Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[MaryT777]

Oh, the prosecution definitely presented TM’s perspective, there’s just not much you can do to portray that “gap” in his perspective’s favor without grossly contradicting what evidence you do have. I can’t imagine what credible testimony TM himself could have offered that would have accounted for it. I mean, I’ve thought about this and haven’t come up with anything that would have put him within arm’s reach of GZ after he had gotten away from him once that didn’t cast more doubt on TM’s own conduct.

I’ve also thought about this and I can think of many reasons why TM went back.
That said no need to go back if you’re not followed around like a criminal. Z overstepped his role which in my opinion which is about as close as a police officer as he was ever going to get as NW captain.

I can imagine a lot of credible testimony TM could have given. But then, I’ve not only just thought about it but watched the trial, read the testimonies etc.

We can’t start a precedent where perceived bad conduct is a reason to kill someone.
We can’t start a precedent where “you have the wrong image” or you fit the “profile” of someone like Z who is by far no profiling expert.

That said, Z may have taken a class in it and forgot about it with his bad memory like the class addressing self defense laws. Maybe it wasn’t a lie but his bad memory.
Hopefully most NW persons in a 3 street neighborhood can learn the street names and where they are next round for the next NW captain.

 

[Cruciferi]

My advice is to stop discussing this subject. The NSA watches these kind of discussions and it doesn’t help we’re all Catholic.

Personally, I don’t respond or discuss any hot online subjects for fear of being put on a list.

A word to the wise: Remain silent quite and hidden.

 

[SamH]

I’ve also thought about this and I can think of many reasons why TM went back.; to see if he’s gone yet, still following him, is he armed, what’s he doing, who is he , avoid going to the house to see if he follows you there and thus knows where you live, etc.
.

So what you are saying it TM did exactly what you accused Zimmerman of doing?

 

[lcburgundy]

I have never said the police are here to protect people. That might be the quaint thought of another poster but I certainly never said it.

The police are useful, but the reality is they are mostly investigators and clean up crew. The police have no legal responsibility to provide protection to individuals. Their existence is probably a deterrent to some extent, but they very rarely actually respond to hot violent crime scenes. This case was no exception to that. You are responsible for your own defense. This may involve whatever form of self-defense you are willing to engage in up to the limits of the law. This may involve doing nothing but calling the police. But in the end, it’s up to you and it’s your responsibility.

 

[LisaA]

I got in trouble for this before but I still believe that TM was behaving as a typically immature teenager. It is a tragedy that it cost him his life. Most of us do not pay for the stupid things we did as teens.

Disclaimer: This is only speaking to those of us who did stupid things as teens. If you avoided this than:thumbsup:

I resemble that remark

I think on hindsight that Martin was wandering around talking to Jeantel. For whatever reason he didn’t want to return home to continue the call. Jeantel said they had been talking off and on for some time. But not knowing the context, Zimmerman saw a stranger in his neighborhood who seemed to be looking around, looking into homes, not on the sidewalk, not seeming to progress toward any destination. From his perspective it looked suspicious.

As to the fight, as we know from science and brain scans, the area of the brain that regulates impulse and behavior matures later than other areas. A teen is really a child in the sense of impulse control even if he is physically an adult as was Martin. It sounds as if he was angry at being followed. He may have thought Zimmerman suspected him because he was black and angry about that… But again even if his impulse were to show the crazy a** crackah the error of his ways, a mature adult would have stood down. Zimmerman may have been annoying but he was no threat.

Again a perfect storm of two paths crossing at a bad time and with disastrous results

Lisa .

 

[MaryT777]

I got in trouble for this before but I still believe that TM was behaving as a typically immature teenager. It is a tragedy that it cost him his life. Most of us do not pay for the stupid things we did as teens.

