Panetta to lift ban on women in combat

[LisaA]

Well, as I said before: any woman who wants combat that bad, she can take my place in the next war. I will be perfectly happy to let her go in my place. So long, sweetie—good luck, keep your head down and your weapon dry. Been there, done that, got the PTSD to prove it. You wanna scramble your head the way I got my scrambled, good for you, dear.

Sort of resembles the homosexuals and their fellow travellers who not only abuse the system (courts) for their personal gain (mainstreaming of their specific perversion), they also demand that the culture be drastically altered (marriage) to include their specific perversion, doesn’t it?

Don’t know if you noticed my post above yours but that same thought came to me as well. I think so many “progressive” ideas are created by a narcissist “all about ME ME ME” focus.

You note a consistent lack of reason for their demands, how society will benefit, how the military will become better at defending America. It’s almost a perpetual state of self absorbed, adolescant thinking on their part.

My thanks for your service and sacrifice for our country. I think we all hope no one of either sex will have to go through a similar experience.
Lisa

 

[Wolseley]

Don’t know if you noticed my post above yours but that same thought came to me as well. I think so many “progressive” ideas are created by a narcissist “all about ME ME ME” focus.

You note a consistent lack of reason for their demands, how society will benefit, how the military will become better at defending America. It’s almost a perpetual state of self absorbed, adolescant thinking on their part.

Well, it’s the way kids have been raised for the last 30 years; they’ve been brought up to believe that it really is all about them. Don’t do anything to damage their precious little psyches; don’t punish them for anything; make sure there are no consequenses for their actions; absolve them of all responsibility; and make sure that everybody is always a winner, in everything, all the time.

As a result, they’re more self-absorbed than Narcissus.

My thanks for your service and sacrifice for our country. I think we all hope no one of either sex will have to go through a similar experience.
Lisa

You’re welcome. I’m pretty much all right since the VA put me on meds, unless I’m exposed to sudden, unexpected loud noises, especially if they resemble gunfire; then I get kind of freaky. I can deal with that, however. What I’m very glad that I’m no longer dealing with is waking up at two in the morning and lying there wrestling with thoughts of suicide for three or four hours at a pop. I may be taking nine or ten meds every day, but at least I’m not dealing with that every night any more.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Come to think of it, is Panetta going to lift the age discrimination also? Why should people like me that are “too old,” yet can easily meet all the physical requirements, be excluded? Is it political correctness for some, but not all?

 

[epan]

Being a woman is not the same as being disabled. Have one standard for fitness, anyone who can meet it is in, anyone who can’t is out. There will many who will not make it, but that is better than having an all-out ban on women just because they are women.

I ran 8 miles in soft sand every day during my lunch hour in the SEAL base on Coronado, and swam a couple of miles every day, at that time. While no SEAL was ever able to outrun me, it was not that unusual to maintain an equal pace. I have yet to meet a female who could keep up. A SEAL did outswim me on a 30 mile open water swim at night. It was just for fun, and I decided to get into the boat after 17 miles.

My point is, that I wonder how many realize the level of physical capability that special forces and even regular combat positions require.

 

[maximus]

I ran 8 miles in soft sand every day during my lunch hour in the SEAL base on Coronado, and swam a couple of miles every day, at that time. While no SEAL was ever able to outrun me, it was not that unusual to maintain an equal pace. I have yet to meet a female who could keep up. A SEAL did outswim me on a 30 mile open water swim at night. It was just for fun, and I decided to get into the boat after 17 miles.

My point is, that I wonder how many realize the level of physical capability that special forces and even regular combat positions require.

For illustration purposes, do you believe an elite female athlete like let say a Gina Carano, Serena Williams, or WWF Chynna in her heyday could handle this kind of regime?

Thank you for you service and God be with you.

 

[epan]

For illustration purposes, do you believe an elite female athlete like let say a Gina Carano, Serena Williams, or WWF Chynna in her heyday could handle this kind of regime?

Thank you for you service and God be with you.

I am sure that there are great female athletes. Such decisions are beyond my pay grade (thankfully). I would advocate the position that any women who wishes to serve be granted equal opportunity, with the caveat that she be qualified for any job. I would not want to see any well established standards to be lowered for political purposes.

I would say, take the very best female candidates into recon training, SEAL training, ranger training… and subject them to exactly the same standards. To my knowledge, this has never been attempted. As far as I know, the standards for physical strength and stamina have always been modified. For example, a female boot Marine must hang from a bar for a number of minutes. A male boot Marine must do pull-ups, lifting his body weight with each pull-up. There is no possibility of consideration for any elite unit unless the male performs to the highest standard. That is merely the prologue to special forces. So far, no female has been required to even graduate boot camp on par with any male.

