Papal Mass in DC (was it me or was the music crazy?)

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Sure…but Aramaic is a dead language and the once openly accepted Latin became the traditional norm until we allowed liberalism to creep in…adding their “inclusiveness” and “multi-culturalism” and where has it gotten us?

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Aramaic is a dead language that is still used by the Catholic Church. We are just not in the rite that uses it for worship.

For all intents and purposes Latin is also a dead language. Latin has no native speakers and is not changing in grammer and vocabulary, the two requirements for it to be considered a living language.

Both Aramaic and Latin are sacred languages. This is primarily why they to continue to be used. To a lesser extent science and law uses Latin, but the words used are primarily nouns and are used within sentences of other languages.
 
If he did not care for the clapping, he would have done these guesters once without a grin and processed out. After seeing this, I completely understood the ongoing clapping.

Well, good point, and to extend it, once you know that he protested once, by a memo, a serious error in the findings of the holy scripture work group he was attached to during Vatican II (Autobiography), but only once, you understand the failure to in effect rebuke the clappers with faint response, to paraphrase the Bard. Brotherhood is as recurrent a theme as liturgy to B16 and Ratzinger.

And honestly, what else could he have done without making a bit of a scene? The setting was outdoors, after all, that always compromises all the appropriate behaviors we associate with the liturgy. Then, he had just been publically --denied? The vernacular provides dissed. I don’t know what one would call it. His plans to prevent inappropriate music had gone for naught–he sent his MOC ahead, after all, apparently to no avail. Clearly nobody preparing the mass had read what he has written in his life. It may well have been rather a low point, and perhaps he fell back on crowd pleasing as a defense mechanism. As I insinuated in the first paragraph, it would not be the first time. (Others fought back against the subtle and concealed doctrinal problems of Vatican II more than one try, at least.)
 
I am going to post part of an article that seems pertinent to this discussion – it is long, but makes a good point! I have already expressed some of the thoughts in this thread. I will break it in two parts so that it will be accepted.

The Catholic Church in the United States entered this new millennium with some very illicit baggage. Some of these encumberments have made headlines throughout the nation; others, though unpublicized, have had widespread ramifications, such as the music that congregations across the land are asked to sing at Mass each and every weekend.

Shortly after the dismissal of the bishops from Vatican II, parish priests began the process of getting the laity involved in daily decisions. Some wanted women and married men to be ordained to the priesthood, but it was evident that what the laity wanted most was some control over the most important thing in their lives, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Those eager to join the reforms directed by Vatican II were commissioned to be lectors, cantors, advisors, and ministers, replacing time-honored groups such as the Altar and Rosary Society and the Holy Name Club. With those commissions came many abuses that only recently have begun to be addressed. Up until now, however, the final area of abuse, the new age of music at the Mass, commonly has been sacrosanct.

When the office of Music Director replaced that of Choir Director and when the choir came down from its heights to join the congregation, two very peculiar things happened: Catholic liturgical music became ordinary and the music directors became omnipotent. Pastors were immensely relieved when they were lucky enough to find someone with knowledge of music who would, for pay, of course, provide the music for the weekend liturgies. In most cases, pastoral interference, such as more than superficial oversight of the Music Director, was out of the question, both because possibly pastors misunderstood the directives of Vatican II and because they dreaded the loss of the indispensable MD who was almost impossible to replace.

Thus began the disintegration of the tradition that was Catholic liturgical music, a tradition that had produced some of the most beautiful and most prized compositions the world has ever known. Music Directors had a position with duties to fulfill, and they had power. There would be no resting on their laurels and they no longer felt the need to rely on the expected Gregorian chants and the prayerful hymns almost every American Catholic knew by heart. Furthermore, if MD’s were to justify their newly-acquired power, they had to create change, they had to surprise. Now that they were free of the confinements of the choir loft, they would be able also to retire the very symbol of Catholic musical tradition, the powerful and inspirational pipe organ. This musical void was quickly filled with instruments that could join the cantors at the front of the churches – guitars, drums, keyboards, instruments that had recently become standards due to the popularity of secular folk music groups.

