Original sin/ Islamic point of view

[inJESUS]

Hi inJesus,

Adam was born with both abilities (i.e to commit sin and not to) and this is how God created man.

If man was created perfect with no ability to commit sin, then God’s command to Adam to refrain from the forbiden tree, makes no sense.

Before eating the forbidden tree Adam was obviously sinless thus he was born sinless. It is this first and foremost nature we all inherit as such we all are born sinless thus if you die when you are a baby, you deserve heaven, Eternal life.

Now the changes that took place in Adam’s existence after eating the forbidden tree, are not like inheritable otherwise God would not have accepted Adam’s repentance and He would have let him suffer eternally. But since God did accept his repentace/prayer, thus whatever change(s) happened in Adam’s physical body is due to his personal act and shouldn’t have a domino effect or continuous inheritable effect. This change may be taken as, if you eat/drink/swallow certain chemicals that you are allergic to, then if any drastic/severe changes happened in your body; then these changes may not neccessarily effect your nature or cease your ability to do good things as such your progeny may not be as rebellious/pious as you are. The most they may inherit from you is some or more or similar physical/genetical properties of you but spiritual/character will be their own and not neccessarily just like yours.

The initial and first command/warning of God to Adam itself is a proof that God had given man a free choice to man to excercise it even in the Paradise.

Now that Paradise is not neccessarily the same type of Paradise (heaven) that the Law abiding people with God’s Mercy will eventually inherit in the Afterlife because these man who are going to live in the Heaven in the Afterlife, are spiritualised men and not men like of Adam or our present physical nature. Because when Adam was born, it was his first birth, and he was placed in the Garden as it is and not after his death and resurrected spiritual form.

So the heaven that Adam was placed in and the one all godly people will dwell in after their spiritualised resurrection, may not neccessarily the same and not neccessarily a sign of closeness to God, because God is beyond human imagination and everything (that is known and unkown to men) are within God’s control but God is not neccessarily exists/resides in every created thing or everywhere.

And at the end of the day (as FAITH said), no other person is responsible for your sins/mistakes or good deeds. Period.
Logically and rationally the greatness of man should not be him being born as totally immune to commit any sin. The greatness and God’s Mercy on man is him being born with both abilities of doing sin/mistake or refrain from sin/mistake, and then if commits any sin/mistake repent to God becaue this life is a trial with free choice. If you are born sinless thus did not make mistake then what trial you really went through? If you wear a fire proof dress head to toe and burned yourself with fire and did not die, and claimed that “see I did not die nor fire burned my up nor I was afraid of fire while I burning myself”, then I would say “what is the big deal?”

regarding original sin, there are theological schools about it so it’s not a big deal for me whether we have the same exact interpretation or not…unlike what muslims think, it is not the original sin idea that made Jesus’ death purposefull…whether you believe in orginal sin or original grace is fine with me.

Now comig to Jesus’ birth. He too was a man and born as a man just like Adam. Thus Jesus’ greatness is despite being born just like us, refrained from all major sins.

Jesus born like Adam? what do you mean?

Saying that Jesus was God and did not commit sin, is a meaningless statement. Because, what God had to do with the sins, anyway? God is God.

yea but why are you discussing this here and where did you get the idea from?

Did you notice how meaningless is your idea of God becoming a perfect sinless man?

would you remind me of where i wrote this?

 

[Faith101]

no need to refuse anything just cuz it could be linked to Jesus…that’s paranoic as if nothing related to Jesus is correct for muhammad…if you do not believe in the burden, then look at humanity…Adam= humanity.

All what you are doing here is trying to set the stage for the need of the murder of an innocent man. So I just cut right to the chase, as they say. Please correct me if im wrong…you believe Jesus died for you, so that you may be “holy” enough to be with God, freeing you of that “sin” that you inherited from Adam. If that is your basis, then you will have to spend hours on this thread trying to prove that we indeed did inherit this from Adam. All this, at the end, to justify that Jesus had to die.

