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CuriousInIL
Guest
I have never quite heard it stated in that fashion and was wondering if you have support for this idea. It would help if you did so that I could use this in a debate I am having.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
I totally respect this rationale. As witnesses, we should take care to make sure that we don’t create the appearance of scandal. I get that “lecture” all the time as I’m a hugger and spontaneously hug probably too much while my wife is more reserved. I even give a half hug to some of my male buddies who I seldom see mostly becuase of distance or just lives that don’t intersect much anymore.
However, this “concern” is indicative of too much judging being done. My cousin bought a house right out of college. He is single so he brought in buddies to help him pay for it. As two got married (not to each other of course
), he was left with one roommate and they lived together by themselves for probably two years. When mortgage rates fell, he refinanced and lowered his payments such that he no longer needed “boarders.” When I asked him why his buddy moved out to an apartment, he told me that they were both tired of people thinkign they were gay.
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rayne89
Guest
Even the most holiest of men have been tripped up. Go back to the OT and read about all the prophets that Satan was able to draw into sin. So having strong faith is not a reason to justify an action. If that was the case, people of strong faith could watch all the filth on TV and in the movies because they know it’s wrong but their faith would not allow it to affect them. In reality those that do justify in that way have all ready been affected. They have become accepting of evil.
Friendship is not evil, it is not filthy, it is not dirty, it is not immoral. I do not have justify my friendships because there is nothing wrong with them. There are some people that have weakness when it comes to sexual sin but that doesn’t mean all do. Maybe you or those you have encountered have displayed such a weakness and you now believe everyone is succeptable to such temptation.
Some people have had bad experiences with people who drink alcohol so now they are against drinking all together. Do some people fall into sin due to alcohol -yes so because of that no one should drink alcohol? Look in the Bible, is condems drunkeness many times but it doesn’t say people can not drink.
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Mt19_26
Guest
I don’t think WindyFire was talking about love but the closeness one gets to an opposite-sex friend? We can love, and if fact we are commanded to love, everyone. I don’t believe that requires getting close to them.
Exactly, not everyone will succumb to sexual sin. But, the temptation exists nevertheless.
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WindyFire12
Guest
Sure, if you’d like to that could add to the discussion. Personally, I do not see CLOSE opposite-sex friendships as beneficial to a marriage.
Love for a friend does not take away from a wife or husband. The love one has for a friend is not the same type of love one has for their spouse. The love one has for a friend does not mean that that friend must be a CLOSE friend. I love all my friends. I love my enemies. But I am not CLOSE to my opposite-sex friends or enemies.
No, it’s obvious that not all will succumb to the same sins. Some will subcumb more easily. To place yourself in a situation where it’s possibly however is a near occasion of sin regardless of your ability to subcumb to it. People naturally attracted to the opposite-sex and if one gets close to a member of the opposite-sex outside their marriage they could be tempted to sin. Having a close opposite-sex friend is a bad idea.
I am not projecting it upon others. I am simply pointing out that we as humans are attracted to the opposite-sex and because of that having close opposite-sex friends outside marriage is wrong. Not only does it place one into a tempting situtation but it takes away from the closeness and exclusivity that is reserved for one’s spouse.
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LSK
Guest
You have a good point. If a person does not respect the relationship of their friend, as I stated in my post, then they are putting themselves and causing their friend to be in a near occasion of sin. This would go against Catholic teaching. I think we are on the same track here. The problem, as I see it, is that many people do not respect the couple, the institution and Sacrament of Marriage. I have close, married male friends but I do not insinuate myself into their marriage and their spouses know me, know my belief system, know that I respect their position as the wife and their position as partner and co-head of the household. I would never go anywhere with their husband, attend a function or otherwise socialize without their knowledge or permission…as an example, the DRE of our parish accompanied me and appeared on a local cable access show as a Catholic Apologist but his Dear Wife not only knew but helped us prepare for the appearance.
Perhaps what we are talking about is more the outside onslaught of lack of respect for the family and Sacrament of Marriage and how opposite-sex friends can sometimes lend themselves to further errosion of marriage.
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LynnieLew
Guest
I too had a female roommate during college and we had a couple of apartments together and some thought the same thing about us. I guess I would be more comfortable with that than me be out with a man while I was married. It would look odd if I was out to lunch with a close male friend and someone from church or my pastor saw me. No matter how innocent, I think it would have hints of something weird going on.I totally respect this rationale. As witnesses, we should take care to make sure that we don’t create the appearance of scandal. I get that “lecture” all the time as I’m a hugger and spontaneously hug probably too much while my wife is more reserved. I even give a half hug to some of my male buddies who I seldom see mostly becuase of distance or just lives that don’t intersect much anymore.
