Once Saved--Always Saved

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Forget it Coach… One cannot be forced into real love…and that is exactly what your God would be doing. What good are a race of robots?

Your whole system is lacking in logic and the knowlege of God. In spite of your examples, which I doubt anyone really fully understands, I will never buy into it.

I think you are just another non-Catholic who HAS TO have answers to the mysteries of God whether they are Biblical or not. I bet you’re also a young earther too, right?

My answer… I don’t even care. I know that God is not forcing me to love Him, but has drawn me to Himself and I by His grace have responded and continue to do so. I don’t have to understand such bunk as this because I have to be about my father’s business. None of this make squat for differance in the way I live or treat my fellow man. This silly waste of time is just another deterent to actually doing what Jesus sent us out to do…bring home the lost to Him.

See ya ‘round…I’m goin’ fishin’ for men…
Pax vobiscum, :cool:
 
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michaelp:
Works are not necessary for justiifcation.

2 Timothy 1:9 He is the one who saved us [aorist/past active] and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Titus 3:5 5 He saved [aorist/past active] us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

[in the Greek, in this Titus verse, Paul uses the pronoun “we” emphatically. It is repreated even though it is inclined to the verb alread. Therefore, Paul is emphatically saying that it is not OUR righteousness, but someone elses. Whose? Christ’s.

**Romans 11:6
And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

**Romans 4:4-5 **4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

But they necessarily follow justification. Salvation is not of works but is unto good works:

**Ephesians 2:8-10 **8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, *it is *the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Lisa, if God is powerful enough to save us, then He is powerful enough to accomplish works through us. I don’t think that He will stop halfway. Do you?

Good to hear from you Lisa, you are always here!!

Michael
Hi MichaelP

St Paul was referencing “works of the law”. He was writing about the Jews belief that the adhering to the precepts of the Law would ensure that they would get to heaven. This is evidenced by the tone of the Pharisee’s prayer when he stood and praised himself in prayer and then ran down the tax collector.

MaggieOH
 
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c0achmcguirk:
Romans 9 deals with your complaint fully:

"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad–in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls–she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-- prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory–even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? "
–Romans 9:11-24

Did Pharaoh have a choice, or did God force his hand?

Did Pontius Pilate and Herod have a choice in killing Jesus? How does one in your position answer Acts 4:27-28?

"Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. "
–Acts 4:27-28

Was God the author of the evils that Joseph’s brothers did to him?

"His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. “We are your slaves,” they said. But Joseph said to them, "Don’t be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. "
–Genesis 50:19-20

Could Joseph’s brothers have thwarted God’s plan and not commit the evil of selling Joseph into slavery?

How about Isaiah 10, which tells us that God makes the Assyrians attack Israel:

"Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations
. "
–Isaiah 10:5-7

Do the Assyrians in Isaiah 10 have a choice? God tells us that he is behind their efforts to “seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets.”

Later in Isaiah 10, God reminds us of man’s place in His plans:

"Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it,
or the saw boast against him who uses it?
As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up,
or a club brandish him who is not wood! "
–Isaiah 10:15

Someone in your position would have us believe that man (the ax) swings God (him who swings it). This is foolishness in light of Scripture.

How does one who believes in libertarian free will account for the passages above? God is clearly teaching us that he “forces” us to do evil to accomplish His work in Romans 9, Genesis 50, Acts 4, and Isaiah 10. If God doesn’t do this, as you claim, then what are these passages saying? How would God’s plans be accomplished if he was at the mercy of our choices?
Romans 9 does not do as you claim. What you do is impose your interpretation upon the Scripture to fit neatly into your system. Yet when Protestants do that you take away from the real meaning of St. Paul’s writings.

God never forces us to do anything. We have free will. How could a God who is all Good force anyone to do evil? IT DOES NOT COMPUTE. The system that you have created and claim to be Christianity is nothing but a sham, it is tinsel. straight out tinsel with little in the way of glitter and nothing of the real stuff to support it.

