Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[lcburgundy]

There is so much we don’t know. Is it even possible Martin knew who Zimmerman was in the gated community and being invovled in NW?? Could Martin know Zimmerman had made phone calls numerous times to report people??

Given that TM was only in Sanford because he had been kicked out of school and that it was his dad’s girlfriend’s house, I find the idea that TM would possibly know about the whole NW program or GZ pretty implausible.

One could make a case, running away reflects Martin thought Zimmerman’s behavior was menacing.

Not menacing enough to stay away from GZ, apparently. If you think there’s a menacing person pursuing people around, wouldn’t you call 911 instead of returning to where that person was?

One of the witnesses reports hearing a scuffle, wrestling in the grass and almost thought it would come through the window. This means both sides could have exchanged whose on top and bottom.

Except that the back of GZ’s jacket had grass stains and so did TM’s knees, but not on GZ’s knees and not on TM’s back. There just isn’t a lot of hard evidence to put TM on the bottom at any point during the struggle. And if GZ was trying to do anything offensive before the shot, there was no evidence left of it on TM’s body.

Zimmerman has a broken nose, abrasions on the back of the head. A kid fell off their bike a week ago and skinned their knee up, happens all the time. None of this says Martin was the aggressor in starting a fight.

No, but it does say Martin was an aggressor during the fight and was winning.

I don’t recall the attorneys spending a lot of time saying Martin started this fight as the aggressor.

They wouldn’t because it’s not particularly relevant to self-defense law. Defense lawyers are paid to defend against real legal claims, not strawmen dreamed up on a forum somewhere.

 

[SamH]

Yes he did profile Martin. I agree with that.

And? That’s hardly a bad thing. Especially considering how accurately he profiled him.

 

[LisaA]

This is all from GZ’s perspective. Where’s the likely perspective of TM?

This is so pointless. “Perspective?” What are you talking about? When there is a murder trial, the victim rarely rises from his coffin to testify.

That’s why we have trials and juries and judges and witnesses and most important, the prosecutor to bring out Martin’s perspective.

So you cannot claim Martin’s “perspective” was not represented. He had Angela Corey creating a case out of whole cloth (subsequently up on charges herself for NOT providing Zimmerman’s “perspective” by hiding evidence). He had various black “leaders” providing his “perspective” by making shrill and baseless charges such as “Trayvon was hunted down like a dawg…” This from a member of Congress no less. We have Obama providing Martin’s “perspective” in claiming if he had a son, the son would look like Martin. We had a VERY determined and vigorous prosecution when everyone said they had no case. We had a list of witnesses for the prosecution who provided Martin’s “perspective.”

Are you unaware of how strongly and vigorously these cases are prosecuted and how the prosecution feels a duty to speak for the victim?

Martin’s “perspective” has seen a lot more exposure than Zimmerman’s. He had an outstanding defense team but in the court of public opinion he’s been treated with incredible animus.

Lisa

 

[SamH]

Given his actions, I come up with only one idea of Martin’s perspective. everyone here has said it make sense forMartin to feel afraid of Zimmerman–OK, I get that.

What I don’t understand is why, if Martin was afraid of Zimmerman, he *returned *to where Zimmerman was, why he (Martin) went to a *dark *place. These are not the actions of someone who is afraid of someone.

Quit

Stop

You are using logic, that’s not allowed on this thread anymore.

 

[BroomWagon]

Quit

Stop

You are using logic, that’s not allowed on this thread anymore.

You really nailed that one Sam H.

We all know the facts clearly state Trayvon Martin was waiting in a dark place for Zimmerman.

Unless we are saying nightfall creates a darkness in general. Really makes me wonder how well lit things were.

 

[LisaA]

Yes he did profile Martin. I agree with that.

For his behavior, not his race. Profiling for behavior is the reason the Israeli troops are so successful in preventing would be terrorists from entering airports or schools. There is absolutely nothing wrong with profiling by behavior and that is exactly what Zimmerman did that night. He wasn’t even sure about Martin’s race initially and said in a very hesitant tone “he LOOKS black…”

It wasn’t even the hoodie…did Zimmerman report a guy in a hoodie with a sack of groceries? He reported on his odd behavior and since he didn’t recognize him in the small gated community, he was suspicious. I think being observant and reporting suspicious individuals or behavior is appropriate if not the duty of residents. I know I would

Lisa

 

[lcburgundy]

This is so pointless. “Perspective?” What are you talking about? When there is a murder trial, the victim rarely rises from his coffin to testify.
Lisa

I’ve presented several hypotheticals of what TM’s testimony could have been and then asked what the effect on anything such testimony could have had and of course I don’t get a substantive response – just more patently dishonest responses and dissembling. I’m not sure what TM himself could have added that would have changed the case’s outcome. The prosecution definitely wanted to present the perspective that TM was killed in an unjustifiable manner. That’s what their entire case was about.