Like sheep, Mass-goers, now participants in the liturgy, who had been told they must go along with the alterations of the liturgy that had come from the hierarchy at Vatican II, slowly learned to adjust to the music as well. Young people preferred its entertainment value and appreciated the shock value of the hand-clapping and other machinations that often accompanied it. No longer was Mass the boring ritual they had always known; it was exciting.

When Guitar Masses became the rule and were no longer just an experiment, Music Directors began searching for other sources to relieve their not-to-be-underestimated creativity and further to enhance the excitement. They turned to catalogs of music that would give them an almost unlimited supply of weekly song choices as well as provide the shock that would demand the attention they had become used to: secular songs that could be reworded with references to the sacred, hymns from Catholic traditions theretofore unknown to most Americans, and the already sacred compositions that filled the hymnals of Protestant churches. The latter songs are those that have survived in Catholic parishes over the years since Vatican II; and those sacred songs have been supplemented with contemporary selections written for mass audiences of Gospel music in Evangelical churches and on Worship and Praise radio stations.

Besides the obvious loss of the integrity of the Mass itself, there are several despicable results of this musical trend, primarily the decay of traditional Catholic liturgical music. Secondarily is the loss of musical identity, by which Catholics were able to recognize themselves in what was sung on Sunday at Mass. Due to the distorted and poorly defined power of the Music Director, weekend Mass has become an ecumenical prayer service, written in large part by Martin Luther, the Wesley brothers, ordained ministers, long since deceased, of smaller Protestant denominations, and numerous Evangelical lyricists.
 
The music was a little special yes, but the mass still had all the functional parts needed for a valid liturgy. Jesus was still present, and the Eucharist was shared with more than 50,000 people. I didn’t particularly care for some of the more crazy melodies, but the mass was still the mass.

On another note, would all those here please calm down just a little bit. The holy father will decide for himself what to do, but don’t expect the calypso band at your local sunday service to dissapear anytime soon. Now, that is not to say that the pope won’t do anything. I’m sure he was a little uncomfortable, and kind of waiting to see what was going to happen next, just as i was at home. I am sure he will do something profound to lead the church in the right direction.

I think a lot of people expected the pope to come and finally vindicate this inner anger they have, and justify their rage by “showin em all how it’s done n puttin em (the liberals) in their place”, but i think they are the ones who are reaping the most fruit of all of us. They are learning what true humility is.

People who complain expect others to do the work for them. If you don’t like your local mass, get involved with it. Speak up to your local bishops, so they are aware of the situation. Right now the “liberals” are the ones doing all the talking, so to the bishops it seems that that sort of mass is what the people want.

Don’t expect the pope to do all the work for you and make things nice and rosy. Instead listen to his message because he has prepared it prayerfully and thoughtfully. I am sure if we address what he wants us to the mass will return to something somewhat more reverent.

As JP II said, disrespect for the liturgy of the mass shows a lack of spirituality. Sex scandals show a lack of spirituality. One cancer has to be fixed before the healing can begin.

Sooo, instead of complaining, DO SOMETHING
 
The continuation of the article:

It is undeniable that music properly is a major part of the liturgy. This is extremely significant now that the congregation participates in both spoken and sung segments of the Mass prayer. The commonly accepted use of four songs at strategic
portions of the Mass focuses undue attention on them. The first is sung as the Priest processes to the Altar; but most times Music Directors take this opportunity to let their talents shine forth, and the congregation is asked to sing verse after verse while the priest-celebrant impotently stands beside the Altar awaiting his chance to take part in the celebration. The second song accompanies the taking up of the collection and often serves as background for the Offertory of the Mass, denying to the congregation the beauty and edification of the Offertory prayers themselves, thus defeating in part the reason for having the Mass in the vernacular in the first place. Then comes the Communion song, usually sung with great gusto while communicants are denied the opportunity to give quiet thanks for the inestimable Gift they have just received. This song is sometimes placed during the second collection and beyond, and is just another opportunity for Music Directors to exercise control of the liturgical proceedings. The grandest such opportunity, however, is the Recessional, when the musicians truly excel, as they are able to keep the entire congregation captive long after the priest has departed, singing endless verses until finally set free after voluminous applause to their captors for an excellent job well done.