However, this “concern” is indicative of too much judging being done. My cousin bought a house right out of college. He is single so he brought in buddies to help him pay for it. As two got married (not to each other of course
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Mt19_26
Guest
Scott Hahn has talked about this. I attended the National Catholic Family Conference in Anahiem earlier this year and he gave three talks about family and marriage which discussed what it means to be sacramentally married. You might be able to get a copy of the talks from St. Joesph’s Communications.
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dsmommy
Guest
Windyfire, I absolutely agree with your post as well. I don’t think people should all be so presumptious as to think that they would never stray. It’s not ALL about sex. So, to say that sexual sin is not a cross for you and that people who agree with Windyfire are the ones with the problems, is wrong. It’s ALL of humanity’s problem, not just a few. We all have a fallen nature, not just some of us. Once again, it’s not just about sex. There are a lot of other reasons people stray.
Peter didn’t think he would ever betray Jesus either, yet he did. If we can betray Jesus, which we do everytime we sin, then we can betray our spouse. So don’t be too sure of yourself ever, cause Satan counts on it, and don’t get too close to your opposite sex friends, because you never know when the day might come that you would be tempted to be more than that. With opposite sex friends, the potential to be more than that is always there, that’s the difference. Having mutual friends with your spouse is one thing, but sharing a special close relationship, or spending any special alone time, whether it be on the phone, or in person is just wrong, and should be time spent either with your spouse, other family, same sex friends, or Jesus.
Peter didn’t think he would ever betray Jesus either, yet he did. If we can betray Jesus, which we do everytime we sin, then we can betray our spouse. So don’t be too sure of yourself ever, cause Satan counts on it, and don’t get too close to your opposite sex friends, because you never know when the day might come that you would be tempted to be more than that. With opposite sex friends, the potential to be more than that is always there, that’s the difference. Having mutual friends with your spouse is one thing, but sharing a special close relationship, or spending any special alone time, whether it be on the phone, or in person is just wrong, and should be time spent either with your spouse, other family, same sex friends, or Jesus.
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Mt19_26
Guest
I don’t think anyone here said friendship in general was evil or filthy. The whole discussion is revolving around close opposite-sex friendship outside a marriage. Half the people here seem to think it’s okay and the other half don’t. I am one of those that don’t think it’s a good idea for all the reasons already posted.
It’s not just sexual. Emotional attraction or attachment to another person not your spouse is infidelity. It’s called emotional infidelity and in many times is much more serious and damaging to a marriage.
But it does condemn unfaithfulness and says unfaithfulness is never alright. I think Windy was was leaning or imply sexual temptations but emotional temptations exist also. Being close to an opposite-sex friend can tempt someone emotionally. They may find themselves wishing to be in the company of friend rather than their spouse. They may find themselves comparing their opposite-friend’s qualities with that of their spouses. That can be detrimental to a marriage.
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Mt19_26
Guest
d(name removed by moderator)my:
Wish I could have worded it that well.
Excellent!!!
Wish I could have worded it that well.
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rayne89
Guest
Mt19:26:
All those things you mentioned about emotional attaction can happen but it doesn’t mean that it will. I have a hard with the idea of going through life avoiding all things because it may cause a problem for some people. I know myself - and I know I have very clear lines that I will never cross. I know what is a temptation to me and what is not. If it is a tempation for someone than yes absolutely they should avoid it. There are certain people in my life that I know should not keep opposite sex friends. (And I don’t agree that married people should keep in contact with old boyfriends/girlfriends)
Also if my husband was uncomfortable with it or my friend’s spouse was uncomfortable with it that would be the end of it. I have no intention of hurting my husband or causing trouble in someone else’s marriage.
We are obviously not going to agree on this. I think you have a “puritanical” view of the relationship between men and women. It reminds me of when I went to a summer camp as a teenager and we were instructed that we had to stay at least 12 inches away from the boys at all times.
All those things you mentioned about emotional attaction can happen but it doesn’t mean that it will. I have a hard with the idea of going through life avoiding all things because it may cause a problem for some people. I know myself - and I know I have very clear lines that I will never cross. I know what is a temptation to me and what is not. If it is a tempation for someone than yes absolutely they should avoid it. There are certain people in my life that I know should not keep opposite sex friends. (And I don’t agree that married people should keep in contact with old boyfriends/girlfriends)
Also if my husband was uncomfortable with it or my friend’s spouse was uncomfortable with it that would be the end of it. I have no intention of hurting my husband or causing trouble in someone else’s marriage.
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WindyFire12
Guest
But do you know your close friend that well? What you might not consider a near occasion of sin for yourself may be a near occasion of sin for your friend.
Also, simply saying you “know yourself” doesn’t guarantee that you will not fall into sin when you place yourself in the near occasion of sin. With that reasoning we could put ourselves into almost any potentially sinful situation but because we know we won’t cross the lines it’s not sinful.
