Opinions on Charismatic Renewal

[Lazerlike42]

TobyLue:

We had our own Charismatic Mass once a month but then as I read more into the teachings of the CC I found that we weren’t doing some things right. Like “dancing in the spirit” during mass, self communicating, giving communion to infants, making up our own liturgical songs, having non-catholics preach during our masses, that only we had the Holy Spirit, etc., etc.

This is what I am hostile to.

 

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Lazerlike42:

This is what I am hostile to.

AMEN! I’m with you Lazerlike!!!

 

[Matt16_18]

rwoehmke:

Like the old lady who said, “Everyone to their own taste as she kissed the cow,” it is not for every one, but it is a legitimate form of living out the Catholic Faith

Charismatic spirituality cannot be reduced to a mere matter of taste! "For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability.”
Matt. 25:15The master (God) gives talents (charismatic gifts) to his servants to build up his kingdom. The Catholic that refuses to accept or seek the charismatic gifts is like the servant that buries his talent in the field. We are ALL called to work of evangelization and we cannot effectively do that work without the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit.

For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
Matt. 25: 29-30

 

[scriabin]

Go, Lazer!! :clapping:

 

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Matt16_18:

A truly traditional Catholic would be exercising the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit. Just read Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles of the New Testament and you will see that the first Catholics were all "charismatic” Catholics.

Yes! But I don’t believe the “Chrismatic” of today to be the same as early day Christians! Also, if I had been born in those days, I’m very, very sure I would be that type of “Chrismatic”!

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Being “baptized in the Holy Spirit” is actually a “release” or a “coming to consciousness” of the power of the Holy Spirit who already has been given to the believer through the sacraments of the Church.

This is another point which I take with some Catholic Charismatics-I’ve been Baptised and Confirmed-I have received the gifts of the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments of God’s Holy Church-I’ve got them just as much as anyone else does Sacramentally.

However, in the above definition (which I have no proble with), I think I’ve been “baptized in the Holy Spirit” in that I felt a “coming to consciousness” once I decided that I’m actually going to live out my Catholic Faith. I’m doing this through the Traditional means, I really don’t see how us “Traditionalists” are lacking in any degree if we are sincere. I don’t see how any Catholic who professes the orthodox Catholic Faith sincerely would be going wrong.

 

[Church_Militant]

I thought of this whole kind of discussion yesterday at Mass.

My opinion on all this has been stated before HERE.

From the Mass reading: Deuteronomy 18:15-22

15: "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren – him you shall heed –
16: just as you desired of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, or see this great fire any more, lest I die.' 17: And the LORD said to me, They have rightly said all that they have spoken.
18: I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
19: And whoever will not give heed to my words which he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.
20: But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’
21: And if you say in your heart, `How may we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ –
22: when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.

Some of you seem all up on this supposed prophecy, but according to this passage the consequences for it being false is pretty serious to say the least.

Moreover, I noticed this list in 1st Corinthians 12
7: To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8: To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
9: to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10: to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11: All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
One thing that is fairly common knowledge is that lists in the New Testament go from most important to least important, which tells us something more. Then also there is 1st Cor. 13…

As I’ve pointed out in other discussions, there is a definite scriptural discipline to the use of these gifts within the church, and any practices that don’t conform to that discipline are of questionable origin.

Anyone who implies that a person who doesn’t speak in tongues is not filled with the Holy Spirit is as unscriptural as any non-Catholic.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Matt16_18]

Lazerlike42:

I

I am hostile to the notion that members of the Charismatic Renewal are neccessarily more able to instruct than those who are not …

From whom have you ever sought instruction about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

What charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit did you receive after receiving instruction from these men or women who are outside the Charismatic Renewal?

 

[Church_Militant]

Matt16_18:

From whom have you ever sought instruction about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

What charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit did you receive after receiving instruction from these men or women who are outside the Charismatic Renewal?

That is not a valid test…

 

[Kendy]

Matt16_18:

Charismatic spirituality cannot be reduced to a mere matter of taste! "For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability.”
Matt. 25:15The master (God) gives talents (charismatic gifts) to his servants to build up his kingdom. The Catholic that refuses to accept or seek the charismatic gifts is like the servant that buries his talent in the field. We are ALL called to work of evangelization and we cannot effectively do that work without the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit.

