Once Saved, Always Saved

[PatienceAndLove]

I feel awfully left out when what I had hoped would be a helpful post is ignored.

 

[elvisman]

I can accept that you don’t think this is a OSAS issue. But nothing could be further from the truth. Scripture teaches over and over (as I have shown) that we can’t lose our salvation, provided however, our call upon the Lord was sincere in the first place.

And as I have shown - Scripture is resoundingly clear that you CAN lose your salvation.
Your problem - as is the problem with all OSAS adherents - is that you don’t take all of the Scriptures on the subject in context. CONTEXT is key.

As Christians, we know that the Bible cannot copntradict itself and all Scripture must be in harmony with itself.

*Read my last post (#97) where I illustrate to Brian Culliton just how wrong the idea of OSAS is. The following verses speak of having the knowledge (Epignosei) of C***hrist and turning away: **Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22

**These verses speak of having salvation taken away from us of our own free will: ****Matt. 7:19-23, ****Rom. 11:22, **2 Pet. 2:20-22, ****Heb.s 10:26-27,****1 Tim. 4:1, ****Heb. 3:12-14, ****Heb. 6:4-6, ****Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19

Finally - the following verses speak of enduring to the end, otherwise, we WON’T be saved: ****Matt. 10:22, ****Matt. 24:131 John 2:24, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Tim. 4:1

 

[JustaServant]

I am not making any claims about who is or isn’t Christian.

Why are you insulted? You criticized me for saying I am saved because you say no one can know that. I assume then that you do not know if you will be saved, right? So what is your hope? Are you hoping that you will be in a state of grace when you die? What are the odds?

Your quote:

Your hope is like playing the lottery; you buy a ticket and hope you win. **Christian hope **is an expectation of what is sure to come.

Now you’re backpedding, but you can’t go back and do a re-write. The words stand.
How do you make the connection with the word “hope” to gambling?

 

[JustaServant]

Sorry if this was already posted, but here is the Catholic response to “Are you saved?”

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)

Already Saved

Being Saved

Hope that I will be saved

Working out my salvation in fear and trembling

Confidence in the promises of Christ

P&L. your post is the true heart of the matter. It does away with the simplitic evangelical view of salvation, to the one God intended.
This is what it is all about.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Your hope is like playing the lottery; you buy a ticket and hope you win. Christian hope is an expectation of what is sure to come.

Are you going to tell me that Paul “hoped” there would be a resurrection (Acts 24:15), or was he was sure there would be a resurrection?

I share this hope with Paul, and like him I strive to have a conscience without offence toward God and man. So why do you imply I am lazy in my Christian walk?

You are confusing the virtue of hope with the virtue of faith. Paul faithfully believed what the Lord revealed to Him, that there would be a resurrection. Paul’s hope was to be included in that resurrection to eternal life. He had a moral certainty that by remaining faithful he would see that hope come to fruition. That is what is meant by an assurance of salvation… Assurance that Christ will remain faithful to us. Of that there can be no question. Hope drives us to live out our faith.

Peace,
Robert

 

[guanophore]

Once a person is drawn by the Father to Christ, why would they seek anything else? Unfortunately Catholics have no concept of this.

This seems like an awfully bigoted statement, Brian. How do you claim to know the minds and hearts of all Catholics?

How is it that your prejudice leads you to believe that because a person is Catholic, they do not experience satisfaction completely in Christ?

 

[guanophore]

**They never believed him? You can read hearts now, **

How can someone be a disciple if one is not a follower? Why does one follow who does not believe?

ps, your posts are REALLY HARD to edit.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

So you believe we never commit sin again once we accept Jesus. Fine, thats a clear concise statement of your beliefs. We are made perfect correct? Those who are perfect cant commit sin since sin is not perfect and those who are perfect cant sin.

I said nothing of the sort. You should go back and read what I said before posting.

What pleases me is making my Savior proud of me as much as I can but I am realistic enough to know I fall short. And it is PRECISELY at those moments when I fail that I am most grateful to Him that He gave me the gift of His forgiveness. Like Paul I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. You should try it sometime

This is a good example of what I believe and have been saying all along. Somehow you got a completely different understanding. It must be a preconceived notion about what I believe that is messing you up.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

They never believed him? You can read hearts now, can you?
Be very careful with that spiritual pride of yours . . .
As for your perverse and twisted view of free will - let me educate you.

Your comments are directed to the Apostle John not me. I was only stating what he said.

