Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[maryjk]

From what I understand, some Neighborhood Watch workers say something like:

“Welcome to the neighborhood, may I help you??” To people they are not sure belong there.

I guess if someone has a question about a person in the neighborhood, making some sort of vocal contact may be proper.

Interestingly, Rachel Jeantel claims she heard on the phone, Zimmerman say “What are you doing here?”, something like this.

Sorry, but is this the same Jeantel that lied about her age. Then later lied about where she was. Then lied about who wrote the letter.

Oh, and then she admitted, on the stand, that she has no idea who threw the first punch.

 

[garn9173]

I’m listening to audio clips of Rachel Jeantel from last night on the Glenn Beck show (you can find links over at Drudge) and seriously, what’s her educational level? She sounds dumber than a box rocks.

 

[garn9173]

Sorry, but is this the same Jeantel that lied about her age. Then later lied about where she was. Then lied about who wrote the letter.

Oh, and then she admitted, on the stand, that she has no idea who threw the first punch.

I’m listening to audio clips of Rachel Jeantel from her appearance on CNN last night on the Glenn Beck show (you can find links over at Drudge) and seriously I have to wonder what her educational level is because she’s coming across as being not very bright.

 

[BroomWagon]

Sorry, but is this the same Jeantel that lied about her age. Then later lied about where she was. Then lied about who wrote the letter.

Oh, and then she admitted, on the stand, that she has no idea who threw the first punch.

Is that a refutation of what she said?

 

[maryjk]

Is that a refutation of what she said?

No, but it might explain why the jury found him not guilty even though at one point she said he threw the first bunch. (She changed her story later.)

I know that if I had been on the jury I wouldn’t have believed anything she said.

 

[mek42]

I find it interesting that there are so many posts in this thread to accept the decision and move on, yet there are many fewer, if any, such posts related to the recent judicial overturning of DOMA. Both issues are the same, where people’s consciences do not agree with a legal decision.

 

[BroomWagon]

No, but it might explain why the jury found him not guilty even though at one point she said he threw the first bunch. (She changed her story later.)

I know that if I had been on the jury I wouldn’t have believed anything she said.

I think any witness’s testimony that is through a phone-call rather than being an eye-witness will be suspect.

Still, I had to respond, I find it pertinent that someone involved in the case would still state such even if it is false. It does make one wonder where that notion would come from:

**“Trayvon said, ‘What are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’ Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn’t answer the phone.” **

abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts/story?id=15959017#.UeVcvawvljN

 

[LisaA]

For me, I did not follow the evidence because I know that both sides are spinning this so much it makes one dizzy. Only the jury has the evidence properly submitted so they can examine it. As to coming “late”, this is still a new thread, less than three days old. Catholic Answers does not require anyone to constantly monitor other posts to add a post. On this thread, that would be impossible.

You apparently didn’t see the post referred to in my response. The poster made a ridiculous statement about GZ gunning down a kid who “wasn’t doing anything.” Completely ridiculous, a complete fabrication and I think irresponsible. I realize when the threads get long it’s hard to go back and read everything. But when people pop up at about post 800 and start making claims that have been dealt with multiple times it’s frustrating.

I posted the map of the paths taken by Martin and Zimmerman that night. Note at one point Martin told Jeantel he had “escaped” Zimmerman and was in his father’s back yard. If this is true, and based on the track Martin took, he clearly had a way to escape if he thought Zimmerman were a threat.

Also listened to an interview with a jury member and although the interviewer kept baiting and baiting her to say she thought Zimmerman was a racist, she said that the jury believed that Martin was “profiled” for his odd and suspicious behavior, not for being black. That certainly comports with the results of the FBI hate crime investigation.

But some will NEVER be satisfied unless the “white” guy pays for historical travesties that he had absolutely nothing to do with.

It’s funny to listen to black “leaders” obfuscate, bluster and pontificate when hit with the fact that something like 11000+ black men have been shot since the Martin death and 93% of them were shot by other black men. But the number and violence and innocents killed in gang banger gunfire are irrelevant…it doesn’t play into the narrative of the race baiters.

The whole response by this crowd is disgusting. They are making race relations worse not better.

Lisa

 

[Dawnia]

I agree she shouldn’t go to jail. However, a fuller analogy would be a frail woman who follows a possible rapist with a gun, rather than just reporting the rapists and sitting in the car until the police arrive.

Or how about just replace Zimmerman with a female counterpart. Would opinions be different if it was a woman who got out of her car to follow Martin and was getting beat on? Would she still be deemed a racist wanna be cop vigilante who decided to take the law into her own hands? Or would she be considered brave for defending herself in a life threatening situation?

 

[maryjk]

I think any witness’s testimony that is through a phone-call rather than being an eye-witness will be suspect.

Still, I had to respond, I find it pertinent that someone involved in the case would still state such even if it is false. It does make one wonder where that notion would come from:

Since Martin’s ear buds were found IN his pocket, and since she has lied so many times, it stands to reason that she was also not being truthful here.

Well, unless when the "headset just fell,’ it just fell into his pocket.

 

[fix]

We have the witness saying he saw MMA “ground and pound”, again, it seems George Zimmerman’s word is that his head is being beaten into the sidewalk. That is not absolutely proven.

One should not be able to pick a fight and if losing, then use a gun and claim self-defense. We don’t know if that happened but we don’t know if Zimmerman’s version is true either.

He did not pick a fight though.

 

[fix]

Right, it’s more fair if the one who is in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death just end up brain damaged or dead. That’s basically what you are endorsing. How dare the person pummeling someone not win.

That does pretty much sum up many peoples arguments. They Zimmerman had it coming and he should just taken it like a man. How dare he end up saving himself.

That does seem to be the logic.

 

[fix]

I think I have a harder time understanding why anyone would ignore Trayvon Martin’s responsibility in his own death.

