Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[MaryT777]

And you are continuing to ignore evidence, testimony, recorded calls, the ME report and all of the other information that would give you your answer.

Further it does not matter. Martin’s "perspective’ is irrelevant in a self defense case where he was beating Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk. Does it make any difference WHY he decided to confront and engage in a physical altercation with Zimmerman?

Lisa

Yes it does make a big difference. If TM was afraid for his life he had the right to defend himself in all manner necessary.

 

[Robert_Sock]

And you are continuing to ignore evidence, testimony, recorded calls, the ME report and all of the other information that would give you your answer.

Further it does not matter. Martin’s "perspective’ is irrelevant in a self defense case where he was beating Zimmerman’s head on the sidewalk. Does it make any difference WHY he decided to confront and engage in a physical altercation with Zimmerman?

Lisa

All speculative and assumptions.

 

[LisaA]

Yes it does make a big difference. If TM was afraid for his life he had the right to defend himself in all manner necessary.

Yes but you have NO evidence of this. None. Again you and Robert and Broom Wagon keep postulating scenarios that have no basis in the evidence or testimony of multiple witnesses. Did the Prosecuting Attorney claim that Martin was afraid for his life as a result of sitting on Zimmerman and banging his head into the sidewalk after breaking his nose? Where does this delusion arise? It makes no sense at all.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

All speculative and assumptions.

No evidence, testimony and the law. That is how cases are decided.
Lisa

 

[Julian_Bashir]

No evidence, testimony and the law. That is how cases are decided.
Lisa

The posts insist on defending the actions of TM, and even if they were backed by more thahn supposition, do nothing to convict GZ based on his actions, which was the crux of the case. GZs actions were in question, and decuided to be in accordance with the law. Arguing TMs motivations is a waste of time, as they have no bearing frankly. GZ is not expected to be a mind reader and determine that TM had no ill intent when he attacked GZ.

 

[Robert_Sock]

No evidence, testimony and the law. That is how cases are decided.
Lisa

No testimony because GZ shoot and killed TM. My contention is that GZ is guilty of manslaughter because he was negligent in profiling and following TM.

Again, let’s get back to my main claim that the real crime is in the Florida state for allowing an amateur law enforcement personnel to carry a concealed weapon. With the privilege to carry a concealed weapon, comes added responsibility, such as not profiling and tracking someone. Do we really want a society full of gunslinging vigilantes?

 

[St_Francis]

I’ve also thought about this and I can think of many reasons why TM went back.

Many, eh? As in 5 or more? Can you list 5 normal reasons Martin would have gone back? Would you please do so?

That said no need to go back if you’re not followed around like a criminal. Z overstepped his role which in my opinion which is about as close as a police officer as he was ever going to get as NW captain.

Oh, being followed was a reason for going back? How so?

We have no evidence Zimmerman overstepped his bounds.

I can imagine a lot of credible testimony TM could have given. But then, I’ve not only just thought about it but watched the trial, read the testimonies etc.

Let’s hear Martin’s imaginary testimony about his continuing to beat on zimmerman instead of holding down his hands. That would be the only relevant point.

We can’t start a precedent where perceived bad conduct is a reason to kill someone.
We can’t start a precedent where “you have the wrong image” or you fit the “profile” of someone like Z who is by far no profiling expert.

We can’t? What have you been doing to Zimmerman?

That said, Z may have taken a class in it and forgot about it with his bad memory like the class addressing self defense laws. Maybe it wasn’t a lie but his bad memory.
Hopefully most NW persons in a 3 street neighborhood can learn the street names and where they are next round for the next NW captain.

Talk about a bad memory–you seem to have forgotten a few points which have been made several times quite recently.

The Hannity/class thing…

The street name thing…

… for starters.

 

[St_Francis]

I’ve also thought about this and I can think of many reasons why TM went back.

Many, eh? As in 5 or more? Can you list 5 normal reasons Martin would have gone back? Would you please do so?