If the standard is applied equally, then I am fine with it.

 

[LisaA]

Well, it’s the way kids have been raised for the last 30 years; they’ve been brought up to believe that it really is all about them. Don’t do anything to damage their precious little psyches; don’t punish them for anything; make sure there are no consequenses for their actions; absolve them of all responsibility; and make sure that everybody is always a winner, in everything, all the time.

As a result, they’re more self-absorbed than Narcissus.

You’re welcome. I’m pretty much all right since the VA put me on meds, unless I’m exposed to sudden, unexpected loud noises, especially if they resemble gunfire; then I get kind of freaky. I can deal with that, however. What I’m very glad that I’m no longer dealing with is waking up at two in the morning and lying there wrestling with thoughts of suicide for three or four hours at a pop. I may be taking nine or ten meds every day, but at least I’m not dealing with that every night any more.

So sorry to hear about the extended recovery process and additional thanks for your continued sacrifices. Our brains are wonderful and amazing things but sometimes it is so hard to undo the damage. I don’t know if we (VA?) have been making strides in understanding and treating PTSD. I hope so and may you see continued progress toward healing from the trauma.

I keep hoping this will not happen to another generation. Take care
Lisa

 

[GaryTaylor]

WASHINGTON – The first two female lieutenants to volunteer for the Marine Corps’ Infantry Officer Course failed to complete the program, the Marine Corps said Tuesday.

The first woman did not finish the combat endurance test at the beginning for the course in late September. Twenty-six of the 107 male Marines also did not finish the endurance test.

The second woman could not complete two required training events “due to medical reasons,” said Capt. Eric Flanagan, a Marine spokesman.

She is receiving treatment and is in “good condition,” Flanagan said, though the Marine Corps is not releasing specifics about her medical condition or any identifying information about either of the women.

military.com/daily-news/2012/10/17/first-women-fail-marine-infantry-officer-course.html

So far to date… no other women have applied.

 

[epan]

Pondering the issues… I guess I would adapt OK to living in combat conditions with mixed gender. It would take some adjustment. In recon training, we did engage in full body contact martial arts in our off time. I wouldn’t find it easy to try to strike a woman comrade. I suppose once she tried to kick me in the crotch, I would get over it. But, that is a real issue. Men are physically larger and stronger than women. They can hit each other hard in training. A woman hit with the same force is more likely to be injured.

Two women just washed out of infantry officer’s school for physical reasons. I have yet to hear of a woman meeting physical standards for any elite front line combat training. My hope, is that the standards will not be lowered, but that if women serve in these units, that they will find a way to meet the current standards. I would also point out, that the actual demands of combat exceed the demands of training. So, if one can’t complete training successfully, then one should not be in combat.

 

[Wolseley]

So sorry to hear about the extended recovery process and additional thanks for your continued sacrifices. Our brains are wonderful and amazing things but sometimes it is so hard to undo the damage. I don’t know if we (VA?) have been making strides in understanding and treating PTSD. I hope so and may you see continued progress toward healing from the trauma.

I keep hoping this will not happen to another generation. Take care
Lisa

According to what the shrinks at the VA have told me, there is no “cure” for PTSD, and you don’t recover from it. All you can really do is medicate it and/or learn various coping techniques to deal with the worst aspects of it; it’s something that you have for the rest of your life. I have absolutely no complaints about the care I’ve gotten at the VA; they’ve been very good to me.

Thanks again.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Pondering the issues… I guess I would adapt OK to living in combat conditions with mixed gender. It would take some adjustment. In recon training, we did engage in full body contact martial arts in our off time. I wouldn’t find it easy to try to strike a woman comrade. I suppose once she tried to kick me in the crotch, I would get over it. But, that is a real issue. Men are physically larger and stronger than women. They can hit each other hard in training. A woman hit with the same force is more likely to be injured.

Training is one thing; actually combat is another. In training, you will allow someone to touch you. In combat, you will not, unless it is to your advantage. It’s very easy for a taller person to keep a shorter person away just from using one’s legs, plus the shorter person’s midrange is right in the target area of the taller person’s legs.

 

[maximus]

Well, as I said before: any woman who wants combat that bad, she can take my place in the next war. I will be perfectly happy to let her go in my place. So long, sweetie—good luck, keep your head down and your weapon dry. Been there, done that, got the PTSD to prove it. You wanna scramble your head the way I got my scrambled, good for you, dear.

Sort of resembles the homosexuals and their fellow travellers who not only abuse the system (courts) for their personal gain (mainstreaming of their specific perversion), they also demand that the culture be drastically altered (marriage) to include their specific perversion, doesn’t it?