In regards to close opposite-sex friendships the potential is always there that lines may be crossed. It’s in our very nature.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
I agree wholly with Rayne here and all points. I think that distinction here is taht Rayne and I have opposite sex relationships that are based on philia love and thus the temptations other mention are more remote than other near occassions of sin. I understand that we need to be diligent against the work fo the devil but that extends to other aspects to our lives and situations as well.
We have to keep in mind that the Devil will work through everyone with whom we are in contact. He works thru my wife sometimes by stimulating anger/selfishness. He works thru my other friends as in things like gossip (bearing false witness) or greed/selfishness (having other Gods) or envy (coveting another’s goods) etc. For me, these two most dear friends (one male and one female) are my greatest non-family defenses against the work of the Devil. I trust in these friends as the love we have for each other is of God. My wife’s encouragement is an endorsement of that confidence.
Despite my disagreement on this matter, I appreciate your views. It is good that we provide sincere counsel to our brethren in Christ while at the same time not expressing judgment as that is a role exclusively Gods.
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kage_ar
Guest
AMEN!
And BTW, if ya’ll see me out to lunch with a man and we give each other a big hug as we go back to work… remember, don’t judge that expression of close friendship.
Kage
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Mt19_26
Guest
Just a quick off topic comment here. We are called to judge one another. It’s our duty as Catholics to judge the deeds and actions of others. What we are not to do is judge whether or not someone is going to Heaven or hell.
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Princess_Abby
Guest
Operating on “what ifs” are extremely exhausting and can never be truly efficient in warding off all scenarios which may or may not lead one individual or another to sin.
What if you flip on the tv for your three year old to find Sesame Street. What if in turning the channel you come across a Victoria Secret’s commercial. What if you later can’t stop visions of this commercial from invading your thoughts and eventually it leads you to solitary sin–unfaithful in a sense to your wife. Should you never turn on the television again? Not even for educational programs like Sesame Street or the news?
What if you sign up for an email account and use heavy-duty spam filtering. What if despite these efforts, you still get an email for porn. What if as you’re trying to delete it, your mouse runs over it and accidentally opens it and suddenly your eyes are assaulted and later fantasizing takes over and ends up as solitary sin and OOP, you’ve just been unfaithful to your wife.
What if you are driving down the highway and see a billboard for an adult dancing club and one things lead to another… Should you never drive on the highway again?
It’s all about choices.
I keep reading again and again from the posters who are against “close” friendships with male/female counterparts (though I still don’t feel like that’s even been defined by more than one person, but anyway) that despite all evidence of fidelity, no one can truly “know for sure” that any possible friendly interaction with a member of the opposite sex will not lead to an adulterous affair. It’s so speculative and wrapped up in a lack of trust and what ifs. If that’s the logic you are going to adhere to, then it should follow that situations like I mentioned above should be safeguarded against–but, the problem with that is simply the endless amounts of possibilities out there that “could” lead to unfaithfulness.
Those of you who have had spouses be unfaithful, that is a different story. Trust is breached and it’s not rebulit overnight. As Dr. Phil is fond of saying, and as research suggests, the best predicter or future behavior is past behavior. That also applies to those of us who have always been faithful, devoted spouses who cherish our marriages and exclusive relationships with our husband or wife. Meaning that if there is no reason to distrust, why start wasting time and energy worrying about something that most likely, given past behavior, will never happen? But if someone has had an unfaithful spouse, I can certainly understand a reluctance to be trusting in certain situations or circumstances that leads to a lot of one on one time with a member of the opposite sex.
What if you flip on the tv for your three year old to find Sesame Street. What if in turning the channel you come across a Victoria Secret’s commercial. What if you later can’t stop visions of this commercial from invading your thoughts and eventually it leads you to solitary sin–unfaithful in a sense to your wife. Should you never turn on the television again? Not even for educational programs like Sesame Street or the news?
What if you sign up for an email account and use heavy-duty spam filtering. What if despite these efforts, you still get an email for porn. What if as you’re trying to delete it, your mouse runs over it and accidentally opens it and suddenly your eyes are assaulted and later fantasizing takes over and ends up as solitary sin and OOP, you’ve just been unfaithful to your wife.
What if you are driving down the highway and see a billboard for an adult dancing club and one things lead to another… Should you never drive on the highway again?
It’s all about choices.
I keep reading again and again from the posters who are against “close” friendships with male/female counterparts (though I still don’t feel like that’s even been defined by more than one person, but anyway) that despite all evidence of fidelity, no one can truly “know for sure” that any possible friendly interaction with a member of the opposite sex will not lead to an adulterous affair. It’s so speculative and wrapped up in a lack of trust and what ifs. If that’s the logic you are going to adhere to, then it should follow that situations like I mentioned above should be safeguarded against–but, the problem with that is simply the endless amounts of possibilities out there that “could” lead to unfaithfulness.