But let me summarize the muslims side

1. Adam sinned, repented, and was forgiven. End of “original sin”
2. We are born sin-less, with only the free-will nature that God has given us which we use to either choose the path of righteousness or the path of evil. We will never be perfect, we werent created that way. But we try to stay on the straight path, making mistakes left and right, and being forgiven for them as long as we repent.
3. No body has to die for anybody to be allowed to be in the presence of God. God’s mercy works like that. And before you say it, i’m gong to say it again…the delicate balance between God’s mercy and God’s justice is easy for Him to keep…He is the all-knowing, most-wise.

 

[inJESUS]

All what you are doing here is trying to set the stage for the need of the murder of an innocent man. So I just cut right to the chase, as they say. Please correct me if im wrong…you believe Jesus died for you, so that you may be “holy” enough to be with God, freeing you of that “sin” that you inherited from Adam. If that is your basis, then you will have to spend hours on this thread trying to prove that we indeed did inherit this from Adam. All this, at the end, to justify that Jesus had to die.

allow me to correct you and to give you a small clue :

i said in the previous post that the original sin is a theological idea that not all schools of theology adopt…there are those who believe in Original grace instead…so whether you prefer this concept or the other one, the fact remains that Jesus was crucified…that is the starting point and the theological schools are a consequence…so : you do not HAVE to believe in original sin to believe that Jesus died. Those who believe in original grace believe that Jesus died as well…in fact, you might find different theological schools, but you will find none that denies Jesus’ death whether Christians or Jews…this is the starting point.

Anyway, i did not start a thread to give a “reason” to Jesus’ death…Jesus died, that’s a fact.
My point was to explain a bit this concept from a philosophical point of view…and i found the same idea in quran. So saying that original sin is a silly concept is wrong even islamically…Jesus’ death is not what am interested to talk about cuz this is a fact.

But let me summarize the muslims side

1. Adam sinned, repented, and was forgiven. End of “original sin”

how so? Adam knew “shame”…yes Adam was forgiven, but we are back to the change in his nature when he disobeyed and the quran agrees : it made Adam see his " shame"

1. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their **shame ** became manifest to them,

= when they disobeyed God, they knew what shame is…a change occured…can you delete the knowlege of shame anymore?no…can you say that Adam is the same now? no…he is not innocent anymore…doing good has nothing to do with this.

now if you don’t want to talk about Adam, you tell me, is human nature perfect? where do thoughtsof murder, lust, rape, hurting come from? from your nature no? you previously said human nature isn’t perfect…now your problem is with the"inheritance" stuff…whether Adam made you inherit it or not, is the result the same or not?

1. We are born sin-less, with only the free-will nature that God has given us which we use to either choose the path of righteousness or the path of evil. We will never be perfect, we werent created that way

but you were created sinless which i agree with…but why can’t you stay as such?.why will sinful ideas crept into your mind ? isn’t it human nature?whether Allah forgives or not is a different topic…if Allah forgives you your sins, will your nature change? no, you will try not to commit them, but will your nature change?

1. No body has to die for anybody to be allowed to be in the presence of God. God’s mercy works like that. And before you say it, i’m gong to say it again…the delicate balance between God’s mercy and God’s justice is easy for Him to keep…He is the all-knowing, most-wise.

unfortunatly, mercy that is shown after you die and based on a condition is not considered mercy…

when God saves ALL without condition, THIS is called mercy.Now you will ask me : but there is a condition, you must believe in Jesus! so i’ll tell you : God tells us : you are saved, do you accept it? if you say : no thank you, whose fault is it?

 

[Faith101]

you do not HAVE to believe in original sin to believe that Jesus died. Those who believe in original grace believe that Jesus died as well…in fact, you might find different theological schools, but you will find none that denies Jesus’ death whether Christians or Jews…this is the starting point.

Good point…why do they believe that Jesus had to die? Does it still stem from the same idea that we can never be holy enough to be in the presence of God?