For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
Matt. 25: 29-30

I agree. I don’t speak in tongues, I don’t have a gift of prophecy, or of healing. In fact, I am not sure what gift I have . But I do think we can ascertain from scriptures that these gifts are to be present in the church and that we are all called to be open to these gifts so that the Holy Spirit can empower us to work for the kingdom. But when my parish priest said this is not for everyone during his homily, he is telling the parish to be closed to these gifts.

Kendy

 

[ComradeAndrei]

We are ALL called to work of evangelization and we cannot effectively do that work without the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There have been countless people converted to Catholicism because of the beauty and solemnity of Mass, the sublimity of Chant, or various other reasons.

 

[TobyLue]

Anyone who implies that a person who doesn’t speak in tongues is not filled with the Holy Spirit is as unscriptural as any non-Catholic.
Pax vobiscum,

CM - Exactly.
That was another problem I had with the CM. I knew of these two ladies. This sweet old black lady who converted from the Baptist Church didnt speak in tongues but, man, this lady was full of wisdom. Likewise another lady who had been with the prayer group for many years could council others so beautiful. Both were full of love and when they spoke to others, they had such a gentle way about them that you could tell they really were full of the Holy Spirit. However, since neither of them spoke in tongues, people would talk because they insisted that everybody MUST have the gift of tongues and didnt look to kindly towards them. I was leader of the music group and we had a young man who was constantly critizing the CC (he started attending some non-dem prayer group who apparently was anti-catholic) so much that I had to remove him from the group. However, I asked one of these ladies to speak with the young man to calm him down because he took it pretty hard when I had to dismiss him. She did such a wonderful job in settling him down. BUT, she didnt pray in tongues. This black lady whenever we would ask her to lead us in prayer, to me it sounded like an angel praying as the words were so beautiful and full of love for God. BUT she didnt pray in tongues.
On the positive side, this other lady who was very involved with the CM was suffering from cancer and on her deathbed motioned to others to sing songs of praise and she praised God to her last breath.

 

[Lazerlike42]

1 Corinthians 12:

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.** 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. **

As St. Paul writes, there are many different gifts of the Spirit, but each comes from the same Spirit. Note how gifts such as knowledge and wisdom are listed right alongside gifts such as prophesy, tongues, and healing. To some are given the gift of tongues, no doubt, but to some are given the gift of knowledge. I don’t intend to boast, but I consider myself very knowledgeable in terms of my faith. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit. If somebody else has miraculous powers (like St. Padre Pio, for instance), that is his gift no more than is my gift of knowledge mine.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

It seems as though those whom are pushing the Charismatic Renewal in this thread wish the entire body to be an eye, so to speak. The charismatic gifts of the Spirit are truly glorious, and truly important parts of the body. However, the foot, as St. Paul puts it, is just as important as the eye! My knowledge is just as important as another’s tongues. One’s wisdom is no less fruitful than another’s healings. All those whom are baptized (and more accurately, confirmed) posses the gifts of the Spirit. The lack of prophesy, tongues, healing, and so forth do not indicate that a person is closed to the Holy Spirit. The Spirit will give to each what He will. He does not give all to all.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable… But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

We ought to be supporting one another, and building one another up! To demean one for the lack of Charismatic gifts is against God’s will and against the exhortations of St. Paul. Those to whom God has given amazing gifts, such as prophesy, have glory just as do those to whom God has given more subtle gifts such as knowledge. We need have equal concern for one another, not criticism and judgement.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire[e] the greater gifts.

God has given the Church many parts. He has appointed persons to various roles in the Church. Those with Charismatic gifts are only one part of it. Some are not given the gift of tongues. Some simply cannot prophesy. Others are unable to heal, and some are incapable of learning much! To claim that one has not accepted the Holy Spirit because one has not experienced these gifts is to speak blasphemy. We must always desire the greater gifts of course! Why not seek the highest we might? Yet not all will receive these. To each will be given what is allotted each.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Kendy:

I agree. I don’t speak in tongues, I don’t have a gift of prophecy, or of healing. In fact, I am not sure what gift I have . But I do think we can ascertain from scriptures that these gifts are to be present in the church and that we are all called to be open to these gifts so that the Holy Spirit can empower us to work for the kingdom. But when my parish priest said this is not for everyone during his homily, he is telling the parish to be closed to these gifts.

Kendy

No, he is only presenting the Scriptural teaching that not all gifts will be given to all persons.