Another result of the modern trend in Catholic music is that, because the pipe organ has basically become forgotten, few persons are being educated in that art, leaving its glorious potentialities lying mostly untouched. Furthermore, very few Catholic lyricists and composers are producing truly Catholic liturgical music. There is great irony in parishes where the pipe organ remains the primary musical instrument and the church resounds with the music of Luther and Wesley. Such blasphemy insults the memory of those who contributed to the construction of those buildings and the inclusion of the organ believing that they were helping to preserve their Catholic Faith and the traditions generated throughout the centuries. The ghosts of past Choir Directors and of long-dead members of the choirs whose voices were lifted in traditional hymns and chants and Masses can almost be felt to shudder when the Gospel songs of Evangelicals are sent out into the neighborhood on the glorious chimes in the bell tower.

Traditionally, Holy Mother Church calls the Faithful to worship in music while the priest enters the Sanctuary; she puts the Offertory Prayer and the Communion Antiphon to music; and in music she sends the Faithful forth to spread the message taught at the Mass. Because all elements of the Mass are intended to be intertwined, the artificial imposition of four or more unrelated songs, even songs that may happen to be doctrinally inoffensive, is blasphemous. Such songs are likely simple sentimental musings of a Protestant minister who did not like the Catholic Church and who did not believe in the Sacred Mysteries that are taking place at the Catholic Altar. Our Holy Father Pope Benedict XVI, even as Cardinal, has written many times deploring the ugly condition of current trends in the music sung at Catholic liturgies. He has urged us to return to our unsurpassed traditions of Gregorian chant and Latin music, even in Masses spoken in the vernacular.

It is time for the ordinary Catholic layperson to become angry at this last vestige of the excesses of those who misinterpret the directives of Vatican II and to expel those who would continue the blasphemy and torture of our Catholic liturgy. It is time we return to sanity and take back our right to worship at a Mass that is written in its entirety for the sacrificial offering of the Crucified Savior to the Father. Indeed there is a place for ecumenism; the Holy Mass is not that place. There are ways in which the laity may take part in the daily life of the Catholic Church in this country; determining the content of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not one of those ways. Just as the Fathers of the Church would refuse to adopt the written words of Martin Luther for the liturgy, pastors should refuse to permit Music Directors indirectly to adopt those words through music.
 
“As JP II said, disrespect for the liturgy of the mass shows a lack of spirituality. Sex scandals show a lack of spirituality. One cancer has to be fixed before the healing can begin.”

But this is the opposite of Church teaching. The Church says, Lex orandi, lex credendi, As we pray, so do we believe. And thus we act. The liturgy is the orandi and we will be hard pressed to regain spirituality without it. In fact the Church says, by its ancient teaching, it is impossible. That is why the huge reaction to the mass yesterday. It matters! It matters to form priests and laity who will not commit these sins.

I urge everyone to read the article in the postings just above to see why this music we suffered does not serve.
 
Speaking as someone who was in yesterday’s Papal Choir, I am very sorry you did not get out of it what so many others apparently did. I for one was very proud of the music and was deeply and spriritually inspired by it. I wish you could have to.

Peace,
al
 
Hi peace…well see, that’s my whole point…if the Mass was celebrated in the traditional Latin, throughout the world, it would be the same all over and frankly, it would be far more reverant and beautiful. Instead, what we see is that each “culture” makes their own rules and celebrates in their own fashion, losing the original beauty and again, causing confusion!

I should be able to walk into a Mass anywhere in the world at anytime and be able to clearly understand what is going on and what is being said. We should not be exposed to local tradtions…as we are ONE BODY in Christ…not many parts with our own identities and ideas of what the Mass should consist of.

Jesus Christ laid out the Mass in detail for us…I don’t believe we have the right to change it to conform to our modern cultural desires.
Hello there neat62. Peace be with you. I am glad we have this conversation and I absolutely understand. I would like that very much too for all Catholic Church all around the world to use traditional Latin.

Just for info when I was back in my Country everything the same just like over here in term of the way of the procession, Homily etc. The only different is the language used.