Anyway, i did not start a thread to give a “reason” to Jesus’ death…Jesus died, that’s a fact.

not for 1.3 billion people

= when they disobeyed God, they knew what shame is…a change occured…can you delete the knowlege of shame anymore?no…can you say that Adam is the same now? no…he is not innocent anymore…doing good has nothing to do with this.

What does that have to do with me, a human being living in the 21st century? My nature is not due to the fact that Adam sinned, but due to the fact that this is the nature that God chose for humans.

but you were created sinless which i agree with…but why can’t you stay as such?.why will sinful ideas crept into your mind ? isn’t it human nature?whether Allah forgives or not is a different topic…if Allah forgives you your sins, will your nature change? no, you will try not to commit them, but will your nature change?

Just so i can understand you better, do you believe that our nature is due to the fact that Adam sinned and not in that God created us with these natures?

unfortunatly, mercy that is shown after you die and based on a condition is not considered mercy…

If you fail to see the mercy of God in this world, there is really nothing i can do to help you with that.

when God saves ALL without condition, THIS is called mercy.Now you will ask me : but there is a condition, you must believe in Jesus! so i’ll tell you : God tells us : you are saved, do you accept it? if you say : no thank you, whose fault is it

lol. No conditions huh…oh yeah, except one. Thats what we call a CONDITION. Likewise, in Islam, all you have to do is believe and do good. Thats it…nobody is asking you to be perfect. iF you mess up, just repent, Allah PROMISES to forgive you…again and again and again until your very last breath.

I worship the same God that Jesus and Abraham and Moses prostrated to. I do not need to believe that a bunch of evil people were capable of killing the fullly-human-fully-god only begotten son of God who is really God to go to paradise. Alhamdulilah for Islam.

 

[inJESUS]

Good point…why do they believe that Jesus had to die? Does it still stem from the same idea that we can never be holy enough to be in the presence of God?

am not very familiar with this doctrine so i don’t know it in details…as i said,the starting point is that Jesus died: whether he had to die or not is irrelevant in our discussion cuz his death is part of the salvation whether he came “to die” or to preach “but was killed”…mind you, am talking about theological ideas that have a reason: Jesus’ crucifixion. So we have a fact vs theological responses to “why” he died.

not for 1.3 billion people

a fact is called a fact because it is a historical proven fact…when we have the opinion of one man whose version of what happened is neither clear nor understandable nor backed up by a single proof, that is not fact. So you can say muslims have “faith” in what a single man said, but you cannot use the term “fact” cuz when we use it, we use it because it is the testimony of many, whether Christians, Jews or pagans.

What does that have to do with me, a human being living in the 21st century? My nature is not due to the fact that Adam sinned, but due to the fact that this is the nature that God chose for humans.

i just quoted the quran that says Adam (humanity) knew “shame” when they listened to Satan (evil). That’s the theological point.

Just so i can understand you better, do you believe that our nature is due to the fact that Adam sinned and not in that God created us with these natures?

i believe that God created us with the ability to choose between evil/good cuz He doesn’t want robots. Unfortunately, human nature tends to do evil more than good…that’s why our parents taught us as babies not to hurt, not to steal, not to rape , not to curse ecc…
The Word became flesh to be our model of holiness: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me." "I am the way, and the truth, and the life

Jesus came to make us holy, by teaching us and giving us a live example of what God wants and how to be good…and it is indeed very tough to follow His example unless you have a divine love and power. I personally ask Jesus’ forgiveness everyday if i got angry at someone, if i didn’t help when i could , if i felt envious of something, if i felt scared thou He said “do not fear” ecc…see, it is tough to be as good as Jesus. Only His power strenghthens me and i was a totally different person before Jesus entered my life. Yes, human nature is not evil only when you kill or rape, but when you curse, envy, be selfish, do not give when you could, have bad intentions , mock someone even in your heart, ecc…to be as pure as Jesus wants is only achieved by the miracle of His love. This is when your nature tends really to being good instead of evil.

As i said before, whether i believe we inherit this nature literally from Adam or not, i don’t think it’s the focus point…it is a theological point but you can understand it by looking within and around you.