First of all, you claim that real Christians will to be with the Lord and cannot turn away. Is that so? I was hoping you would say something like that so I could explain some of the verses I provided a few posts back. Let’s look at the Greek words in the following verses:

Hebrews 10:26-27
**“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:20-22
***For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. ***
***For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. ***

The Greek word for “knowledge” that is used here is Epignosei, instead of the usual word, Gnosis. Epignosei is a real,** full**** and true experiential** knowledge - not simply a passing knowledge*** (Gnosis)***.
**Definition of Epignosei: **
1) to become thoroughly acquainted with, to know thoroughly
1a) to know accurately, know well

This PROVES the Catholic position that you** CAN**** truly believe in Christ and fall away of your own accord. Nobody can snatch you out of his hand (John 10:28) – but the Scriptures are abundantly** clear that YOU** can walk away.**

What I stated was, true disciples WOULD never turn away. There is no loss of free will for Christians. What you apparently fail to understand about this is that Christians are held to Christ by love, and love produces obedience.

You pointed out in post #82, “All sin is willful disobedience.” So what exactly are you suggesting here with these references? If your interpretation were right nobody would be saved. Fortunately, however, your understanding is unbiblical.

I can only think of one person that fits the description of the person these verses describes, and that person is Judas. It is possible yet at the same time unfathomable to imagine that such a person could exist.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

This seems like an awfully bigoted statement, Brian. How do you claim to know the minds and hearts of all Catholics?

How is it that your prejudice leads you to believe that because a person is Catholic, they do not experience satisfaction completely in Christ?

You are right. I should have said, it has been my experience.

 

[Third_Day]

Those who bear fruit in the Lord do not live in fear of losing their salvation, but rather rejoice in the love of God that was poured out into their hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given to them. Some might think this is absurd, but to us that are saved it is the power of God!

Brian I am sure that you would agree that Paul bore much fruit yet even Paul wasn’t absolutely assured of his salvation. “I am not aware of anything against myself but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronouncement before the Lord comes.” 1 Cor 4:4-5

Seems to me that you are already pronouncing yourself saved yet Paul says we cannot do that. The Lord will judge us.

“I pommel my body and subdue it lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” 1 Cor. 9:27

The Greek word there is adokimos which also means “reprobate.”

It wasn’t until Paul was at the end of his life and in prison when he said " I am already on the point of sacrifice, the time of my departure has come.I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on the Day." 2 Tim 3:6

We need to wait and see if we have fought the good fight and kept the faith and are at the point of being martyred for the faith before we can have confidence that we will be rewarded the crown.

 

[guanophore]

This is a good example of what I believe and have been saying all along. Somehow you got a completely different understanding. It must be a preconceived notion about what I believe that is messing you up.

You seem to have some preconceived notions yourself that are messing you up. Not to mention being insulting to us.

 

[guanophore]

   Your comments are directed to the Apostle John not me.  I was only stating what he said.

No, it is your interpretation of what he said that we are opposing. You see, the Apostle John is Catholic, and there is nothing he wrote that is not Catholic.

 What I stated was, true disciples WOULD never turn away.  There is no loss of free will for Christians.  What you apparently fail to understand about this is that Christians are held to Christ by love, and love produces obedience.

So, according to this logic, you are contradicting yourself. Above you said that the disciples who left were not “true believers”,but the Apostles were. Now, you are saying that the Apostles were never true believers either! They all ran away from Christ on the night of his crucifixion.

 You pointed out in post #82, “All sin is willful disobedience.”  So what exactly are you suggesting here with these references?  If your interpretation were right nobody would be saved.

Do you think that the fact that Christians fall into sin means they cannot be saved?

Fortunately, however, your understanding is unbiblical.

It is certainly quite different than how Calvin constructed the meaning of the Scriptures. Calvin was an attorney, and rejected the Apostolic Teaching on salvation in favor of one that came from his imagination, and pleased him more.

I can only think of one person that fits the description of the person these verses describes, and that person is Judas. It is possible yet at the same time unfathomable to imagine that such a person could exist.

I can believe this. It seems that you need to disregard an immense amount of Scripture to cling to your view.

I would like to know how you dispatch this passage:

1 Peter 4:14-18
14 If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the spirit of glory, which is the Spirit of God, is resting on you. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, a criminal, or even as a mischief maker. 16 Yet if any of you suffers as a Christian, do not consider it a disgrace, but glorify God because you bear this name. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; if it begins with us, what will be the end for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Why does the Apostle tell them not to suffer as a murderer thief, criminal or even a mischief maker? According to your theory, this is impossible, so why clutter up a letter with it?

 

[guanophore]

You are right. I should have said, it has been my experience.

It is a sad fact that the majority of baptized Catholics do not understand grace, nor do they walk by the Spirit.

 

[ignatius777]

I said nothing of the sort. You should go back and read what I said before posting.

This is a good example of what I believe and have been saying all along. Somehow you got a completely different understanding. It must be a preconceived notion about what I believe that is messing you up.

