On the religion of Islam

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Anyone, that would include Jews and Muslims, who worship the true God are actually worshipping the Trinity. They don’t know that, but they cannot change what God is by their misunderstanding of Him. I believe that is what Salibi means.
 
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Ok thanks.

(1) What God is and
(2) What someone believes God is

seems like two different things to me. Doesn’t seem like (1) determine salvation or everyone would be saved, so I thought it was (2), but I think I see the point.
 
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Aquinas11 said:
Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism.
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Check out a British writer named William Dalrymple. His book From the Holy Mountain outlines many similarities between Islam and Christianity, and even points out how much the two religions adopted from each other, especially in areas where they coexist such as the Middle East. For instance, did you know that the Islamic habit of praying five times a day was adopted from the Christian Liturgy of Hours? Or that the Muslim prostrations mimick Syriac Christian prostrations? Visit any Syriac church in the ME and you’d think you’re in a Muslim mosque- just a sea of backsides in the air. Also, the prayer niche pointing towards Mecca was adopted from Christian niches pointing towards the east, these fell out of use in Christianity but persisted in Islam! Then there’s mosque architecture: the towering minarets, the grand domes, the practice of removing one’s shoes before entering were all adopted from Syriac churches. Check Dalrymple’s book out- it’s a real eye-opener.
 
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Not for sure I understand your point. Yes, those are two different things. If we are worshiping the a being , we are worshiping what He is, not what we think He is (which for us Catholics are not in conflict).

But you lose me on the salvation part. Certainly I am not saying that Muslims are saved because they worship the same God we do. If they are saved, it is through the Catholic Church, due to their invincible ignorance about Jesus Christ, AND because they have led a just life.
 
Salibi said:
Think of it this way: Would you say Jews worship a different God than Christians? They also don’t believe in the Trinity.
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No its same God but different in sense they don’t see God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
Ok thanks. Wow, no I didn’t know any of that. Yes the other main point he makes is that Muslims, like Chrsitians, forbid the practice of usury, which is significant because it is root of much evil in world , all the way to today.

I recently read of a really amazing Catholic Saint from Syria. Saint Simeon Stylites who apparently lived on a platform above the earth for last 37 years of his life in order to avoid committing sin. At first I thought “how did this guy get food and water?” But then read he had countless pilgrims visit him and would give him food and drink up on a rope.
 
Aquinas11 said:
Saint Simeon Stylites w
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He’s an ancient saint. Byzantine era. I’m surprised you’ve never heard of him. He’s popular in the Levant. One thing I know about him is that his pillar was chipped away by pilgrims until only a stub remains today.
 
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Aquinas11 said:
Not sure what you mean here by worshipping a being?
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We are just completely confusing each other 🙂 All I was trying to do is put worshiping God into a more generic context. Really wasn’t necessary to my argument.
 
I thought there were multiple saints who lived on pillars at one time in the east. Was he the only one?
 
No, there were several. He’s the most well known, though. It was a common ascetic practice at the time, but not everyone was capable of seeing ot through. Lots gave up.
 
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Yeah I think I get the gist of the argument and you’re right about the salvation point.

I guess the main argument I was making was: this doesn’t mean anyone (e.g. pagans) who say they believe in “God” can assert they were also believing in the God of the Trinity? They have to at least be worshipping at least one element of the Trinity? It seems that is a must requirement. So in some sense what I believe God is does matter, in terms of whether or not I believe in at least one element of the Trinity? Hypothetical if someone believed in God the Holy Spirit, they would also be beliving in God the Trinity, but someone who believes in “God of Nature” (trees, etc) would not be beliving in God of Trinity?
 
Pagans are a different class altogether. The Catechism specifies Abrahamic faiths. Faiths who worship the God of Abraham.
 
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Yes, if you read the article I posted, Fesser makes very clear that this does not mean anyone who says they worship something called God, even if they are monotheistic, are worshipping the same God. In particular, he makes the case that Mormons do not worship the same God as we do, but a false God. This is not because of their false notion of a Trinity, as much as their false notion of a Trinity leads them to conclude that God is essentially different than our God. Their God is " creaturely and finite , something which lacks the absolute metaphysical ultimacy that is definitive of God in Catholic theology". Mormans are essentially pagan.
 
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But it doesn’t say that Muslims worship the same God just because they are an Abrahamic faith, but first because the worship the Creator, which has a very definitie meaning in Catholic theology, which is why Mormons do not pass the test (according to Fesser).

CCC 841:
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims . “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
 
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