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Pup7
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Pup7
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I haven’t even done that level of research and that is pretty much the same thing I found in a dirty Google search and scan.LilyM:
In terms of articles, I found overlapping quotes; for example quotes from Tarana Burke who supported the SW (she’s the founder of the MeToo movement). Also quotes from Amber Rose who established the LA SW as being an extension of MeToo. Nothing where it says “It started because of this” or vice versa. I don’t know if you’re looking for that specifically.
It’s more of what has been co-opted, which is more so my point.
I’ll send those quotes if you’d accept those.
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Lea101
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That’s what I thought. It’s not a celebration of promiscuity but rather, a woman’s promiscuity shouldn’t be brought up when she’s raped…
Obviously it’s not the most moral movement though.
Obviously it’s not the most moral movement though.
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Pup7
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Well, it did that as well. 100%.
Reclaiming the word “slut” (I have no idea why anyone would want to) is assuredly promoting promiscuity in my book. “I’m a slut and I’m proud.” What is the connotation with the word “slut” in the American lexicon?
Seems promotional to me.
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Lea101
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My point was that it was not the goal of the movement
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DarkLight
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I don’t think it’s 100% divorced from the idea that female promiscuity should be acceptable. It definitely has that overtone as well.
At the same time, the point that immodesty or promiscuity shouldn’t be taken as support for mistreating women is well taken.
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gcshapero
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I don’t think it was the initial goal. I think it’s a worthwhile movement, but like any movement, responsibility needs to be taken on behalf of those who want to see the change.
You can’t demand respect and then expect it without acting respectfully.
When it comes to those who couldn’t have done anything beyond their means like children or actual rape victims who – those who conflate the word “rape” or say MeToo is about being able to be promiscuous free of shame or responsibility have betrayed those actual victims.
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Pup7
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That is very true.
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Lea101
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I know. Their response is essentially ‘so what?’
I.e. Being promiscuous (basically being called a slut) shouldn’t be shamed and I shouldn’t be shamed for it. And it doesn’t matter because rape is rape.
They’re not promoting it over, say chastity. But rather they’re saying that it shouldn’t be shamed. I guess that’s where the misunderstanding lies. I assumed they were saying that these women are acting like promiscuity is good rather than acceptable.
I.e. Being promiscuous (basically being called a slut) shouldn’t be shamed and I shouldn’t be shamed for it. And it doesn’t matter because rape is rape.
They’re not promoting it over, say chastity. But rather they’re saying that it shouldn’t be shamed. I guess that’s where the misunderstanding lies. I assumed they were saying that these women are acting like promiscuity is good rather than acceptable.
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LilyM
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Actually - I work in a high-stress job and there is plenty of juvenile if not infantile stuff that goes on by way of jokes and pranks. Much healthier than most other coping mechanisms.
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DarkLight
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I think what’s at issue is often the definition of “acting respectfully.”
I’d say those who are promoting promiscuity often believe that treating modesty and chastity as part of respect is not good. Obviously I don’t agree with them.
At the same time, it is a definite issue I’ve found, even in Catholic circles, that there’s a point where men defining what counts as respectable behavior for women can itself be a problem. People can and have used changing their definition of respectable in order to degrade people.
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Lea101
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This is where I don’t get you honestly.
The most sexually active woman should be supported if she was raped. In fact, it wouldn’t be a factor because her previous sexual activity was consensual while the rape isn’t. Her history has no relevance here. She’s not less valid compared to an innocent Catholic woman who was raped too. I think we agree on this?
I don’t think anyone relevant enough is saying that MeToo is about being promiscuous though without shame. Literally everyone agrees is about sexual assault. What you’re referring to is its implications rather than the goal of the movement. Which means that when they argue against victim shaming, they happen to imply that there isn’t anything wrong with wearing skimpy clothing in general (for example)
The whole being promiscuous without shame would fall under sexual liberation/empowerment, which would be a different topic?
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gcshapero
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That’s a great point – sometimes this is very subjective or at least gets translated that way.
I’m not suggesting people don’t get treated with respect, but even WHAT respect is needs to be define a bit clearer. I don’t think it’s disrespectful to tell someone when they’re in error (though it needs to be done with actual charity). Though some may call that disrespectful in itself.
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Pup7
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It does where I work as well. But you deliberately took what I said completely out of context.
There’s a reason you don’t go out in public behaving like a child, skipping through Target, pulling everything off of shelves, throwing temper tantrums when you don’t get your way, yelling “NO!” at your shopping companion, taking your shirt off in the middle of the aisle, throwing your shoes on the floor…(yeah, extreme and out of context, also to make a point) - you don’t behave like a child in public because you’re not. You don’t relate to the general public as if you’re a six year old because you’re not.
There’s a reason for that. That was my point.
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Jump4Joy
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Why is female promiscuity always the problem?
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gcshapero
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That’s fair to bring up.
First off, I would never say anyone deserves to be raped. However, some do leave themselves more vulnerable to it, which isn’t good.
If someone enjoys getting wrecked at the club and meeting strangers there, even if she didn’t intend to go home with any of them, but then gets raped or assaulted, that guy is the monster…but she did also neglect her own well-being when she chose to get drunk while entangling herself with people she doesn’t know.
When someone is in a really bad neighborhood, he could be a victim of violence. He needs to be mindful and aware. If he begins to do something to bring attention to himself as a target, the aggressor is the monster, but the victim may have behaved foolishly.
They called this “victim shaming” if someone points out that there is an element of responsibility that we all must take with us.
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gcshapero
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It’s not. Promiscuity from everyone is the problem. Big time.
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Elizabeth3
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I understand what the points are of each movement. I agree that a man is not entitled to sexual favors or to harass a woman because of the way she is dressed or because she has a different lover each night of the week.
I guess it all boils down to a secular culture trying to define morality in one area but clearly promoting immorality or at least allowing people the right to choose immoral behavior without shame in another area.
As Catholics we don’t (or at least we shouldn’t) draw these lines in such a hypocritical way. Each person should dress and act modestly (within cultural norms) according to their recognition of their dignity given to them by God. To a Catholic sense of morality, a woman marching down the street in her bra and underwear holding a sign that says “I’m not your toy.” seems a ludicrous way of trying to insist on personal dignity while at the same time she consents to act in a way that is not dignified. The unwritten, or implied part of the sign would say…“unless I consent to be and you can be mine. Then it’s all good.”
I get the message they are trying to send but IMO it’s highly ineffective and causes the real message of #metoo to appear as somewhat of a joke.
I would actually argue that you are acting according to your fullest and utmost dignity and worth as an adult when you decide to meet the child where they are in order to interact on a level they can understand and appeals to them. There’s nothing undignified about that.
Me too. I just wonder if she knows that and how she squares that with her choices.
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DarkLight
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If you’ve seen any CAF modesty discussion at all, that kind of makes the point.
There are things that are definitely over the line, but there are also things that some people will think are over the line and some think are perfectly ok.
It’s the same with safety too. There are things that are obviously unsafe, but there are also things that are going to be debatable. Everything in life carries some risk.
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Jump4Joy
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Male promiscuity is still the accepted norm. It is never questioned, deciphered and scrutinized as female promiscuity is. Is it unnatural for women to be sexual beings? I think women see dressing sexually as a way to reclaim their sexuality. IDK if I agree or not.
I understand the whole idea if you want respect you should respect yourself but that can turn into slutshaming though and can be used to justify abuse
I understand the whole idea if you want respect you should respect yourself but that can turn into slutshaming though and can be used to justify abuse
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