MaggieOH
 
Hey Coach! You never answered this post of mine…did you miss it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by c0achmcguirk
.
The reason why you shouldn’t be Catholic, is because Rome has a false Gospel that is man-centered and focused on works and meriting salvation with deeds (along with faith, of course). Because this isn’t the true Gospel, and one with this mindset may boast in their works since it is their contribution to their salvation (Eph 2:8-10), this isn’t a true faith in Jesus and His Gospel. Putting your faith in a false Gospel jeopardizes your soul.
c0ach
This is the biggest bunch of anti-Catholic rhetorical BUNK I’ve heard in the last, oh say,…24 hours… If this is why you’re posting here you can pack it in now…We’ve all heard this tripe so many times that we probably know it better than you do. IF you ever really WERE a practicing Catholic then you sure as vitam aeternam wouldn’t be saying such foolish drivel. You sound like someone who has never been in a Catholic Church for Mass or read anything that was written BY real Catholics. Where’d you get all this junk? Jack Chick?:mad:

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif

False Gospel? Who says? You? Lemme just hand you a few NT passages that will refute your false allegation.

We are saved by grace that shows itself by our love in action whan we
do those things that Jesus said would let our light so shine before men
that they may see our good works and glorify the Father in heaven. (Oh
SNAP! You forgot about that passage of the NT didn’t you? Poor
preacher-man…) Here: Look at this and a couple more verses that you
apparently haven’t noticed in that Bible of yours…

Matthew 5:16 So let your light shine before men, that they may see your
good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

2nd Peter 1:10-11 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good
works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these
things, you shall not sin at any time. 11 For so an entrance shall be
ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord
and Saviour Jesus Christ

1st Peter 2:12 Having your conversation good among the Gentiles: that
whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by the good
works, which they shall behold in you, glorify God in the day of
visitation.

Pax vobiscum,
 
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TPJCatholic:
Challenge:

Some Christians hold to the so-called doctrine of “Once saved, always saved–eternal security.” Many of the Christians who believe that doctrine also tend to attack the Roman Catholic faith for what they think are traditions of men. Yet, Catholics **do **accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, which is the only foundation to being saved once and for all according to that doctrine.

So…

why do OSAS care if people are Catholic? QUOTE]
TPJCatholic,
Great question and very well structured.
I dont have time to read all the posts so I will trust that if I am boring no one will bother to read it so all is A -OK.
I believe in once saved always saved. But no one on earth has the wisdom to know about anyone else. I also believe His arm is not short. I also believe that I am on the narrow path. Now will I , in this belief go and be wilfull. No way. What about a few experiements to see what will happen. No way. I have too much Holy Fear to do that. I dont like being taught the same lesson twice. And it hurts.
I am still weak in some areas but I recognise this and I am waiting for His will in these matters and suffer the anguish of being sinfull, mostly overeating. Not that I am the fattest person around, I have always been a blockly build and when God’s grace took smoking away from me, I gave Him my future weight problem. Since then I have never looked at the scales. I am not taking a census and checking on His work. I know by my belts especially that I have been heavier. I once weighed about 87kilos. about 190 pounds. I imagine my weight is now in the vicinity of 170 pounds but bit by bit,little by little I , through His strength , am gaining control. Some things with Him are cold turkey some are slow and gradual. In His time with His wisdom.
Why should one do more if one is saved. Well, in the kingdom of heaven there are jobs. Now any job is fantastic, see when Jesus is talking about John the Baptist, but it is the nature of things that there is a structure. Some will be Kings, some Lords etc. Notice that Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. We have the example of this structure with Moses as he set off into the wilderness and from his father in law’s advice set up a structure. Now I would like to be in the best possible place available to me in this structure. I dont want to give up my available place to someone else and take a lesser position.
If you believe as a Roman Catholic, then you have a whole set of rules to obey and these rules do apply to you because you believe them. Now for myself, I belief in the freedom of Christ and I only have to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit. Hundreds of rules that apply to you and can cost you have no affect on me. I wish you could have this freedom so you could attain your greatest reward possible.
I dont doubt God’s ability to keep those who have been saved and those who will be saved, but He separates the sheep from the sheep as well. When He separates me, I want to go to that place first designated for me, not some lessor position in His glorious kingdom.
Where do you want to go?
Additionally, the more you follow His will the more your life on earth is blessed. I am saved many times ( to my knowledge ) nearly every day. All of this makes my life easier. Who knows how many times He saves me that I am not aware of.
The Holy Spirt leads me daily, away from temptation because He knows how weak I am, to ATM’s that I may make bankings in the kingdom of heaven, and to tribulations that I may grow in Him.
He heals me continuously. I get most of what is going around but it is usually gone in a flash. He continually strengthens me for any work I do. I really mean this. Like my back used to become sore when sweeping and washing dishes for a while at a low sink. Hey presto, no sore back and I can do His work in freedom, strengthened. He strengthened me a couple of weeks ago when I went for a walk in the forest with M6 students. 18-20 years of age, It turned out to be a 7 hour walk that involved going down a mountain side that was quite steep. I tried that some years ago, when I was fitter and that mountain only lasted for 1 hour but my legs were cramping from the unaccustomed walking downhill.This time there was no cramping and I was able to help people.
He , the Holy Spirit continually protects me. When He lifts this , then I discover how weak I really am without His protection.
I wouldnt go down the stairs without Him. I sleep upstairs.
If you want to live your life trusting in your strength , go ahead, but my life is far easier than your life and I have faith in His promise to never leave me. I feel save— forever.
walk in love
grow in Christ
edwin
 