Sorry to hear about your PTSD will pray for you. You last paragraph is so spot on. I realize how fortunate I was to serve during the Reagan era. I wonder if they would go so far as to try to force some of these ladies to the front lines. These are trying times.

God Bless and thank you for your service… I realized that you have had to paid dearly for it .

 

[Arizona_Mike]

The following honest assessment by a female Marine was posted on the Hot Air site:

I’m a female veteran. I deployed to Anbar Province, Iraq. When I was active duty, I was 5’6, 130 pounds, and scored nearly perfect on my PFTs. I naturally have a lot more upper body strength than the average woman: not only can I do pull-ups, I can meet the male standard. I would love to have been in the infantry. And I still think it will be an unmitigated disaster to incorporate women into combat roles. I am not interested in risking men’s lives so I can live my selfish dream.

We’re not just talking about watering down the standards to include the politically correct number of women into the unit. This isn’t an issue of “if a woman can meet the male standard, she should be able to go into combat.” The number of women that can meet the male standard will be miniscule–I’d have a decent shot according to my PFTs, but dragging a 190-pound man in full gear for 100 yards would DESTROY me–and that miniscule number that can physically make the grade AND has the desire to go into combat will be facing an impossible situation that will ruin the combat effectiveness of the unit. First, the close quarters of combat units make for a complete lack of privacy and EVERYTHING is exposed, to include intimate details of bodily functions. Second, until we succeed in completely reprogramming every man in the military to treat women just like men, those men are going to protect a woman at the expense of the mission. Third, women have physical limitations that no amount of training or conditioning can overcome. Fourth, until the media in this country is ready to treat a captured/raped/tortured/mutilated female soldier just like a man, women will be targeted by the enemy without fail and without mercy.

I saw the male combat units when I was in Iraq. They go outside the wire for days at a time. They eat, sleep, urinate and defecate in front of each other and often while on the move. There’s no potty break on the side of the road outside the wire. They urinate into bottles and defecate into MRE bags. I would like to hear a suggestion as to how a woman is going to urinate successfully into a bottle while cramped into a humvee wearing full body armor. And she gets to accomplish this feat with the male members of her combat unit twenty inches away. Volunteers to do that job? Do the men really want to see it? Should they be forced to?

Everyone wants to point to the IDF as a model for gender integration in the military. No, the IDF does not put women on the front lines. They ran into the same wall the US is about to smack into: very few women can meet the standards required to serve there. The few integrated units in the IDF suffered three times the casualties of the all-male units because the Israeli men, just like almost every other group of men on the planet, try to protect the women even at the expense of the mission. Political correctness doesn’t trump thousands of years of evolution and societal norms. Do we really WANT to deprogram that instinct from men?

continued…

 

[Arizona_Mike]

continued:

Regarding physical limitations, not only will a tiny fraction of women be able to meet the male standard, the simple fact is that women tend to be shorter than men. I ran into situations when I was deployed where I simply could not reach something. I wasn’t tall enough. I had to ask a man to get it for me. I can’t train myself to be taller. Yes, there are small men…but not so nearly so many as small women. More, a military PFT doesn’t measure the ability to jump. Men, with more muscular legs and bones that carry more muscle mass than any woman can condition herself to carry, can jump higher and farther than women. That’s why we have a men’s standing jump and long jump event in the Olympics separate from women. When you’re going over a wall in Baghdad that’s ten feet high, you have to be able to be able to reach the top of it in full gear and haul yourself over. That’s not strength per se, that’s just height and the muscular explosive power to jump and reach the top. Having to get a boost from one of the men so you can get up and over could get that man killed.

Without pharmaceutical help, women just do not carry the muscle mass men do. That muscle mass is also a shock absorber. Whether it’s the concussion of a grenade going off, an IED, or just a punch in the face, a woman is more likely to go down because she can’t absorb the concussion as well as a man can. And I don’t care how the PC forces try to slice it, in hand-to-hand combat the average man is going to destroy the average woman because the average woman is smaller, period. Muscle equals force in any kind of strike you care to perform. That’s why we don’t let female boxers face male boxers.

Lastly, this country and our military are NOT prepared to see what the enemy will do to female POWs. The Taliban, AQ, insurgents, jihadis, whatever you want to call them, they don’t abide by the Geneva Conventions and treat women worse than livestock. Google Thomas Tucker and Kristian Menchaca if you want to see what they do to our men (and don’t google it unless you have a strong stomach) and then imagine a woman in their hands. How is our 24/7 news cycle going to cover a captured, raped, mutilated woman? After the first one, how are the men in the military going to treat their female comrades? ONE Thomasina Tucker is going to mean the men in the military will move heaven and earth to protect women, never mind what it does to the mission. I present you with Exhibit A: Jessica Lynch. Male lives will be lost trying to protect their female comrades. And the people of the US are NOT, based on the Jessica Lynch episode, prepared to treat a female POW the same way they do a man.