 

[St_Francis]

You really nailed that one Sam H.

We all know the facts clearly state Trayvon Martin was waiting in a dark place for Zimmerman.

Unless we are saying nightfall creates a darkness in general. Really makes me wonder how well lit things were.

I did not say Martin was waiting for Zimmerman. We do, however, know that after running away from Zimmerman, presumably in fear of Zimmerman, instead of running *further *away, Martin *returned; *instead of finding a *safe *place, Martin was in a *dark *place.

There were areas which were better lit than the back paths in between the backs of the homes. Like the streets in front of the homes. Like the main street just beyond the complex, the back entrance of which was beyond Martin’s father’s fiancee’s home (altho he might not have known that).

It’s just that it strikes me as very odd that Martin returned to what would arguably be the *least *safe place.

 

[LisaA]

I’ve presented several hypotheticals of what TM’s testimony could have been and then asked what the effect on anything such testimony could have had and of course I don’t get a substantive response – just more patently dishonest responses and dissembling. I’m not sure what TM himself could have added that would have changed the case’s outcome. The prosecution definitely wanted to present the perspective that TM was killed in an unjustifiable manner. That’s what their entire case was about.

And they did well with what they had to work with. Even the “dissenting” jury member said she thought the entire thing was a publicity stunt and that given the law and the circumstances, Zimmerman was not guilty. It became clear early on that there wasn’t a case and thus Zimmerman wasn’t charged initially. In fact didn’t the Police Chief get fired for not charging Zimmerman? It was such a clearly political move on the part of Corey aided and abetted by the race hustlers. Right, left or center, legal experts said it would be very difficult to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt…

Our system although imperfect provides safeguards for defendants while allowing the prosecution to speak for the victim. I don’t know why some cannot accept that Martin had “his day in court” and there was not sufficient evidence to convict Zimmerman

Lisa

 

[MaryT777]

You really believe that you have documented them? No you have just stated that he lied and ignored those who pointed out that you were wrong in your assumptions.

Yes I have several times.

 

[Robert_Sock]

This is so pointless. “Perspective?” What are you talking about? When there is a murder trial, the victim rarely rises from his coffin to testify.

That’s why we have trials and juries and judges and witnesses and most important, the prosecutor to bring out Martin’s perspective.

So you cannot claim Martin’s “perspective” was not represented. He had Angela Corey creating a case out of whole cloth (subsequently up on charges herself for NOT providing Zimmerman’s “perspective” by hiding evidence). He had various black “leaders” providing his “perspective” by making shrill and baseless charges such as “Trayvon was hunted down like a dawg…” This from a member of Congress no less. We have Obama providing Martin’s “perspective” in claiming if he had a son, the son would look like Martin. We had a VERY determined and vigorous prosecution when everyone said they had no case. We had a list of witnesses for the prosecution who provided Martin’s “perspective.”

Are you unaware of how strongly and vigorously these cases are prosecuted and how the prosecution feels a duty to speak for the victim?

Martin’s “perspective” has seen a lot more exposure than Zimmerman’s. He had an outstanding defense team but in the court of public opinion he’s been treated with incredible animus.

Lisa

The bottom line is that we do not know TM’s perspective in the 4 minutes of dead time between the time GZ’s call to the dispatcher to the time the police arrived. Surely such a perspective is real, but unknowable because TM is dead. Why don’t people on this forum acknowledge the fact that TM had a perspective too?

 

[BroomWagon]

I think this is a noteworthy point,

Trayvon Martin doubles back, a number of maps show this, I concede this.

As to full-interpretation, that I’m not as sure about.

–

Okay, back later.

Except, i think there is a lot that points to TM maybe being or was a sort of bad guy in his demeanor and conduct, I just feel hesitant about judging too much on this. And then, that is when an LEO, Law Enforcement Officer should evaluate the situation versus another person, Zimmerman, whose own troubles may have been a long time ago but those troubles in themselves are rather serious.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The bottom line is that we do not know TM’s perspective in the 4 minutes of dead time between the time GZ’s call to the dispatcher to the time the police arrived. Surely such a perspective is real, but unknowable because TM is dead. Why don’t people on this forum acknowledge the fact that TM had a perspective too?

Who are we going to trust then? Everyone knows this system is far from perfect. Just like probable cause. And the system is loaded with those who cry injustice.

1] Which is why one needs to be aware of himself and his interaction in the community with their own behavior, image, attitude.

2] And we certainly do not need to empower this administration anymore than we have. It lead to point 1.

3] The real issue is unaddressed, namely the disconnected youth who clutter the system and why. Course there are many reasons, negative role models, dysfunctional families, and so on and so forth. What is the government doing here? In fact the real help is being cut yearly. So empower the government? I disagree.