Disclaimer: This is only speaking to those of us who did stupid things as teens. If you avoided this than:thumbsup:

So typically immature teenagers walk home in the rain with skittles and iced tea and end up dead for that?
: That is my opinion alone. I don't see that being the case thank goodness or most teens would be in grave danger for their lives.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Why do you obsess over the 4 minutes? What significance is that and how in the world does it provide Martin’s “perspective?” He was still on the phone with Jeantel after the initial encounter with Zimmerman and after he had fled. If we knew where he was and what he was doing during this time gap how would it change anything? We know Zimmerman continued on the phone with the dispatcher after Martin fled. I don’t think there is nearly as much time “unaccounted for” as you keep claiming.

You really don’t have any “case” to make so you are focused solely on a few minutes where the only apparent eyewitness was Zimmerman. However the testimony, forensic evidence, recorded calls all indicate that Martin returned to confront Zimmerman and an altercation resulted. Further the testimony and forensic evidence supports Martin being the instigator of the fight…although it doesn’t matter from a legal perspective.

How would you feel better about this case if you were a fly on the wall, following Martin’s every move? What do YOU think he was doing during the four minutes (if indeed that is the time unaccounted for?). What do you think Zimmerman was doing? Why does it matter.

You need to come up with more than speculation and assumption.

Lisa

Again, your treating GZ’s perspective as fact, while ignoring TM’s perspective. We simply do not know why TM confronted GZ. It could have simply have been to ask him why he was following him. GZ could easily have instigated the fight.

Yes, TM’s perspective is speculation and assumptions, but so too is your view of things!

 

[maryjk]

So typically immature teenagers walk home in the rain with skittles and iced tea and end up dead for that?

He wasn’t shot for walking home in the rain. He was shot because he was attacking another person.

      : That is my opinion alone.  I don't see that being the case thank goodness or most teens would be in grave danger for their lives.

Well, it isn’t the case. Since Martin wasn’t shot because he was walking home in the rain. If that was the case, Zimmerman would have shot him from a distance, rather than waiting until Martin was on top of him.

 

[MaryT777]

I resemble that remark

I think on hindsight that Martin was wandering around talking to Jeantel. For whatever reason he didn’t want to return home to continue the call. Jeantel said they had been talking off and on for some time. But not knowing the context, Zimmerman saw a stranger in his neighborhood who seemed to be looking around, looking into homes, not on the sidewalk, not seeming to progress toward any destination. From his perspective it looked suspicious.

As to the fight, as we know from science and brain scans, the area of the brain that regulates impulse and behavior matures later than other areas. A teen is really a child in the sense of impulse control even if he is physically an adult as was Martin. It sounds as if he was angry at being followed. He may have thought Zimmerman suspected him because he was black and angry about that… But again even if his impulse were to show the crazy a** crackah the error of his ways, a mature adult would have stood down. Zimmerman may have been annoying but he was no threat.

Again a perfect storm of two paths crossing at a bad time and with disastrous results

Lisa .

It’s speculation that TM was wondering around talking to J not wanting to go home.
The fact is we can’t ask him why he didn’t go home because he is dead now. I speculate while we’re speculating that he was smart enough not to go home and let someone following him know where he lives.

I agree Zimmerman following me around would be annoying (at the least, indeed creepy) I disagree he is not a threat; he killed an innocent teen age boy who was on a cell phone. It’s no crime to walk around with a cell phone.

 

[MaryT777]

He wasn’t shot for walking home in the rain. He was shot because he was attacking another person.
Well, it isn’t the case. Since Martin wasn’t shot because he was walking home in the rain. If that was the case, Zimmerman would have shot him from a distance, rather than waiting until Martin was on top of him.

Zimmerman aced the class where they discussed self defense laws; he knew better than that.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Let’s get back to my main claim that the real crime is in the Florida state for allowing an amateur law enforcement personnel to carry a concealed weapon. With the privilege to carry a concealed weapon, comes added responsibility, such as not profiling and tracking someone. Do we really want a society full of gunslinging vigilantes?

 

[Joe_5859]

I don’t know if everyone knows you can do this, but if you look at who has posted in this thread, this thread would be well past the ordinary 1000 post limit just with the top six posters.