Those of you who have had spouses be unfaithful, that is a different story. Trust is breached and it’s not rebulit overnight. As Dr. Phil is fond of saying, and as research suggests, the best predicter or future behavior is past behavior. That also applies to those of us who have always been faithful, devoted spouses who cherish our marriages and exclusive relationships with our husband or wife. Meaning that if there is no reason to distrust, why start wasting time and energy worrying about something that most likely, given past behavior, will never happen? But if someone has had an unfaithful spouse, I can certainly understand a reluctance to be trusting in certain situations or circumstances that leads to a lot of one on one time with a member of the opposite sex.
K
kage_ar
Guest
For me, it is acquaintances and friends – I really do not categorize my friends, that ended with childhood (Susan is my best friend and I am her best friend, so I cannot be your best friend but I will be your second-best friend and we will all play barbies together…)
I’ve different interactions with different friends – if I want to discuss a religious matter, I’ll call my friend Nanda. If I want to go see a good movie or and sit up arguing politics til the wee hours, I’ll call Patrick. If I want to be with someone who is so much like me that it is scary, it’s Davina. If I want carreer advice, it is Dub. And when I’ve had a terrible day and want to drink a glass of wine and listen to stories of the #1 drama queen, I call Kim. Are any of these friends closer than others – nope, we intersect at different points. I’d lay down in front of a bus for any of them
Guess I cannot define what is a close friend…
I’ve different interactions with different friends – if I want to discuss a religious matter, I’ll call my friend Nanda. If I want to go see a good movie or and sit up arguing politics til the wee hours, I’ll call Patrick. If I want to be with someone who is so much like me that it is scary, it’s Davina. If I want carreer advice, it is Dub. And when I’ve had a terrible day and want to drink a glass of wine and listen to stories of the #1 drama queen, I call Kim. Are any of these friends closer than others – nope, we intersect at different points. I’d lay down in front of a bus for any of them
Guess I cannot define what is a close friend…
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Orionthehunter
Guest
Mt19:26:
You see me at lunch or dinner with a woman that is not my wife. We are obviously having an annimated conversation and we are obviously very well acquainted. After dinner, I pay and then we hug affectionately (I am a pretty indiscriminate hugger).
You don’t know if this is my mother (well you might be able to tell ), if it is my sister, if it is my wife’s sister, if it is my wife’s best friend and we are planning my wife’s surprise birthday party, if it is my tax accountant who just saved me a bundle, if it a dear high school friend in town for a visit, if is a former co-worker who was back in town sharing with me her new life and info on her family, if it is one of my 14 female cousins. Unless you know who she is, you won’t know anything. And it would be wrong for you to make one single presumption.
There are people who are quick to make presumptions with no facts or insufficient “facts” (I’m not accusing you of this but there are such people) and it is sinful. At our recent mission at our parish, the visiting Priest when talking about sin said that gossip is the #1 sin that he hears confessed. He specifically said that even gossip that is true is likely sinful and if it is false he makes it clear that such sin is grave matter and can be a mortal sin.
But you better do it with factual knowledge or your judgment is sinful. If you tell anyone **anything ** negative based on presumption or only partial facts you have borne false witness against me.
You see me at lunch or dinner with a woman that is not my wife. We are obviously having an annimated conversation and we are obviously very well acquainted. After dinner, I pay and then we hug affectionately (I am a pretty indiscriminate hugger).
You don’t know if this is my mother (well you might be able to tell
), if it is my sister, if it is my wife’s sister, if it is my wife’s best friend and we are planning my wife’s surprise birthday party, if it is my tax accountant who just saved me a bundle, if it a dear high school friend in town for a visit, if is a former co-worker who was back in town sharing with me her new life and info on her family, if it is one of my 14 female cousins. Unless you know who she is, you won’t know anything. And it would be wrong for you to make one single presumption.There are people who are quick to make presumptions with no facts or insufficient “facts” (I’m not accusing you of this but there are such people) and it is sinful. At our recent mission at our parish, the visiting Priest when talking about sin said that gossip is the #1 sin that he hears confessed. He specifically said that even gossip that is true is likely sinful and if it is false he makes it clear that such sin is grave matter and can be a mortal sin.
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Princess_Abby
Guest
Thank you, exactly. My husband is my best friend and the person whom I most love talking to about a variety of issues, my feelings, fears, etc. But I have plenty of friends whom share an interest or two or three with me and there is no reason to not enjoy conversation with them as well. That doesn’t mean I love my husband less, it just means I enjoy interacting and having a social life! Whether that makes them “just friends” “close friends” or whatever else, I don’t know. All I know is that talking about religion or politics or parenting or telling funny stories about a picnic three years ago doesn’t make me feel attracted to someone other then my spouse!
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