Once Saved Always Saved?

[tqualey]

Hi, Jim Dandy,

Prise God for His many Graces!

Thank you for sharing this personal experience.

God bless

1 John 5:13 RSV - I write this so you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.

Mt 19:16-17 - . . . Teacher, what good deed must I do. to have eternal life? . . . If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

I know I have eternal life as long as I keep His commandments and fulfill other requirements. But I can’t be metaphysically certain that I will always do so. I know this moment that I am in the state of grace; but I can’t be certain that I will always resist temptation in the future – even the near future. Like all human beings, I suffer from the effects of Original Sin – I am inclined to sin and in need of God’s grace

I cut my teeth on OSAS, born and raised Southern Baptist, and believed that come-lately doctrine for too many years. I know now that it was invented in the 16th century. Jesus and the Apostles didn’t teach it. Deo gratias!

I came to view it as man’s way of imagining that he controls God. According to OSAS, once a person accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, God suspends His commandments and MUST allow him into heaven, whether he does the will of His Father or not (Mt 7:21), and no matter the sins he may commit thereafter. Luther wrote - “It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” Calvin’s accomplices dubbed his concept Perseverance of the Saints.

Protestant denominations fight among themselves over this doctrine, slinging Bible verses at each other. One example is the book, *The Believers Conditional Security - A study on perseverance and falling away *by Daniel D. Corner, a Protestant minister, published by Evangelical Outreach. It’s 800 pages of why OSAS is wrong.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[PRmerger]

There is none who seeks after God… (Rom 3:11). So men have a diminished ability to choose God, according to you, and according to Scripture, men have no desire to seek God. Hmmmm.

You don’t seek after God?

I am simply incredulous.

I think that you have an erroneous interpretation of Romans 3:11 that is in blatant contradiction to the Scriptures as a whole.

To wit:

“But from there [the land of Israel] you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find him, if you search after Him with all your heart and with all your soul.”–Deuternomy 4:9

“Let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice!** Seek the Lord** and His strength, seek His presence continually!”–1 Chron 16:10-11

“And those who had set their hearts** to seek the Lord God **of Israel…”-2 Chron 11:16

“The hand of our God is for good upon** all that seek Him…**.”–Ezra 8:22

 

[PRmerger]

MORE verses which speak to our seeking after God!

Psalm 9:10 - “For Thou, O Lord, hast not forsaken those who seek Thee.”

Prov 28:5 - “…but **those who seek the Lord **understand it [justice] completely.”

Amos 5:4 - “For thus says the Lord…’Seek me and live.’”

Zeph 2:3 - “Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land who do His commands.”

Matt 6:33 - “But seek ye first His kingdom and His righteousness…”

Matt 7:7-8 - “Seek and you shall find…for he who seeks finds.”

Heb 11:6 - “For whoever would draw near to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him.”

 

[PRmerger]

That is what I was responding to.

So yes, we have a diminished ability to choose Good until we receive sanctifying grace through baptism.

That does not translate to “we do not have free will until we are baptized.”

 

[Sig]

That’s what the Bible says.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:6-7[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

I know what’s being said in Scripture, and it’s pointless for you to quote those passages because we don’t agree on their meaning.

I’m simply interested in your take, and Scripture does not say we are saved by works, partly or otherwise, but by grace, through faith, apart from works (Eph 2:8ff).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lisa44,

This is an incredible distortion of what I said.

Since you claim to be Catholic, maybe you should review what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about each of us having a free will. Here is a link you may find instructive: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a3.htm

God bless

So what you are telling me is you and God are partners and you do things together? You have your (name removed by moderator)ut and he has his? And together you rule the universe?

 

[PRmerger]

This Catholic says he is partly saved by his works:

Seems Catholics might be guilty of what they say protestants are guilty of regarding what the great differences of opinion concerning what the Scriptures say.

I think you see a contradiction where there is none.

We are not saved by our works. Alone.

Both PaulC and all orthodox Catholics will agree with that. But our works do save us. There is no denying that. It is in Scripture. (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24) It’s just not our works **alone **that save us.

Just like if someone says, “Are you saved by declaring with our mouths”? The Catholic answer is yes. But just not by declaring with our mouths alone.