With all due respect if I misunderstand what you are saying that may be as much about what you say as what I hear.

Let me see if I “understand” what you are saying. We are sinners, correct? Then we accept Jesus into our lives and we dont stop being sinners we just stop sinning right? No thats proabably not right because NO ONE would say we stop sinning but protestants believe the sins have already been covered by the blood of Jesus on the cross, isnt that correct? So the sins we are going to commit, because we are sinners, dont anount to a hill of because they have been covered and we cant lose our salvation anyway but then you say if we are sincere about our faith is Jesus we wont want to sin, correct?

Now I wonder why I’d “misunderstand” your position? I am a sinner and I continue to sin but if I sincerely accept Jesus I wont want to sin but I cant say I’m sinless but I just said I’m a sinner. YOU need to help me sort this out.

 

[elvisman]

Your comments are directed to the Apostle John not me. I was only stating what he said.

WRONG. John doesn’t say they never believed. He stated that they would NOT believe - and he was talking about the Eucharistic language of Jesus.

What I stated was, true disciples WOULD never turn away. There is no loss of free will for Christians. What you apparently fail to understand about this is that Christians are held to Christ by love, and love produces obedience.

Yes, but we are not held prisoners. We can walk away whenever we wish.
**God’s grace is a gift - even the grace to believe. How can it be a gift if it is forced upon us ans we cannot refuse it. A gift is only a gift when it can be accepted OR refused. **
Pity you can’t see that.

You pointed out in post #82, “All sin is willful disobedience.” So what exactly are you suggesting here with these references? If your interpretation were right nobody would be saved. Fortunately, however, your understanding is unbiblical.

I can only think of one person that fits the description of the person these verses describes, and that person is Judas. It is possible yet at the same time unfathomable to imagine that such a person could exist.

Unbiblical?? All sin IS willful disobedience.**
Show me ONE place in Scripture that talks about sin being accidental. Sin not something that we don’t will to do - it is something that we do willfully.

**You say that if this were true - nobody would be saved. That is a completely unbiblical view of sin and forgiveness. This is PRECISELY why Scripture tells us that we DO fall and need to repent of it. We don’t repent only ONCE in life - but every time we sin. As sinners, we are in constant need of forgiveness that only comes with repentance.

In 1 Tim. 1:15, even Paul admitted to being a sinner: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

---

How dare YOU claim that you aren’t. THAT is spiritual pride . . .

 

[guanophore]

**WRONG**. **Yes, but we are not held prisoners**.  We can walk away whenever we wish.

God’s grace is a gift - even the grace to believe. How can it be a gift if it is forced upon us ans we cannot refuse it. A gift is only a gift when it can be accepted OR refused.
Pity you can’t see that.

I bet Brian believes in shotgun weddings!
elvisman;7709593:

 **Unbiblical??  All sin* IS***

willful disobedience.
Show me ONE place in Scripture that talks about sin being accidental. Sin not something that we don’t will to do - it is something that we do willfully.

Not all sin is mortal (deliberate and willful). Original sin is not, and venial sins are not.

Luke 12:46-48
47 That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.

Both slaves fall short, but only one has knoweldge, and that one is more culpable.

John 19:10-12
11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

The more a person has authority and knowledge, the more guilt is imputed for the sin.

1 Peter 1:14-16
14 Like obedient children, do not be conformed to the desires that you formerly had in ignorance. 15 Instead, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; 16 for it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Living according to the desires of the flesh is a sin, but many do so in ignorance, not knowing how to be holy.

Eph 2:1-3

You were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once lived, following the course of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. 3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else.

This state of sin results from ignorance, in most cases. People who are living according to the flesh don’t need to make a willful choice to disobey God. It just comes naturally. The flesh is set against the Spirit.

 

[Carlan]

I feel awfully left out when what I had hoped would be a helpful post is ignored.

Yes well Patience and Love, Many times it happens that 4 0r 5 Posters will begin to dominate in these discussions, but that is not a bad thing ,we all come away learning so much and hopefully conversions to Christ’s full Truth will happen.
I just want to let you know I appreciate your and other posters contributions to the forums.
There are thousands reading these threads and many are touched that we are not aware of, God bless you PL, Peace, Carlan

 

[guanophore]

I feel awfully left out when what I had hoped would be a helpful post is ignored.

I don’t think any of us can assume that our posts are ignored just because they don’t get a response in the thread. There are usually about 10 X more lurkers reading than there are participants. When you prayerfully and studiously construct such a post, save a copy for yourself, and then trust that whoever needs to benefit from it will do so. You have cast your bread upon the waters.

 

[SnakeMauler]

I seriously doubt I’d go to heaven right now. I’m like Adam hiding from the Lord. I want grace deep down inside but I’m so weak and disgusting.