4] This is a USA issue not an exclusive race issue. Again our leader and his minions are wrong.

 

[LisaA]

The bottom line is that we do not know TM’s perspective in the 4 minutes of dead time between the time GZ’s call to the dispatcher to the time the police arrived. Surely such a perspective is real, but unknowable because TM is dead. Why don’t people on this forum acknowledge the fact that TM had a perspective too?

Why do you obsess over the 4 minutes? What significance is that and how in the world does it provide Martin’s “perspective?” He was still on the phone with Jeantel after the initial encounter with Zimmerman and after he had fled. If we knew where he was and what he was doing during this time gap how would it change anything? We know Zimmerman continued on the phone with the dispatcher after Martin fled. I don’t think there is nearly as much time “unaccounted for” as you keep claiming.

You really don’t have any “case” to make so you are focused solely on a few minutes where the only apparent eyewitness was Zimmerman. However the testimony, forensic evidence, recorded calls all indicate that Martin returned to confront Zimmerman and an altercation resulted. Further the testimony and forensic evidence supports Martin being the instigator of the fight…although it doesn’t matter from a legal perspective.

How would you feel better about this case if you were a fly on the wall, following Martin’s every move? What do YOU think he was doing during the four minutes (if indeed that is the time unaccounted for?). What do you think Zimmerman was doing? Why does it matter.

You need to come up with more than speculation and assumption.

Lisa

 

[lcburgundy]

The bottom line is that we do not know TM’s perspective in the 4 minutes of dead time between the time GZ’s call to the dispatcher to the time the police arrived. Surely such a perspective is real, but unknowable because TM is dead. Why don’t people on this forum acknowledge the fact that TM had a perspective too?

Oh, the prosecution definitely presented TM’s perspective, there’s just not much you can do to portray that “gap” in his perspective’s favor without grossly contradicting what evidence you do have. I can’t imagine what credible testimony TM himself could have offered that would have accounted for it. I mean, I’ve thought about this and haven’t come up with anything that would have put him within arm’s reach of GZ after he had gotten away from him once that didn’t cast more doubt on TM’s own conduct.

 

[adrift]

Quit

Stop

You are using logic, that’s not allowed on this thread anymore.

:tsktsk: :nope:

 

[MaryT777]

Um, no, that site would know nothing of why the case settled. That site is like a newsletter. The case was never tried and I don’t think an iota of discovery even occurred. Speculation on why it settled is not why it settled.

How quaint, another person who thinks the police are there to protect them. Have you ever called the police about a drunken violent person on your property only to wait a half hour for them to show up? I’m guessing not.

So then what? Take the law into your own hands and shoot them like Z did? No that’s not
the answer to the problem in my opinion.

I have never said the police are here to protect people. That might be the quaint thought of another poster but I certainly never said it.

Without a police force the next best scenario is every man for himself vigilante justice which could be dangerous according to some If you project the wrong Image. That said some prefer it which is why Zimmerman did what he did in my opinion (one less thug in the neighborhood since some think he was properly profiled) and now he is not really a free man for the same reason. People demand justice where they perceive it was not done.

I agree the police cannot be everywhere but they are less likely to get over hyped up and shoot people for they are trained in ways to handle adverse situations. That I do like to think however maybe not.

I don’t post personal experiences on the internet for it’s not my nature regarding my
interaction or lack thereof with the police.

 

[adrift]

Except, i think there is a lot that points to TM maybe being or was a sort of bad guy in his demeanor and conduct, I just feel hesitant about judging too much on this. And then, that is when an LEO, Law Enforcement Officer should evaluate the situation versus another person, Zimmerman, whose own troubles may have been a long time ago but those troubles in themselves are rather serious.

I got in trouble for this before but I still believe that TM was behaving as a typically immature teenager. It is a tragedy that it cost him his life. Most of us do not pay for the stupid things we did as teens.

Disclaimer: This is only speaking to those of us who did stupid things as teens. If you avoided this than:thumbsup:

 

[LisaA]

So then what? Take the law into your own hands and shoot them like Z did? No that’s not
the answer to the problem in my opinion.

What ARE you talking about? It’s baffling the way you keep claiming that Zimmerman “took the law into his own hands and shot Martin.” Now if Zimmerman had seen Martin breaking into a home and shot him that would be taking the law into his own hands. If Zimmerman had shot him for wandering around aimlessly that would have been taking the law into his own hands.

However self defense is not!

Why do you conflate self defense, which is our right, with acting as a self appointed policeman? These are completely different situations.

Lisa

 

[SamH]

So then what? Take the law into your own hands and shoot them like Z did? No that’s not
the answer to the problem in my opinion.
.

What law did he take into his own hands? The claim makes absolutely no sense.