 

[Sig]

You don’t seek after God?

I am simply incredulous.

I’m never cease to be amazed at this type of response. I suggest you study the contex of the passages you’ve cited, and pray for understanding.

 

[Sig]

I think you see a contradiction where there is none.

I didn’t say anything about a contradiction, but a disagreement.

We are not saved by our works. Alone.

I know. You said you were not saved by your works, “completely.”

That indicates that you are saved by works, PARTLY. Right?

Both PaulC and all orthodox Catholics will agree with that. But our works do save us. There is no denying that. It is in Scripture. (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24) It’s just not our works **alone **that save us.

Right. In spite of the fact that Scripture says salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works.

 

[paul_c]

You said the unbaptized don’t have free will. That includes unbaptized adults.

This is wrong. Everyone has free will…

 

[PRmerger]

I In spite of the fact that Scripture says salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works.

Well, first you’ll have to answer the question I posed in post #275 as to how you know that this is what Scripture says. How is it that you know that these words are* theopneustos?*

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
I think this is the perfect time to give you the summarized view of Catholic Sotierology.

Sig,

I said what is above and I’m highighting in RED what I wanted you to take away from it:
So you see, works do not save us. What saves us is our desire for God’s grace (Faith). But indeed, it is works of love that keep us safe.

You incorrectly interpreted what I said this way:]This Catholic says he is partly saved by his works:

Now if you can’t understand what I said in plain English, why are you so confident that you understand scripture properly…

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sig,

Yes, we are saved by Grace - but, not only by Grace! We have to cooperate with the Grace of God or we fail.

Here is an instructive link to show you why this is scripturaly based: catholic.com/magazine/articles/it%E2%80%99s-not-over-%E2%80%98til-it%E2%80%99s-over

God bless

By grace you have been saved through faith, not by works.

Don’t include me in your use of “we.” While you may not know any of those things, I do know them, and I know what Scripture says concerning them, and I have complete assurance because my complete reliance for salvation is in God, and not in me.

Believe me, if it were possible to lose salvation, I would lose it. I’m not righteous enough, not good enough. God must save, and keep me by grace, as He promised, or I’m doomed, amen.

Have you read the passage, because that’s not the point of the passage according to Jesus. Jesus starts out the passage making His point in v44, and reiterating the point in v65.

Here’s Jesus’ point: ”No one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father” (v 65).

Yes they are. You had to engage in some sort of private interpretation of both scripture and history, and then, volitionally choose to become a Catholic.

You may not be aware of that truth, but trust me, you’ve all done it.

And let me add there’s no shame in doing that. All you lose is the ability to wag you finger at others and accuse them of doing what you, yourself, do.

 

[fhansen]

Why is it so hard to say that God saves us? Why do we have to consider ourselves part of that salvation? I’m just curious.

Well I could turn the question around. Why is it so hard to consider that God might want to use us in our salvation? I could care less how He does it-but I can certainly see the wisdom in doing it the way the CC teaches. Let me ask you this: if God doesn’t care about our wills being involved, why do you think He bothered with the whole drama?-exiling man from the garden into a world of pain, suffering, and death. If salvation is merely by divine whim, why not just prevent Adam & Eve from sinning to begin with, or forgiving them immediately? Or why not just create a heaven and stock it with the people you’ve predetermined to put there, and create hell and put the rest there? This world has a singular purpose-to teach us what Adam & Eve didn’t grasp-that we need God-after living a life without Him, going our own way, determining right and wrong for ourselves and seeing just what all the human will gets us. So that we can decide. After eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil man entered a state where he literally, directly *knows *-experientially -good and evil. In that sense nothing’s ever changed here on earth. We decide whether or not we’ll choose life over death, good over evil, God over no God, but with His necessary help.

 

[fhansen]

Actually, Scripture says that men are saved by grace through faith, and not by cross-bearing, and I’ve read the parable of the talents, and do not consider the point of the parable to be an exposition on how one is saved, which salvation has always come by grace through faith in God.

So what does the Parable of the Talents mean to you? For what reason is it included? What about the Prodigal Son? Was there any reason for him to experience life in a pigsty? Why didn’t Jesus say, OK you guys are going to heaven and the rest go to hell? Party’s over -everybody can go home now. I’ll be making the same determinations for all future generations, too, BTW.

