Earth. All but the Queen of England Offered rejection and Baha’u’llah granted her an extended Reighn. He then wrote to them all and explained what result that rejection would bring and what they needed to to do to get a “Lesser Peace”. One of these steps was what the world needed to do to stop this type of thuggery unfolding.
These Tablets available for all to see. The world is slowly moving towards the advice without even knowing the source of their own actions. These tablets telling the demise of each he wrote to and it all unfolded as writtwn, as it still does.
All Baha’i Holy places that will become points of Pilgrimage in the future in Iran, have also been razed to the ground.
They will be rebuilt as accurate plans have been compiled for this reason.
Nothing short of the Unity of Mankind and action based in obtaining that Unity will endure. The Old World Order is Dead and a New one rolls out in its stead. The Path for this given by the Father Himself.
Regards Tony
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worldcitizen
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Reuben_J
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Hi. The most you can say is that it is plainly you own opinion or the teaching from your Imam which you believe. However, you will find it very difficult indeed to say which part of what the Islamic State do which is against the belief in Islam and the practice of Muhammad himself. Probably you have not read the reasons why the Islamic State did what they did.
I understand your take on this as I have read there are also many Muslims who do not agree with Islamic State. The differences, it seems, are purely on the different interpretation of Islam, whereby the Islamic State believe in more fundamental and strict form of Islam, while you guys probably are more moderate. The Islamic State made it quite clear that they follow the early Caliphs practice which they think is more authentic and purer form of Islam.
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worldcitizen
Guest
Dear Reuben,
Firstly I’m a Bahai If a group say a small army called themselves Christians and went around doing the horrific things Isis do would you accept they are Christians in any form or manner? I would reject them out of hand. Their foul deeds betray their true religion which is they worship themselves. No God or Prophet supports their horrific, unspeakable barbarism.
The majority of Muslims are beautiful, hospitable, courteous kind and generous people as are Christians who would never even think of harming anyone because the Quran only taught self defense when attacked not to aggress.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Do any such rules exist in the Islamic accounts of the life of the prophet or are we to accept these purported contracts solely on the basis of a modern acceptance of tolerance? I’m aware of the actiname of Muhammad to the Orthodox monks of St Catherine but I do not know of such documents is authentic especially given the history of Islam on these matters. Either Muslims from very early on have completely misunderstood Islam or this is a legitimate Islamic practice towards a false religion.
If you think ISIS isn’t at all inspired by religion you are denying reality.
If you think ISIS isn’t at all inspired by religion you are denying reality.
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worldcitizen
Guest
The attitude Muhammad fostered in these verses of the Quran confirm the Covenants with the Christians as one of love & tolerance. Isis go against the very spirit of the Quran.
An ugly man may call himself handsome but deceives no one and a black person may call himself white yet he deceives no one not even himself. Isis are against the Quran. 2:190.
5:82 And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection toward those who believe to be those who say, “We are Christians.” That is because among them are priests and monks, and because they are not arrogant. 83 And when they hear that which was sent down unto the Messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of the truth they recognize.
2:62 Truly those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabeans whosoever believes in God and the Last Day and works righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord. No fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Hi worldcitizen. Sorry I did not notice that you are actually a Bahai. It is different than Islam, is it not?
In that case, though nobody stops you from speaking for Muslims, you are actually not qualified to really correct them, especially Islamic State who are fervently Muslims themselves. They are willing to give up their lives for their belief, rightly or wrongly.
And please, Mr. worldcitizen, they are certainly not few in numbers. You also do not know the number of sleeping members and closet sympathizers.
You did not read my post, obviously. Did you study the reason for them to do the thing that they do? You people become typical – you do not address the post you replied to but instead using your post to preach about your religion.
If Christians went around doing the horrific things Islamic State do, they are nevertheless still Christians. The only thing I would want to find out - why are they doing that? What theological reason that may be?
Islamic State do have theological reason for doing the things they do. You just do not agree with them but then again, who are you to say so? You are just a Bahai, not even a Muslim. Of course, that does not mean you cannot comment on Islam. And you may give a good (name removed by moderator)ut but know that, you do not have credibility. Muslims always say a non-Muslim would not be able to interpret the Quran correctly as would a Muslim.
Certainly. We all are. But neither you nor I are Muslims either.
I agree with you that the majority of Muslims as ‘beautiful, hospitable, courteous kind and generous people’ as are Christians. Sometimes people are just being good, sometimes religious teaching of course does much to affect that, sometimes does not.