If you fail to see the mercy of God in this world, there is really nothing i can do to help you with that.

i already told you in a previous post that am not talking about this but about His mercy regarding your salvation.

Allah will show his mercy regarding your salvation after you die and based on your deeds…like 49% vs 51%. So there is always this fear of not being saved.

God already showed it and i have to accept or refuse…if i accept and follow Him, am saved. And there is no fear when Jesus said a thousand time : do not fear. There is this peace that Jesus gives as He promised.

lol. No conditions huh…oh yeah, except one. Thats what we call a CONDITION.

it’s not a condition but a choice…and if you refuse it, am not gonna tell you you are doomed for Jesus said : i have sheep in other barns.

I worship the same God that Jesus and Abraham and Moses prostrated to. I do not need to believe that a bunch of evil people were capable of killing the fullly-human-fully-god only begotten son of God who is really God to go to paradise. Alhamdulilah for Islam.

you can believe whatever you want

 

[Faith101]

Allah will show his mercy regarding your salvation after you die and based on your deeds…like 49% vs 51%. So there is always this fear of not being saved.

God already showed it and i have to accept or refuse…if i accept and follow Him, am saved. And there is no fear when Jesus said a thousand time : do not fear. There is this peace that Jesus gives as He promised.

I apologize for not responding to your whole post, they are all good points that we can go back and forth on for hours. But here, you have said something new…and it reminded me of a verse in the Quran (actually many verses, but i will only quote a few)

Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to Allah and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 2:112)

Verily those who say, “Our Lord is Allah,” and remain firm (on that Path),- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (46:13)

it’s not a condition but a choice…and if you refuse it, am not gonna tell you you are doomed for Jesus said : i have sheep in other barns.

its a condition. A condition is also based on a choice, either fullfull the condition or dont Its the same in Islam, choose to beleive and do right or dont choose to believe and do right.

 

[inJESUS]

my point regarding condition is that salvation is for all who accept it…that is, God already gave salvation but He will not oblige you to be with Him if you refuse.

This salvation does not exist in Islam…that is, Allah did nothing to save people, it is people on their owns who must earn it. Am not saying thou that in Christianity you are saved even if you do bad deeds…but my point is beyond that : it is what God did…in Christianity, God took the initiative to reconcile us to Him…just like a father who loves his children no matter what and does the impossible to save them from danger…in Islam there is no such thing…Allah is like a master and you are slaves who must earn things yourselves to please him…As far as i know, in islam there is no assurance…even mohammad is quoted saying he doesn’t know where he will end up, and in quran one reads:
Say: I am not the first of the apostles, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.

That’s it…Jesus did not die for some people, he died for all so that all can come to the Father throu him, guaranteed…so God already saved.

 

[joebaydi]

Greetings

“Allah did nothing to save people, it is people on their owns who must earn it.”

To begin with, we muslims believe this life to be a test. We can chose to do good/bad. It is our decision what we want to do and only we have control of ourselves. However this doesn’t mean God has just created us, forsaken us and observing what we do.

We believe God has done us an enourmous favour of guiding us by sending many prophets and messengers with knowledgable books, pointing people in the right direction. In addition there are other favours that God has done for us. For example God wants us to become closer to Him by enforcing muslims to fast 1 month a year. Fasting, in Islam, itself is an increasingly effective method of increasing piety and awareness of God, according to research as well as experience. The list of favours is endless.

“As far as i know, in islam there is no assurance…even mohammad is quoted saying he doesn’t know where he will end up…”

It is correct that Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) does not know the outcome of himself or others on Judgement day. Had he known the outcome, he would have been the Judge, but only God is the Judge, and only God makes the final decision.

I hope this makes things clear

 

[inJESUS]

Greetings

hello

To begin with, we muslims believe this life to be a test. We can chose to do good/bad. It is our decision what we want to do and only we have control of ourselves. However this doesn’t mean God has just created us, forsaken us and observing what we do.

fine

We believe God has done us an enourmous favour of guiding us by sending many prophets and messengers with knowledgable books, pointing people in the right direction.

one problem here…according to muslims ( and not Quran), Allah allowed 2 of his books to be corrupted, why?