 

[tqualey]

Hi Sig,

Mortal sin is the death of grace in the soul.

The 25th Chapter of Matthew contains three stories on people with the idea that they were saved - only to find out that they weren’t. Here is a link: usccb.org/bible/matthew/25

The parable of the five foolish virgins apparently were pretty good girls, after all, they were invited to the wedding - but note, it was conditional: they had to be ready to greet the Bridegroom. Alas, they failed in this regard - the ‘work’ of bringing oil for their lamps was not done. By the time they thought they had gotten their act together - they had run out of time, and the door to Heaven was shut aginst them.

The parable the talents is stricter still! Here are three servants in the Master’s house - who all knew the Master - and were called in and given an assignment to ‘work’. While we could say that 2/3 of the servants were successful - the attention is really given to the ‘lazy’ servant who knew what his Master wanted, yet refused to provide it by burying the talent given to him. Note, this servant is thrown out…" into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Hardly a desirable end for someone who was already a servant in the Master’s house.

Finally, we have the General Judgment and all of us are involved. It is noteworthy that Faith by itself is not the issue for salvation - rather it is seeing Christ (Faith) in others and then feeding, clothing, visiting and comforting them in their various distresses. Those who are damned - in mortal sin - may be accused of lacking Faith - but, this is not clear. What is clear is that they did not put their Faith into action (works! ). The idea that one can ‘buy’ their salvation through ‘works’ is totally falses - and rightly condemned by both Protestants and Catholics. The idea that one can sit on their hands and claim to have Faith, yet refuse to do anything to build up the Kingdom of God is equally false and is condemned by Jesus Christ and the the Church He founded on Peter: the Cathoic Church.

God bless

And what is this sin according to John, and where in that passage does John say what kind of death that sin brings, either physical, or eternal?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Sig,

It appears that your reading is hightly selective … and you apparently missed these parts:

**Matt 10:38
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Mark 8:34
34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23
23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.
**

Faith is surely requried as the manner in which Grace is received - but, look what Christ says - you must do something. The 1st Century Jews were quite knowledgeable about what the ‘cross’ was - the horrid tool of Roman public humiliation and execution - and something that no one would wish for themselves. Yet, Christ makes this a requirement - and something that is done not only with regularity, but done daily!

God bless

Actually, Scripture says that men are saved by grace through faith, and not by cross-bearing, and I’ve read the parable of the talents, and do not consider the point of the parable to be an exposition on how one is saved, which salvation has always come by grace through faith in God.

 

[Sig]

Sig,

I said what is above and I’m highighting in RED what I wanted you to take away from it:
So you see, works do not save us. What saves us is our desire for God’s grace (Faith). But indeed, it is works of love that keep us safe.

You incorrectly interpreted what I said this way:]This Catholic says he is partly saved by his works:

Now if you can’t understand what I said in plain English, why are you so confident that you understand scripture properly…

I didn’t misunderstand you at all.

You said you’re not saved by works: PRmerger says you’re partly saved by works. I was pointing out the disagreement between the two of you.

Now if you can’t understand what I said in plain English, why are you so confident that you understand scripture properly…

Answered above: The misunderstanding is yours.

Guess your inability to understand plain English means I’m free to disregard anything you say, eh?

 

[Sig]

Well, first you’ll have to answer the question I posed in post #275 as to how you know that this is what Scripture says. How is it that you know that these words are* theopneustos?*

Because they’re written by Paul, and Peter says Paul’s writings are Scripture (2 Pet 3:16).

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lisa44,

GOD SAVES US! You see, that was not hard at all.

The only issue is that while that is a complete sentence - it is not the total answer. So a more accurate statement would be: GOD SAVES US through the Grace He gives us to cooperate with Him saving us. God will not save us against our will (ah, yes, there is that pesky ‘free will thing’ again! )

By the way, I noticed that you chose to respond … so, I guess that is objective evidence of you actually having free will!

God bless

Why is it so hard to say that God saves us? Why do we have to consider ourselves part of that salvation? I’m just curious.