That said no need to go back if you’re not followed around like a criminal. Z overstepped his role which in my opinion which is about as close as a police officer as he was ever going to get as NW captain.

Oh, being followed was a reason for going back? How so?

We have no evidence Zimmerman overstepped his bounds.

I can imagine a lot of credible testimony TM could have given. But then, I’ve not only just thought about it but watched the trial, read the testimonies etc.

Let’s hear Martin’s imaginary testimony about his continuing to beat on zimmerman instead of holding down his hands. That would be the only relevant point.

We can’t start a precedent where perceived bad conduct is a reason to kill someone.

No, we can’t. But bashing someone’s heAd on a sidewalk is not “perceived bad conduct;” it is actual bad conduct.

We can’t start a precedent where “you have the wrong image” or you fit the “profile” of someone like Z who is by far no profiling expert.

We can’t? What have you been doing to Zimmerman?

That said, Z may have taken a class in it and forgot about it with his bad memory like the class addressing self defense laws. Maybe it wasn’t a lie but his bad memory.
Hopefully most NW persons in a 3 street neighborhood can learn the street names and where they are next round for the next NW captain.

Talk about a bad memory–you seem to have forgotten a few points which have been made several times quite recently.

The Hannity/class thing…

The street name thing…

… for starters.

 

[SamH]

No testimony because GZ shoot and killed TM. My contention is that GZ is guilty of manslaughter because he was negligent in profiling and following TM.

How was he negligent in his profile? George profiled him to a “T”.

 

[adrift]

Let’s get back to my main claim that the real crime is in the Florida state for allowing an amateur law enforcement personnel to carry a concealed weapon. With the privilege to carry a concealed weapon, comes added responsibility, such as not profiling and tracking someone. Do we really want a society full of gunslinging vigilantes?

Lets not!!! and say we did:thumbsup:

 

[lcburgundy]

Again, let’s get back to my main claim that the real crime is in the Florida state for allowing an amateur law enforcement personnel to carry a concealed weapon. With the privilege to carry a concealed weapon, comes added responsibility, such as not profiling and tracking someone. Do we really want a society full of gunslinging vigilantes?

There are over a million active CCW permits in Florida and only one Trayvon Martin case.

CCW holders are among the most law abiding and most peaceful segments of society. If the general population mirrored them, we would live in a far more peaceful society. So I guess the answer is yes.

 

[St_Francis]

No testimony because GZ shoot and killed TM. My contention is that GZ is guilty of manslaughter because he was negligent in profiling and following TM.

Again, let’s get back to my main claim that the real crime is in the Florida state for allowing an amateur law enforcement personnel to carry a concealed weapon. With the privilege to carry a concealed weapon, comes added responsibility, such as not profiling and tracking someone. Do we really want a society full of gunslinging vigilantes?

I certainly do!

I live in a rural area where a police officer on his normal patrol might be over 30 minutes away from where I lve, and that’s if he’s not involved in anything.

There are between 4 and 8 police officers *employed *where I live.

We can’t really rely on the police to protect us here, and yet there is very little crime!

How can this possibly be? How is it that we don’t have blood running in the streets? Why aren’t stores being robbed all the time?

Because most of the people here hunt, and they are have rifles.

Others only have shotguns because there are poisonous snakes here.

Most of the stores have guns under the counters.

And one never knows who is carrying concealed.

The fact that the people around here who might otherwise consider committing robbery or assault realize that they are quite likely to be shot if they do so, and so they don’t. I am actually safer here than I was when I was living in areas with lots of gun control, to tell the truth. Haven’t been in the middle of a shoot-out, haven’t been mugged. It’s very nice!

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t believe anyone is ignoring facts about TM. I don’t believe he was a perfect angel at all; however I’m not sure what the point is about that. That someone was not a little angel does not mean they deserve to end up dead.