In addition there are other favours that God has done for us. For example God wants us to become closer to Him by enforcing muslims to fast 1 month a year. Fasting, in Islam, itself is an increasingly effective method of increasing piety and awareness of God, according to research as well as experience. The list of favours is endless.

fine

“As far as i know, in islam there is no assurance…even mohammad is quoted saying he doesn’t know where he will end up…”

It is correct that Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) does not know the outcome of himself or others on Judgement day. Had he known the outcome, he would have been the Judge, but only God is the Judge, and only God makes the final decision.

fine as well… and it proves my point…in Islam, no guarantee hence mercy is shown later and on condition.

I hope this makes things clear

thx i personally know this, maybe others are learning…appreciated

 

[inJESUS]

oh you are new Welcome !!

 

[joebaydi]

Thanks for the warm welcome

“one problem here…according to muslims ( and not Quran), Allah allowed 2 of his books to be corrupted, why?”

Good question

We believe books when unprotected from God, would naturally become corrupted, due to the vast amount of enemies of these books. Firstly, the corruption of the books was caused by man’s free will and God had already known this before hand.

If God was not to protect any of his books, then He would have to keep sending prophets one after the other, forever, to guide people. This would just cause more chaos and damage to mankind in the end. We believe God had already planned to put an end to this, by using the conclusive Quran:

Muslims believe prophets came with miracles Moses (AS) came with the magic, splitting the sea, Jesus (AS) came with the healing, curing the sick without medicine, however Muhammed (pbuh) came with the Quran.

Due to Moses’ and Jesus’ miracles that they performed, being physical or ‘temporary’ , a modern day person has no proof that these miracles actually took place. It is fair to say that these miracles had to be witnessed by the eye to be completely believed. The Quran, being a ‘Textual’ miracle, could be preserved unlike a physical miracle. This makes it perfect for its purpose of being a conclusive and permanent message. We believe it to be an everlasting miracle that one is able to witness for himself to this day, if studied.

It had to be made to stand out, to greatly exceed the other altered books, after all ,we believe it is a miracle itself, thus making it the ultimate, strongest message.

I hope this answers your question

 

[inJESUS]

Thanks for the warm welcome

ya ahlan

We believe books when unprotected from God, would naturally become corrupted, due to the vast amount of enemies of these books. Firstly, the corruption of the books was caused by man’s free will and God had already known this before hand.

why would God unprotect 2 books?

If God was not to protect any of his books, then He would have to keep sending prophets one after the other, forever, to guide people. This would just cause more chaos and damage to mankind in the end. We believe God had already planned to put an end to this, by using the conclusive Quran:

so God allowed the corruption of more than 40 prophets then decided to settle on one?

Muslims believe prophets came with miracles Moses (AS) came with the magic, splitting the sea, Jesus (AS) came with the healing, curing the sick without medicine, however Muhammed (pbuh) came with the Quran.

don’t you think such a miracle is subjective?

Due to Moses’ and Jesus’ miracles that they performed, being physical or ‘temporary’ , a modern day person has no proof that these miracles actually took place.

the proof is cripture.

It is fair to say that these miracles had to be witnessed by the eye to be completely believed. The Quran, being a ‘Textual’ miracle, could be preserved unlike a physical miracle.

the miracle is that it was preserved?

This makes it perfect for its purpose of being a conclusive and permanent message. We believe it to be an everlasting miracle that one is able to witness for himself to this day, if studied.

are you an arab?

 

[Faith101]

why would God unprotect 2 books?

b/c they were meant for only those people that those specific prophets were sent to. That is why many many prophets were sent, to re-establish the pure message.

Now Allah has revealed the last message with the last messenger…now, if its the last messenger, then it has to be protected, b/c no one else is going to come along and re-establish the pure monotheism.

 

[joebaydi]

Salamun Alaikum

“are you an arab?”