One of my biggest beefs against the man made doctrine of OSAS is that those who propose and expound this heretical doctrine, rip the Scripture apart to suit their own purposes.

Take for example the interpretation that is given on this thread to the events that are reported in the Book of Isaiah. The poster stated: how about in Isaiah where God makes the Assyrians attack Israel. When I saw that statement I nearly choked from the whole idea that God made the Assyrians attack Israel.

What is wrong here is that there seems to be a lack of understanding of what Scripture means by prophecy. Scriptural prophecy is not about events that are in the distant future, rather it is an interpretation of the signs of the times. There are several reasons why the statement is in error:
  1. The Jews of the time believed that God sent punishments for their sins in the form of other nations invading them.
  2. The prophet Isaiah was a reader of the signs of the times. The words of the prophet are his religious interpretation of those signs. The Assyrian army had already plundered other nearby nations, ant that meant that Isaiah could see that if the people did not repent of their evil deeds then they too would be invaded.
The Assyrians were not made to invade Israel at all. That is an interpretation that is reading into the Scripture something that is not there. Here now what is written in Isaiah 10:

“Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger…
I gave him commission against a people that provokes me,
to pillage and to plunder freely
No in his heart was to destroy,
to go on cutting nations to pieces without limit” (Is 10:5-7)

“When the Lord has completed all his work on Mt Zion and in Jerusalem, he will punish what comes from the king of Assyria’s boastful heart, and his arrogant insolence…” (Is 10:12)

The Assyrian invader was Sennacharib. He was invading all the nations and crushing them into the dust, not just Israel and Jerusalem.

The Assyrian king Sennacharib was not forced by God to go and invade Israel. He boasted in the following way:

“By the strength of my own arm I have done this
and by my own intelligence for understanding is mine.” (Is 10:13)

On the other hand, the prophet interpreted the invasion of Israel as a punishment from God because Israel had fallen into apostasy. As a result and this comes through in the writings of the prophets it is believed that God used the Assyrians as a means of punishing those who were not righteous in the eyes of the Lord, even though Sennacharib saw it as though it was he alone who had been the conqueror. Another way of looking at this is to recognize that if Israel had remained faithful to the ways of Yahweh instead of falling into apostasy then God would have spared His people and not let Israel fall into the hands of the enemy.

In conclusion, it cannot be categorically stated that the Assyrians were forced to do evil against their own free will. The Scriptural Truth of the matter is that God used the invading Assyrians as a means of punishing a people who had gone astray and refused to repent of their sin. One of the conclusions that we can draw from this statement those who do not call on the name of the Lord and continue in His ways will fall on bad times. We have witnessed the same thing over and over in the Scripture.
 