Not to make anyone self-conscious. I just thought it was interesting. Carry on.

 

[Darryl1958]

It would be a crime though to kill a black teenager for eating skittles or talking on a cellphone even if the teenager was making racially derogatory comments against whites.

That scenario was already rejected in a court of law, where actual evidence is what is of most importance.

 

[MaryT777]

I don’t know if everyone knows you can do this, but if you look at who has posted in this thread, this thread would be well past the ordinary 1000 post limit just with the top six posters.

Not to make anyone self-conscious. I just thought it was interesting. Carry on.

LOL… we’ve been granted an “indulgence” for a longer thread

 

[maryjk]

he killed an innocent teen age boy who was on a cell phone. It’s no crime to walk around with a cell phone.

No, he shot someone that was pounding his head on the ground.

 

[LisaA]

Again, your treating GZ’s perspective as fact, while ignoring TM’s perspective. We simply do not know why TM confronted GZ. It could have simply have been to ask him why he was following him. GZ could easily have instigated the fight.

Yes, TM’s perspective is speculation and assumptions, but so too is your view of things!

Again, it is irrelevant why Martin returned and confronted Zimmerman. Maybe he was angry, maybe he thought he could beat up Zimmerman. The only reason I mentioned these possibilities is because, as several posters have said, it seems incredibly foolish for Martin to return to confront Zimmerman. Just trying to make sense of something that sounds like incredibly poor judgment at best.

In the end what matters:

Martin’s acts put Zimmerman in fear for his life or grave bodily injury. Zimmerman used his weapon to defend himself.

That’s all that matters in this case.

 

[lcburgundy]

I agree Zimmerman following me around would be annoying (at the least, indeed creepy) I disagree he is not a threat; he killed an innocent teen age boy who was on a cell phone. It’s no crime to walk around with a cell phone.

The severe temporal confusion in this statement has my head spinning.

So I guess TM knew that he would be justified in thinking GZ a threat because he knew that was going to be shot by GZ before he was shot or even knew GZ had a gun? I can’t follow what is being said here at all.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Again, it is irrelevant why Martin returned and confronted Zimmerman. Maybe he was angry, maybe he thought he could beat up Zimmerman. The only reason I mentioned these possibilities is because, as several posters have said, it seems incredibly foolish for Martin to return to confront Zimmerman. Just trying to make sense of something that sounds like incredibly poor judgment at best.

In the end what matters:

Martin’s acts put Zimmerman in fear for his life or grave bodily injury. Zimmerman used his weapon to defend himself.

That’s all that matters in this case.

Again, you’re totally ignoring TM’s perspective.

 

[LisaA]

Let’s get back to my main claim that the real crime is in the Florida state for allowing an amateur law enforcement personnel to carry a concealed weapon. With the privilege to carry a concealed weapon, comes added responsibility, such as not profiling and tracking someone. Do we really want a society full of gunslinging vigilantes?

The facts sir, just the facts please. Zimmerman passed the rather rigorous background check and application to obtain his concealed carry. If you ever take the time to read the application, it’s quite a rigorous set of requirements.

You have no evidence Martin was “profiled” for anything other than his behavior. There is nothing wrong or illegal about noticing a stranger acting strangely. You have no evidence he was “tracking” Martin. He was apparently initially trying to regain sight contact with him but did not argue with the dispatcher who said he didn’t need to continue to follow Martin.

No need to keep burning the strawman. You have no evidence that Zimmerman or anyone else with a CCW is a “gunslinging vigilante”

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Again, you’re totally ignoring TM’s perspective.

And you are continuing to ignore evidence, testimony, recorded calls, the ME report and all of the other information that would give you your answer.

Further it does not matter. Martin’s "perspective’ is irrelevant in a self defense case where he was beating Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk. Does it make any difference WHY he decided to confront and engage in a physical altercation with Zimmerman?

Lisa