I say again, I would have loved to be in the infantry. I think I could have done it physically, I could’ve met almost all the male standards (jumping aside), and I think I’m mentally tough enough to handle whatever came. But I would never do that to the men. I would never sacrifice the mission for my own desires. And I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if someone died because of me.

• Sentry

hotair.com/archives/2013/01/27/some-advice-on-women-in-combat-from-a-female-veteran/

 

[SamH]

Historically, the U.S. military was one of the best institutions for Black-Americans to work in.

By the time I entered U.S. Marine Corps boot-camp punching and slapping recruits was largely (but not entirely at that time) done away with.

So, no, not all “social experiments” come to a crashing end in the U.S. military.

This is coming from a short, ectomorph, “Black-American,” that made it through Marine boot-camp, MCT, and later its even more daunting School of Infantry. Also, one of those minorities that graduated from community college with honors (GPA in the 3’s) and that’s how he entered university and not through “Affirmative Action.”

In 1900 the military was not segregated and all races served together. That ended when the progressive president Woodrow Wilson segregated the armed forces against the advice of “Black Jack” Pershing. He also segregated the federal work force.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

We don’t murder kids with our drones.

Here is a list of children and teens killed by drone strikes. Now, this only includes Pakistan and Yemen, so this is not an exhaustive list.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Here is a list of children and teens killed by drone strikes. Now, this only includes Pakistan and Yemen, so this is not an exhaustive list.

Yes, and both the legal systems used for war and Catholic morality view killing and murder as two separate items. Now, if you can show me where the US has intentionally targeted a child with a drone strike with the intention of causing that child’s death I’ll change my comment.

 

[LisaA]

Here is a list of children and teens killed by drone strikes. Now, this only includes Pakistan and Yemen, so this is not an exhaustive list.

Note the use by OCG of the word MURDER, not kill, MURDER which has a different meaning. Yes the person is just as dead but the intent makes the act a different moral question. Further we are fighting an enemy that KNOWS of our reluctance to allow civilians to become collateral damage—a trait they DO NOT SHARE. Thus they will deliberately hide among women and children so as to deter strikes.

I don’t know who first said “War is hell” but he was right. There will always be collateral damage and civilians caught in crossfire. Pretending you can fight a war and not kill anyone is sort of liviing in dreamland.

Lisa

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Note the use by OCG of the word MURDER, not kill, MURDER which has a different meaning. Yes the person is just as dead but the intent makes the act a different moral question. Further we are fighting an enemy that KNOWS of our reluctance to allow civilians to become collateral damage—a trait they DO NOT SHARE. Thus they will deliberately hide among women and children so as to deter strikes.

I don’t know who first said “War is hell” but he was right. There will always be collateral damage and civilians caught in crossfire. Pretending you can fight a war and not kill anyone is sort of liviing in dreamland.

Lisa

In American military history it is usually attributed to Sherman.

 

[Wolseley]

I saw the male combat units when I was in Iraq. They go outside the wire for days at a time. They eat, sleep, urinate and defecate in front of each other and often while on the move. There’s no potty break on the side of the road outside the wire. They urinate into bottles and defecate into MRE bags. I would like to hear a suggestion as to how a woman is going to urinate successfully into a bottle while cramped into a humvee wearing full body armor. And she gets to accomplish this feat with the male members of her combat unit twenty inches away. Volunteers to do that job? Do the men really want to see it? Should they be forced to?

She makes a good point. I remember being in a convoy once—a long line of deuce and a halfs that would pull over and stop every couple hours for a “bladder break”; we’d all climb down, stretch, walk around a bit to loosen up our muscles----and walk over to the ditch at the side of the road, unzip and flip and take care of business. Then we’d climb back up into the back of the deuce and a halfs, and away we’d go. The whole thing took maybe ten minutes.

Consider the same scenario with 250 women as opposed to 250 men. They’re going to have to bare themselves from the waist to the knees, squat, attend to business, and then wipe, and have some means of packing the used potty paper out----you can’t just throw it into the ditch. I lack the necessary expertise, ahem, to know how long this might take (not even taking into consideration the question that probably some of those women are going to be in the midst of their monthlies), but I suspect it would take longer than ten minutes.

I imagine the civilian driving along past the convoy during manuevers is going to get quite an eyeful when he comes upon that scene. The men can always turn away and give their back to unexpected spectators; not so the women.