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edwinG:
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TPJCatholic:
Challenge:

. In His time with His wisdom.
Why should one do more if one is saved. Well, in the kingdom of heaven there are jobs. Now any job is fantastic, see when Jesus is talking about John the Baptist, but it is the nature of things that there is a structure. Some will be Kings, some Lords etc. Notice that Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. We have the example of this structure with Moses as he set off into the wilderness and from his father in law’s advice set up a structure. Now I would like to be in the best possible place available to me in this structure. I dont want to give up my available place to someone else and take a lesser position.
If you believe as a Roman Catholic, then you have a whole set of rules to obey and these rules do apply to you because you believe them. Now for myself, I belief in the freedom of Christ and I only have to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit. Hundreds of rules that apply to you and can cost you have no affect on me. I wish you could have this freedom so you could attain your greatest reward possible.
I dont doubt God’s ability to keep those who have been saved and those who will be saved, but He separates the sheep from the sheep as well. When He separates me, I want to go to that place first designated for me, not some lessor position in His glorious kingdom.
Where do you want to go?
Additionally, the more you follow His will the more your life on earth is blessed. I am saved many times ( to my knowledge ) nearly every day. All of this makes my life easier. Who knows how many times He saves me that I am not aware of.
The Holy Spirt leads me daily, away from temptation because He knows how weak I am, to ATM’s that I may make bankings in the kingdom of heaven, and to tribulations that I may grow in Him.
He heals me continuously. I get most of what is going around but it is usually gone in a flash. He continually strengthens me for any work I do. I really mean this. Like my back used to become sore when sweeping and washing dishes for a while at a low sink. Hey presto, no sore back and I can do His work in freedom, strengthened. He strengthened me a couple of weeks ago when I went for a walk in the forest with M6 students. 18-20 years of age, It turned out to be a 7 hour walk that involved going down a mountain side that was quite steep. I tried that some years ago, when I was fitter and that mountain only lasted for 1 hour but my legs were cramping from the unaccustomed walking downhill.This time there was no cramping and I was able to help people.
He , the Holy Spirit continually protects me. When He lifts this , then I discover how weak I really am without His protection.
I wouldnt go down the stairs without Him. I sleep upstairs.
If you want to live your life trusting in your strength , go ahead, but my life is far easier than your life and I have faith in His promise to never leave me. I feel save— forever.
walk in love
grow in Christ
edwin
Edwin you do justice to the question in your answer. It shows to me that you have a very strong faith in God and that you understand a lot of things far better than some other posters.

However, you are wrong when you say that Catholics live by hundreds of rules. That is not true. You see we also have a freedom in Christ that is not shared by other denominations. We are not cluttered by rules that are nothing more than second generation laws.

On the contrary, the Catholic Church, through her Magisterium guides us to ensure that we lead moral lives. We have the freedom, given to us by God to either accept or reject those things. It does not mean that we are right if we do reject any of the ideas that have already been studied by the bishops throughout Christendom.

I know you to be one of the sincerest Christian men. I pray that you will come to study what the Catholic Church really has in the way of “rules” and why it is that those rules are not burdensome.

Maggie
 
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c0achmcguirk:
Romans 9 deals with your complaint fully:

How about Isaiah 10, which tells us that God makes the Assyrians attack Israel:

"Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!
I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations
. "
–Isaiah 10:5-7

Do the Assyrians in Isaiah 10 have a choice? God tells us that he is behind their efforts to “seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets.”
Although I have given a response in part to this post, a portion of what is written above is objectionable from the point of view that here is another person who believes in worshipping the Bible as if it is God.

The confusion stems from such statements as "God tells us…"

Wrong, it is the prophet Isaiah that tells us these things. It is the prophet who is interpreting the current events and who proclaims that it is God who is behind what is happening. It is a religious interpretation of the events. However, GOD DID NOT TELL US, for to make that statement is Bible idolatry.