Tell that to Islamic State and I think they have much to educate you, a Bahai.
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worldcitizen
Guest
Dear Reuben,
Thank you for your kind reply,
ISIS, The Caliphate and the possible threat to humanity
Isis as I understand it, want to establish and renew the Caliphate based on the caliphate which conquered, slaughtered, beheaded and raped their way to victory beginning with the Umayyads around 666 AD, followed by the Abbasids then Ottomans. Note that military Islam began in the year 666 the mark of the beast in revelation. (Rev13:18) The beast deceived all on earth. Militant Islam or Sunni Islam has been accepted worldwide for centuries yet it is not true Islam.
Isis are saying this is the Day of resurrection and the day for the caliphate to be established again. They use a mix of cherry picked Quranic verses out of context and Hadiths which have no authority from the Quran whatsoever. . Their goal is to destroy and conquer, subjugate all infidel lands and establish a world Islamic state or caliphate based on shariah law.
Sunni Islam came from the Caliphate and Sunnis already account for the majority of Islamic nations on earth so ISIS may be backed by Sunnis and Sunni countries may join them at a later date. That is the worry.
So in light of a possible joining with Sunni States it’s a huge threat and if it happens the only solution will be for the world to unite.
The danger is that while westerners party and indulge in materialism the cause for the Caliphate grows through Isis.
Thank you for your kind reply,
ISIS, The Caliphate and the possible threat to humanity
Isis as I understand it, want to establish and renew the Caliphate based on the caliphate which conquered, slaughtered, beheaded and raped their way to victory beginning with the Umayyads around 666 AD, followed by the Abbasids then Ottomans. Note that military Islam began in the year 666 the mark of the beast in revelation. (Rev13:18) The beast deceived all on earth. Militant Islam or Sunni Islam has been accepted worldwide for centuries yet it is not true Islam.
Isis are saying this is the Day of resurrection and the day for the caliphate to be established again. They use a mix of cherry picked Quranic verses out of context and Hadiths which have no authority from the Quran whatsoever. . Their goal is to destroy and conquer, subjugate all infidel lands and establish a world Islamic state or caliphate based on shariah law.
Sunni Islam came from the Caliphate and Sunnis already account for the majority of Islamic nations on earth so ISIS may be backed by Sunnis and Sunni countries may join them at a later date. That is the worry.
So in light of a possible joining with Sunni States it’s a huge threat and if it happens the only solution will be for the world to unite.
The danger is that while westerners party and indulge in materialism the cause for the Caliphate grows through Isis.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
The most interesting thing about Surah 5 is how alot of the Surah is actually a furious denunciation of the people of the Book, so I don’t understand how exactly this proves your point. The Surah goes on to criticise Jews and Christians saying that in fact most of us are defiantly disobedient and this of course aligns with other surahs which blatently state and call Christians the worst of all creatures.
Surah 98:6 : Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.
It was your fellow Bahai servant who defined our Christianity is polytheistic and pantheistic at root. We are clearly those who disbelieved (Islam and Islamic Tauwhid) and we also classified with the polytheists. The mention of some monks and priests of whom we know nothing about, given the nature of Christianity in arabia at the time, to whom the Quran praises tells us nothing about how Muslims like those Isis Muslims ought to treat us Christians who have disbelieved in Islam.
Where is the Surah which commands that our property be protected? That our lives be protected at no cost? That Christians are just as valid as Muslims in their practice? I don’t believe such a verse exists. So when you say that Isis cherry picks verses, I only see you cherry picking verses when the entire context seems to be against your opinion that Islam tolerates Christianity. If we pay the Jizya with willing submission, yeah, I suppose we are tolerated. It’s why I don’t buy your claim that Isis is totally Misunderstanding Islam. If that charge can be laid against Isis it can be laid against a great deal of Muslims throughout history, Muslims who conquered and subjected Christian people to the treatment we see now since the time of Muhammad.
Do you agree with the Quran World Citizen that I am one of the Worst creatures in the world?
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worldcitizen
Guest
You are not vile but a GOOD person and the Quran does not call you vile it praises your sincerity.
The verse about not accepting Muhammad is self explanatory to me. I understand that Muhammad was prophesied in the Bible and so a Christian who rejects Muhammad is also rejecting Jesus and the Bible and that is up to God how He judges them for that mistake in the next world. Disbelief is condemned because Christians were given clear signs of the coming of Muhammad but still refused to accept Him like the Jews were given clear signs of Christ yet rejected Him.