 

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Church Militant:

Anyone who implies that a person who doesn’t speak in tongues is not filled with the Holy Spirit is as unscriptural as any non-Catholic.
Pax vobiscum,

This is my belief also. Right on target Micheal!

 

[Kendy]

Lazerlike42:

No, he is only presenting the Scriptural teaching that not all gifts will be given to all persons.

I felt like he was doing more than that. He was subtly discouraging others from participating. I don’t think we all have the same gifts but I do think we are all called to exercise gifts of the spirits.

Kendy

 

[Matt16_18]

ComradeAndrei:

There have been countless people converted to Catholicism because of the beauty and solemnity of Mass, the sublimity of Chant …

No doubt this is true. But what does any of that have to do with the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Both/And not Either/Or!

 

[Matt16_18]

Lazerlike42:

It seems as though those whom are pushing the Charismatic Renewal in this thread wish the entire body to be an eye, so to speak.

I don’t see anyone doing this.

The charismatic gifts of the Spirit are truly glorious, and truly important parts of the body.

The charismatic gifts are not “parts of the body”. The people are the parts of the Body, and the charismatic gifts are what build up the Body of Christ. If all the charismatic gifts are not being exercised within your local community, your local community is suffering because of it.

My knowledge is just as important as another’s tongues. One’s wisdom is no less fruitful than another’s healings.

Who would say otherwise? Wisdom and knowledge are both listed by Paul as being charismatic gifts. Paul writes that not everyone is given the same charismatic gifts, but this does not mean that within the community it would be normal if some (or many) of the gifts are missing.Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1Cor 12:4-5

… my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
1Cor. 14:39

We ought to be supporting one another, and building one another up!

This is what the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are for – building up the Body of Christ! What we don’t need is a bunch of so-called “traditionalist” Catholics that denigrate the Charismatic Renewal and the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit - which is exactly what happens so often in this forum.

God has given the Church many parts. He has appointed persons to various roles in the Church. Those with Charismatic gifts are only one part of it.

It is a mistake to think that it is normal or desirable to have the Body of Christ divided into two distinct parts, those with charismatic gifts and those without charismatic gifts. This is not at all what Paul is preaching – Paul is saying that different charismatic gifts are distributed among the members of the Body of Christ, not that it is normal for adult Catholics to possess no charismatic gifts. Less yet is Paul saying that it is a good thing that vast numbers of Catholics have never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Kendy:

But when my parish priest said this is not for everyone during his homily, he is telling the parish to be closed to these gifts. … He was subtly discouraging others from participating. I don’t think we all have the same gifts but I do think we are all called to exercise gifts of the spirits.

No Catholic priest should do this.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Matt16_18:

No doubt this is true. But what does any of that have to do with the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Both/And not Either/Or!

Scripture and the Magesterium of the Church teach that all persons receive gifts of the Holy Spirit, but they say nothing to indicate that all persons will receive charismatic gifts. As I showed through Sacred Scripture, knowledge and wisdom are no less gifts of the same Spirit as are prophesy and tongues.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Matt16_18:

This is what the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are for – building up the Body of Christ! What we don’t need is a bunch of so-called “traditionalist” Catholics that denigrate the Charismatic Renewal and the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit - which is exactly what happens so often in this forum.

…

It is a mistake to think that it is normal or desirable to have the Body of Christ divided into two distinct parts, those with charismatic gifts and those without charismatic gifts. This is not at all what Paul is preaching – Paul is saying that different charismatic gifts are distributed among the members of the Body of Christ, not that it is normal for adult Catholics to possess no charismatic gifts. Less yet is Paul saying that it is a good thing that vast numbers of Catholics have never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Nobody here is denegrating the Charismatic Renewal. The posts responding to the OP clearly state that the Charismatic Renewal can be a very good thing, and a thing which helps to draw people into the Church, and to bring the Church of God to greater glory.

What is happening here is that participants of the Charismatic renewal are denegrating non-participants. What the posts also said is that the Charismatic Renewal can (note that I said can and not always does)produce negative things. It can give rise to abuse, such as is the case with people claiming that anyone who is not a part of the Charismatic Renewal, or anyone who has never spoken in tongues prophesied or healed, has not received baptism of the Holy Spirit. Everyone whom has been baptized and confirmed has received baptism of the Holy Spirit. To say otherwise is what is denegrating and incredibly offensive and frankly un-Christian.