Maggie
 
In Mass this morning, the gospel was the one in Matt. about the sheep and the goats…

In the homily, he said it’s easy for some people to be so focused on praying and worshiping God, that we become narrow minded and forget to serve God. Jesus is clear on how to serve God in the Gospel, and that is by clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, seeing Him in the least of his people. I don’t think by just having faith that you are serving God, or doing His will. Jesus is very clear on this, and constantly mentions helping and serving your bretheren;. Catholics do not believe you can merit salvation by works, but by failing to help people in need, you sin against Him. …that I have sinned through my own faults, in what I have done, and what I have FAILED to do…In the gospel I am referring to, Jesus tells us what happens on judgement day on what we have failed to do.

There are a lot of OSASers out there that do God’s will in life. God love 'em! But let’s all do God’s will; help the least of us, as if you do, you will have done unto Him. This goes if you are Catholic or not!
 
edwin,

What are the “hundreds” of rules that Catholics have to follow, that you feel you do not have to follow?

Can you personally choose to reject God, or has God taken your free will away not that you are “saved?”
 
To all,

There have been many wondeful responses to my question–thank you to all.

I have two problems with OSAS:
  1. If we cannot (not matter what we do or desire) lose our salvation once it is given–doesn’t that take away free will?
  2. If OSAS is true, isn’t that an excuse for millions of people to do nothing for the Lord?
 
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michaelp:
I have had a discussion about this with many people on this forum in the past about Rev. Look at the context very closely and you will see that the only dead that are judged at this judgment is unbeleivers who have experienced the second resurrection. Therefore, the dead here are judged according to their works. The Bible seems to teach two options: 1) Let Christ take your judgement, 2) Be judged according to your works.

These people here in Rev are only those who have not trusted in Christ. Notice as well the book (singlular) and the books (plural). The book (singlular) seems to be a reference to the book of life (mentioned again in Rev 22). If you name is written in this book, you do not experience the judgment by works that are recorded in the books (plural). This is a very interesting separation that John makes between the two.

Hope you are doing well.

Michael
Hi Michael, I am doing very well, thank you.

I know we’re going 'round and 'round on this, and I really appreciate your patience, but it just seems so clear that Revelation 20:13 is stating that “All the dead were judged according to their deeds.”

Just like I wouldn’t expect you to take my word on the real presence of the Eucharist–you would want biblical citations, I would appreciate if you could point out where it’s clear that there are two separate judgments: one for those who accepted Christ and one for those that did not.

You can hopefully see how I would be a little hesitant to accept “The Bible seems to teach two options: 1) Let Christ take your judgement, 2) Be judged according to your works.” If this is my immortal soul on the line, I would want a very clear passage stating this.

Thanks! Always a pleasure! 🙂

Eric
 
Michaelp said something about works=your place in heaven, like you would be a Lord, or some higher ranking heavenite depending on what you did in life.

I don’t buy this…I think we will be there worshipping God, and partaking in the eternal feast of the Lamb…

I dont’ think there will be mansions, and ‘things’.

Is this a typical Protestant view on the afterlife?
 
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ppcpilot:
Michaelp said something about works=your place in heaven, like you would be a Lord, or some higher ranking heavenite depending on what you did in life.

I don’t buy this…I think we will be there worshipping God, and partaking in the eternal feast of the Lamb…

I dont’ think there will be mansions, and ‘things’.

Is this a typical Protestant view on the afterlife?
St. Therese (I think) said something to the effect of those who love greater will have a greater capcity for love in the afterlife. We’ll each be filled with as much love as we can hold, it’s just that some containers will be bigger than others…
 
Hi
Here are the scriptures most of the OSAS churches use to defend there belief.
2 Cor 1:22
Eph 1:13
Eph 4:30
Most of them say it is because they were ‘‘Sealed’’ with the Holy Spirit. But it is clear that there are scriptures that warn us about falling away. We can break those seals.
Luke 3:18
2 Peter 3:17
Paul even says that he brings his body under subjection every day that he might not fall away.
Not losing your salvation sounds nice and secure but it isnt in scripture.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
 
The explanation to all of this is answered by Christ Himself when he cured or the woman caught in adultery He would say go and sin no more. Why say go and sin no more if all one had to do was believe only.
 