Yes

“why would God unprotect 2 books?”

By unprotecting the 2 books, the books would be altered. By altering the books, their quality falls rapidly below the original version. By lowering the quality of these books, it makes the Quran stand out even further, giving it an even higher status.

“so God allowed the corruption of more than 40 prophets then decided to settle on one?”

We believe that God sent prophets with missions, the harder the mission, the better the prophet must be. In this instance, God wanted to deliver the Quran, which was immune to alterations; this being the hardest mission. This difficult task would only be cmpleted successfully by sending down the best of prophets, i.e. Prophet Muhammed (saws).

“don’t you think such a miracle is subjective?”

We believe the Quran to be a clear miracle, if studied correctly, the reader will witness this miracle. In addition, we believe the Quran to contain too many miracles to be considered somewhat subjective.

“the proof is cripture.”

Scripture* I take it Prove to me this scripture is reliable and speaks the truth.

“the miracle is that it was preserved?”

I think you misunderstood me when I used the word ‘textual’. What I mean is that the way the Quran was written (content meaning…etc) is considered the miracle itself. This miracle enabled the Quran to be preserved in its original state, and therefore its textual state is perfectly adapted to its purpose of being a miracle that can be witnessed till the end of time.

Are you an arab?

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

b/c they were meant for only those people that those specific prophets were sent to. That is why many many prophets were sent, to re-establish the pure message.

Now Allah has revealed the last message with the last messenger…now, if its the last messenger, then it has to be protected, b/c no one else is going to come along and re-establish the pure monotheism.

This has been debunked on many occasions! Jesus told his apostles to go and make disciples OF ALL THE NATIONS, WHICH MEANS THAT HIS MESSAGE WAS UNIVERSAL!

Vickie

 

[Faith101]

Booklover:

This has been debunked on many occasions! Jesus told his apostles to go and make disciples OF ALL THE NATIONS, WHICH MEANS THAT HIS MESSAGE WAS UNIVERSAL!

Vickie

Jesus was very cautious in relaying his message to anyone outside of the Children of Israel. He even hesistated to help a woman in need b/c she was not part of the Children of Israel.

as for the verse that you mention above, i was reading a book by a man who graduated from harvard with a degree in divinity who said that that verse was still undergoing changes done by the christian churches until the 4 th century. And that one CHristian scholar and bible commentator said that the verse probably reflects the early church’s interpretation more than Jesus’ actual words…among other things. If you are interested, i can summarize the chapter that talks about that. I dont know much about this topic, but you can do the research for yourself if your interested.

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

Jesus was very cautious in relaying his message to anyone outside of the Children of Israel. He even hesistated to help a woman in need b/c she was not part of the Children of Israel.

as for the verse that you mention above, i was reading a book by a man who graduated from harvard with a degree in divinity who said that that verse was still undergoing changes done by the christian churches until the 4 th century. And that one CHristian scholar and bible commentator said that the verse probably reflects the early church’s interpretation more than Jesus’ actual words…among other things. If you are interested, i can summarize the chapter that talks about that. I dont know much about this topic, but you can do the research for yourself if your interested.

The chosen people had prior claim to his message, that’s why he preached to them first. But he did help the woman after testing her faith. The footnote states that “Jesus here breaks with his usual procedure of ministering only to Israelites and anticipates the mission to the Gentiles”.

Look at the way he healed the two demoniacs in the territory of the Gadarenes by allowing the demons to enter the swine. The fact that those people kept pigs, meant that they were gentiles and he did not hesitate to help them.

There’s also the centurion’s servant. Here was a gentile who truly believed in Jesus’ help:

Mt.8 10:13 When Jesus heard his, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Amen, I say to you, in none in Israel have I found such faith. I say to you, many will come from the east and the west, and will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the banquet in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.” And Jesus said to the centurion, “you may go; as you have believed, let it be done for you.” And at the very hour his servant was healed.