No one is a vile creature except those who acted in a vile manner. People who acted with upright conduct were praised.
2: 62. Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans-any who believe in God and the Last Day, and act righteously-will have their reward with their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
The term ‘unbeliever’ needs to be understood within the historical and social context 1400 years ago. An unbeliever those days was not a New York blue collar office worker. Part of the Quraysh culture at the time was to bury their first born alive in the sand if it was a girl - that is vile. It was a barbaric lawless environment.
Muhammad condemned rightfully those who acted in a vile manner but as above in 2:62 He says that those Christians and Jews who believe in God will have their reward.
Christianity is a Monothestic religion. Maybe that person understood the trinity as 3 gods.
Cherry picking is just using the verses that suit ones bias but what I try to do is cross reference subjects to get a balanced view and a more complete picture. For instance the Quran does condemn those who don’t accept Muhammad but it also says that Christians who believe in God don’t fall under that category and the condemnation of vile creatures is directed at people who act in a vile manner not all Christians as 2:62 clarifies if we cross reference and don’t take verses in isolation. Cherry picking involves no cross referencing just picking a verse and and running with it as if there is no other verse in the Quran elaborating on the subject. We need to look at all the verses on a subject to have a clearer understanding as well as a knowledge of the history and social laws and customs of 1400 years ago. Then there are some English translations which do not give the full meaning that was intended so cross referencing sometimes 7 English translations is necessary to bring up a close translation.
Example slave girls. Some versions don’t mention you must marry them before sex and other versions only say contract. But proper and thorough research reveals marriage with permission is intended and not as a lover or for illicit sex, but that takes months and months of research.
I try to present the wider picture of all the verses of what the Quran says on a subject and I find that most misconceptions arise from quoting single verses without proper research. Many verses elaborate on a subject.
If I’ve left out anything please let me know.
A sura in the Quran that says not to make friends with Christians is a mistranslation in many English versions. The correct translation is not to take Christians or Jews as political, military or moral allies.
The tax was supposed to be fair and not a burden and people such as the poor, aged or sick were exempt. In return they were protected and in the event of war didn’t have to fight.
But the Caliiphs who became greedy used it corruptly. There is nothing wrong with a fairly administered tax like we have in the west but with the Caliphs nothing was fair. I don’t think many, if any Muslim States use that tax today but Isis want to revive the corrupt evil oppressive nature of the Caliph who went far astray from the Quran.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
The topic please
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Reuben_J
Guest
So you see the problem with you earlier assertion?That IS (Islamic State): “They go against God and Muhammad. They are lunatics.” “a group of small army”, “you do not accept they are Muslims in any form or manner.”
You know those are wrong, right? You were only saying what you want Islam to be, not what it is.
Muslims, especially Sunnis which form more than 80 percents of Muslim population believe that the first four caliphs (the Rashidun caliphate) as ‘models of righteous rule’.
And yet as you readily admitted, “the Caliphate based on the caliphate which conquered, slaughtered, beheaded and raped their way to victory beginning with the Umayyads …” If you say that this was not Islam, you are really in a state of denial.
They were all close companions of Muhammad, and his relatives: the daughters of Abu Bakr and Umar were married to Muhammad, and three of Muhammad’s daughters were married to Uthman and Ali.
Sunnis have long viewed the period of the Rashidun as exemplary and a system of governance—based upon Islamic righteousness and merit—they seek to emulate. Sunnis also equate this system with the worldly success that was promised by Allah, in the Quran and hadith, to those Muslims who pursued His pleasure; this spectacular success has further added to the emulatory appeal of the Rashidun era.
When ISIS claim to use the caliphate model as their objective, no Sunni Muslims can openly tell them that they are unIslamic. They can only disagree with their method in conducting their war but on the whole they really cannot say that they are not Muslims.
A Muslim cannot say that another Muslim is not Muslim.
The Rashidun caliphs were the closest to Muhammad than any other Muslims who ever ruled on this earth. They were considered closest to Muhammad, his direct sahabas and disciples. Their relation to Muhammad can be compared to the apostles of Jesus in term of their closeness to their prophet.
So is it any wonder that those who model themselves after those Caliphs would do the thing they do in Iraq? There is no need to whitewash. Just call a spade, a spade.
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