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oudave:
Hi
Here are the scriptures most of the OSAS churches use to defend there belief.
2 Cor 1:22
Eph 1:13
Eph 4:30
Most of them say it is because they were ‘‘Sealed’’ with the Holy Spirit. But it is clear that there are scriptures that warn us about falling away. We can break those seals.
Luke 3:18
2 Peter 3:17
Paul even says that he brings his body under subjection every day that he might not fall away.
Not losing your salvation sounds nice and secure but it isnt in scripture.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.
Thanks, Dave. Very helpful.

In your experience, do OSAS adherents really believe it? Or is it something they claim but don’t quite trust? E.g., I know a guy who claims to accept Calvin’s TULIP but he says "total depravity doesn’t really mean ‘absolute depravity’ because there would be no room for grace to work . . .’ So he doesn’t REALLY accept it but he SAYS he accepts it. He’s a very, VERY smart guy, BTW – a young Assemblies of God minister.
 
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ppcpilot:
Michaelp said something about works=your place in heaven, like you would be a Lord, or some higher ranking heavenite depending on what you did in life.

I don’t buy this…I think we will be there worshipping God, and partaking in the eternal feast of the Lamb…

I dont’ think there will be mansions, and ‘things’.

Is this a typical Protestant view on the afterlife?
Hi
Michaelp might be talking about the different Crowns we will recieve,
the crown of life, glory and righteousness. There might be more.
Joh 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

In Him and Only Him, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
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mercygate:
Thanks, Dave. Very helpful.

In your experience, do OSAS adherents really believe it? Or is it something they claim but don’t quite trust? E.g., I know a guy who claims to accept Calvin’s TULIP but he says "total depravity doesn’t really mean ‘absolute depravity’ because there would be no room for grace to work . . .’ So he doesn’t REALLY accept it but he SAYS he accepts it. He’s a very, VERY smart guy, BTW – a young Assemblies of God minister.
Hi
Yes I think that most do believe it, in fact I have ask this question to a baptist friend. What if a guy is a Christian and live’s his life in service to God and then he loses his Wife. He then gets mad at God and turns away from God. My friend said that he was never truly saved in the first place. I dont believe this, I think scripture is very clear on losing your salvation. I was born and raised Baptist so I know about the things that are taught.
In Him and Only Him, Dave.
 
Church Militant:
Forget it Coach… One cannot be forced into real love…and that is exactly what your God would be doing. What good are a race of robots?
It’s not like God holds a gun to our heads and says, “Love me, dang it!” No, God instead takes out our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh, one that desires to love Him (Ez 36:26). We don’t love God against our will…If God draws us, we willingly choose to love Him.
Your whole system is lacking in logic and the knowlege of God. In spite of your examples, which I doubt anyone really fully understands, I will never buy into it.
My system may be lacking in logic, but please show me where. At least try to answer my questions instead of attacking me as a person. I’m really a nice guy. 🙂
I think you are just another non-Catholic who HAS TO have answers to the mysteries of God whether they are Biblical or not.
Actually, I am constantly trying to make sure my beliefs are in line with the Bible–and if the Bible teaches it, I will swallow hard and admit my traditions are wrong.

You accuse me of believing extra-Biblical traditions, yet you won’t answer the questions I raised using the Bible. Quite interesting, don’t you think?
My answer… I don’t even care.
Seems to be a pretty passionate response from someone who doesn’t care… 😉
I know that God is not forcing me to love Him
Yeah, I know He isn’t either. At least not against your will. But how praytell would you know whether you have free will or not? What are some ways you could test it?
See ya ‘round…I’m goin’ fishin’ for men…
As I do too. I hope you don’t think Calvinists are against spreading the Gospel? You see God ordains the ends and the means. Some of the world’s greatest missionaries have been Calvinists.

God bless,
c0ach
 
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