That is an excellent point and one that I have considered and never seen addressed.

 

[livingwordunity]

What if she thought he was a rapist, shot him, and he never was a rapist or suspect of a rape at all; he had the same color of skin as the man who did rape others in the neighborhood but it wasn’t the man she shot.

An analogy that would fit the GZ/TM case is the woman shoots the rapist while she is being raped. TM was the one to initiate a crime by assaulting GZ, and TM didn’t figure that it would cost him his life.

 

[adrift]

I find it interesting that there are so many posts in this thread to accept the decision and move on, yet there are many fewer, if any, such posts related to the recent judicial overturning of DOMA. Both issues are the same, where people’s consciences do not agree with a legal decision.

Since this thread is about the Zeimmerman Verdict and not DOMA, it would be strange to make comment about DOMA.

Both issues are not the same as one is a criminal case and the other is legislation. A criminal case once decided is over. Other charges may be brought against the defendant but this case has been permanently decided. Where as legislation may be changed, discussed and debated, because legislation is on going. You are comparing apples and oranges.

 

[didymus]

Another interesting article from Slate:
What If George Zimmerman Had A Public Defender?

What if George Zimmerman had been poor? What if his legal case hadn’t attracted national attention and raised over $300,000?

                                                                                                                                 In the wake of Trayvon Martin's death and Zimmerman's non-arrest and  then arrest and then trial and aquittal most of the counterfactual  scenarios I've seen have dealt with race. Zimmerman's attorney Mark  O'Mara says Zimmerman would never have been arrested had he been black,  in which case the race angle never would have led to national pressure  on the local police to second-guess their initial decision to believe  his story. Others have raised the question of whether a young black man  who shot and killed the only eyewitness to a fistfight he provoked would  ever have gotten the benefit of the doubt from a white jury and I think  the answer is no.

                                                                 But looking back at it I do think the best question to ask is what if  Zimmerman hadn't had the resources to hire O'Mara in the first place?  What if Zimmerman, like most criminal defendants in the United States,  was relying on a public defender with little emotional or financial  investment in winning the case and no resources with which to pursue a  robust defense even if he'd been inclined to do so. Wouldn't that  defender have told Zimmerman that the smart way to avoid a second-degree  murder sentence was to plead guilty to manslaughter and work out terms  of incarceration that would be less onerous than what he'd end up with  if he fought and lost. And of course the last thing any sensible person  wants to do is go to trial with his entire life on the line in a  situation where his own attorney has just plainly said he's not  enthusiastic about running the case.

In lots of well-publicised cases defendants have been acquitted largely because DAs have been outclassed by top-notch defense lawyers. E.g., Casey Anthony would be in prison right now if the case hadn’t gone national. She’d have been represented by a PD who would have tried to negotiate the best plea deal possible.

I’m not knocking public defenders, most are very dedicated but they are hamstrung by a lack of resources. Even innocent defendants are have no choice but to accept plea deals because PDs have no access to investigators or experts.

Maybe a lottery system so 1 out of every 100 defendants gets an independent defense attorney like O’Mara. It would certainly keep DAs on their toes.

PS – I think the article is wrong stating PDs have “little emotional investment” in their cases. My brother is a defense attorney and he takes all his cases seriously whether they are private, referrals from defenders or pro bono.

 

[BroomWagon]

Since Martin’s ear buds were found IN his pocket, and since she has lied so many times, it stands to reason that she was also not being truthful here.

Well, unless when the "headset just fell,’ it just fell into his pocket.

We can surmise she has been untruthful, it does not mean everyone interested in this case believes her contributions are meaningless or that her statements do not reflect anything helpful in understanding this case.

She’s hard. She’s black. And your assumptions about her background and lack of education make you feel like you are better, somehow. That her testimony, no matter how powerful and impactful it may be to this trial, is implausible. Weak, maybe? Let’s impeach her.

Read more: globalgrind.com/news/what-black-people-understand-about-rachel-jeantel-christina-coleman-blog#ixzz2ZDmKuvsP

I disagree with the sentence above saying “make you feel like you are better, somehow” but other than that, I think this article has merit.

Though I don’t agree with leftist articles in general, I think there is some merit that she, Jeantel has her own worldview too.

It’s sort of like when IQ tests are given and some people claim they are geared more towards the way White Americans think.

In the end, I think being an “Ear-Witness” by law is not nearly as valuable as being an “Eye-Witness”.

I just don’t look at Rachel Jeantel’s statements and say, I wouldn’t testify in that way. It’s not straight out reasonable to how I would testify, it’s not straight out rational, so I dismiss everything she says.

 

[maryjk]

An analogy that would fit the GZ/TM case is the woman shoots the rapist while she is being raped.

While he is actually on top of her. His shirt 3 - 4 inches away from his body.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

there is a good article written by alan dershowitz on newsmax.com.

he said they should investigate prosecutorial misconduct and the fact that zimmermans’ civil rights were violated.

Dershowitz also says Zimmerman has a defamation case against prosecutor Angela Corey who, in a interview on last night’s HLN Afterdark, called him a “murderer” even though he was duly acquitted.

It’s also worth mentioning that despite all the hot air by pundits and armchair lawyers, the Justice Department cannot bring civil rights charges against Zimmerman. Civil rights violations are something that the government does; not private individuals.

If Zimmerman had been a real cop employed by the state or the local government and paid out of taxpayers’ money then that would be different. But since Zimmerman was an unpaid volunteer taking his turn as a neighborhood watchman they can’t touch him.

Hopefully, Eric Holder is smart enough to know that.

 

[BroomWagon]

He did not pick a fight though.

I said we don’t know if that happened but on the other hand, we are just going with Zimmerman’s version in general, only his side has a real narrative.