GZ was no angel but he’s here to defend himself and TM is not.

no. because trayvon martin was no angel does not mean he deserved to die. I just wish since he was so close to his father’s girlfriend’s house he would have gone home and not confronted George Zimmerman.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Yes but you have NO evidence of this. None. Again you and Robert and Broom Wagon keep postulating scenarios that have no basis in the evidence or testimony of multiple witnesses. Did the Prosecuting Attorney claim that Martin was afraid for his life as a result of sitting on Zimmerman and banging his head into the sidewalk after breaking his nose? Where does this delusion arise? It makes no sense at all.

Lisa

 

[Carlan]

I do not think, with the exception of 3 or 4 posters, this thread has considered both sides of this tragic killing.
I have accepted the jury’s verdict, but I realize jury’s can be wrong and I believe the person who was tried for this killing has gotten away with what he was charged with 2nd degree murder or the lesser charge in this case manslaughter. Peace, Carlan

 

[adrift]

I certainly do!

I live in a rural area where a police officer on his normal patrol might be over 30 minutes away from where I lve, and that’s if he’s not involved in anything.

There are between 4 and 8 police officers *employed *where I live.

We can’t really rely on the police to protect us here, and yet there is very little crime!

How can this possibly be? How is it that we don’t have blood running in the streets? Why aren’t stores being robbed all the time?

Because most of the people here hunt, and they are have rifles.

Others only have shotguns because there are poisonous snakes here.

Most of the stores have guns under the counters.

And one never knows who is carrying concealed.

The fact that the people around here who might otherwise consider committing robbery or assault realize that they are quite likely to be shot if they do so, and so they don’t. I am actually safer here than I was when I was living in areas with lots of gun control, to tell the truth. Haven’t been in the middle of a shoot-out, haven’t been mugged. It’s very nice!

I live in a rural area as well. I would love to have the police ony 30 minutes away. We have two for the area. We aren’t professional fireman either but we are the ones who go and fight the fire as well as man the ambulance. We don’t have much crime either. Most leave their doors unlocked and keys in the vehicles.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I do not think, with the exception of 3 or 4 posters, this thread has considered both sides of this tragic killing.
I have accepted the jury’s verdict, but I realize jury’s can be wrong and I believe the person who was tried for this killing has gotten away with what he was charged with 2nd degree murder or the lesser charge in this case manslaughter. Peace, Carlan

I have not read all of the posts so I don’t know what your reasoning is and if you know what the jury’s instructions were and the rules of the law they had to apply.

 

[St_Francis]

Yes it does make a big difference. If TM was afraid for his life he had the right to defend himself in all manner necessary.

No, he did not have the right–your right to self defense *ends *when the threat ends. Just as someone does not have the right to shoot an attacker in the back as the attacker runs away, so Martin did not have the right to continue bashing Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk once it was clear that Zimmerman was under his control.

 

[Robert_Sock]

There are over a million active CCW permits in Florida and only one Trayvon Martin case.

CCW holders are among the most law abiding and most peaceful segments of society. If the general population mirrored them, we would live in a far more peaceful society. So I guess the answer is yes.

Only one case that made national news.

Please back up your claims with trustworthy statistics. I’ll bet that there is not one bit of data that show that we would live in a more peaceful society if more concealed permits were issued, and I’ll bet there is not a bit of data directly showing that folks with concealed weapons are the most law abiding and peaceful segments of society. Try comparing those stats to those in the clergy.

And please relate the carrying of concealed weapons to Christian morals. For example:
*
Matthew 26:52
Then Jesus saith to him: Put up again thy sword into its place: for all that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Matthew 5:44
Love your enemies:… *

 

[MaryT777]

No, he did not have the right–your right to self defense *ends *when the threat ends. Just as someone does not have the right to shoot an attacker in the back as the attacker runs away, so Martin did not have the right to continue bashing Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk once it was clear that Zimmerman was under his control.

When does the threat end when someone has a gun; when they shoot you? If he needed to kill Zimmerman to save his life he did indeed have that right.