The footnote for 8, 11-12 talks about the entrance of Gentiles into the kingdom and exclusion of those Israelites who, though descended from the patriarchs and member of the chosen nation, refused to belive in Jesus.

Vickie

 

[Faith101]

The chosen people had prior claim to his message, that’s why he preached to them first. But he did help the woman after testing her faith. The footnote states that “Jesus here breaks with his usual procedure of ministering only to Israelites and anticipates the mission to the Gentiles”.

If you read the verse Jesus refused, saying “i was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” and even after that, she begged him, falling to her knees…and even then he told her “it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs” so up to this point he refused…until she showed greatness of her faith by her last comment.

He refused 3 times. I dont see where this is showing an anticipation to take the message outside of the Children of Israel. If she didnt beg, and then show great faith…he would have continued walking away.

Look at the way he healed the two demoniacs in the territory of the Gadarenes by allowing the demons to enter the swine. The fact that those people kept pigs, meant that they were gentiles and he did not hesitate to help them.

i’m not familiar with this story…can u give verse numbers

Mt.8 10:13 When Jesus heard his, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Amen, I say to you, in none in Israel have I found such faith. I say to you, many will come from the east and the west, and will recline with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the banquet in the kingdom of heaven, but the children of the kingdom will be driven out into the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.” And Jesus said to the centurion, “you may go; as you have believed, let it be done for you.” And at the very hour his servant was healed.

That was after the man sent some Jews to plead Jesus to come. Then those Jews had to plead with Jesus explaining that this man was one who had great faith, saying “he is worthy of having you do this for him, for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us” And even after that, it was only when the slave showed great faith by his comment that Jesus cured him.

The examples you mention are not normal examples, but ones that are surronded by unusual circumstances…of people, outside of the Children of Israel, who had to beg (or send a delegation of Jews to plead on their behalf) for Jesus to cure them.

But on the other hand, Jesus would help the Children of Israel on his own without any such test of faith on their part.

 

[Booklover]

Faith101:

If you read the verse Jesus refused, saying “i was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” and even after that, she begged him, falling to her knees…and even then he told her “it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs” so up to this point he refused…until she showed greatness of her faith by her last comment.

He refused 3 times. I dont see where this is showing an anticipation to take the message outside of the Children of Israel. If she didnt beg, and then show great faith…he would have continued walking away.

He could still have walked away without helping her, but he didn’t, did he!

i’m not familiar with this story…can u give verse numbers

Mt 8, 29-34, Mk 5, 1-20, Lk 8, 26-39.

That was after the man sent some Jews to plead Jesus to come. Then those Jews had to plead with Jesus explaining that this man was one who had great faith, saying “he is worthy of having you do this for him, for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us” And even after that, it was only when the slave showed great faith by his comment that Jesus cured him.

The examples you mention are not normal examples, but ones that are surronded by unusual circumstances…of people, outside of the Children of Israel, who had to beg (or send a delegation of Jews to plead on their behalf) for Jesus to cure them.

But on the other hand, Jesus would help the Children of Israel on his own without any such test of faith on their part.

Again, because they had the prior claim! He helped all who asked him for help, regardless of who they were. There is not one instance where he did not help someone because he was a gentile!

If Jesus’ message was not universal as you claim, why did the Holy Spirit at Pentecost give the apostles the power to preach and to be understood in other peoples’ languages?

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

b/c they were meant for only those people that those specific prophets were sent to.

Your Lord is one is sent for specific people? Do not steal , murder, be good ecc are universal or limited?
the scriptures refute this claim…but i’ll go further than that : if God gave teachings to “certain” people, why does it have to be altered later? why does God allow that humans corrupt his Holy Word? why does God concede to the sinfulness of humans?

That is why many many prophets were sent, to re-establish the pure message.

according to Quran, there are 120 + prophets…so Allah failed to preserve the scripture of 120 prophets but didn’t fail with a single man?

Now Allah has revealed the last message with the last messenger…

so finally, after 120 prophets who failed, Allah decides that this one won’t?? is he a discrimitation deity that billions of people get corrupted books but others no?