All prayers such as Lord Prayer when to say it when to kneel down etc are all the same. This is only my opinion, by gestures and by recognizing the symbol like kneeling down etc I know what is going on though I do not understand the language but I know when to say the response in my own language, example prayer before receive the communion in my own language. I know when it is time to say it I recognize all the respectful gesture if you know what I mean I hope you understand what I am trying to say here so to me whether it is in Latin or not the main subject is still going to be focus on the Body of Christ. The order of prayers are all the same.

As for me by recognizing all the gestures and order of the whole celebration I am able to enjoy and unite with everybody though I do not understand the languages but I do know the prayers that they recite in my own native tongue. I totally block myself from thinking about myself what I am comfortable with so that really help me adapt to the Western Catholic Church. Believe me took me a while to memorized The Lord Prayer in English but I know how to say it now. I still need to work on the Creed. I know how to say it in my native language.

I have never been to full Latin Mass. I would love to experience that.
 
Speaking as someone who was in yesterday’s Papal Choir, I am very sorry you did not get out of it what so many others apparently did. I for one was very proud of the music and was deeply and spriritually inspired by it. I wish you could have to.

Peace,
al
The Papal Choir did a splendid job with the music. The ability to handle all of that dissonance in the Psalm speaks volumes for the choir! I for one would have loved to have had the opportunity to sing with Placido Domingo for the HF.

But as I have pointed out on other threads, when JPII came to New Orleans in 87, we did not jazz up the hymns, use Dixieland brass bands, or have a Cajun fiddler playing a two step during the Offertory. The Haitian singing in French “took the cake” for me. Haitians may be new immigrants to you folks on the East Coast, but they first came here in great numbers in the 1790s. French is still spoken here and no one has yet to attempt to write a Missa “Chank a chank” Cajun dance mass when we have a history of Cajun composers who wrote wonderful motets in French and Latin.

Likewise, there is no need to have sacro-salsa music when both Cuba and Mexico have composers of sacred motets. If you don’t believe me check out Amazon for Esteban Salas - a Cuban and the San Antonio Vocal Arts Ensemble for motets composed in Mexico.

I have no doubt that that Mass was sacred and special to you. I will always remember JPII’s visit to NO but we did not attempt to insert our cultural idioms into the Mass.
 
Speaking as someone who was in yesterday’s Papal Choir, I am very sorry you did not get out of it what so many others apparently did. I for one was very proud of the music and was deeply and spriritually inspired by it. I wish you could have to.

Peace,
al
I heard it on the radio with my family… it was not sacred music. Who selected this music? Poor Holy Father, to have to suffer like that.
 
Again, for me and apparently thousands other it was a very sacred mass. I guess it was not so for all - that is indeed a shame, although probably not a surprise.
 
Speaking as someone who was in yesterday’s Papal Choir, I am very sorry you did not get out of it what so many others apparently did. I for one was very proud of the music and was deeply and spriritually inspired by it. I wish you could have to.

Peace,
al
Al, I want to thank you for your service. HOWEVER I think you ought to listen to these people, and read the sources that have been offered. It’s only prudent of you! Why would so many literate and spiritual people be so upset, if there weren’t something in it that you should make an effort to understand? The fact that many people ‘enjoyed’ mass yesterday is beside the question. Of course they did–they enjoy American Idol and the Simpsons, too. I mean, taste is not very well educated in these days. We have to read the Church’s teachings on liturgical music.

When I returned to the Church after many years, I became a Eucharist Minister, and I thought I served very well. I enjoyed it and I was “doing good.” I had to listen to others to teach me the effect this has on vocations and respect for the Eucharist. If I had continued in this ministry, knowing its effect, I would have sinned.

You are responsible, now. You see that people have reasoned arguments. Even though you love to sing, you have to consider
what is being said here. Do you read the posts that some people are not going to mass because of it? Uprooting their families over it? These are serious consequences.
 
The point of this liturgy was obviously not the Christ in the Eucharist, but the people who were attending. It was a very horizontal affair, rather than vertical. The object of worship here was multiculturalism at least from a planning perspective.

Not only that but the music seemed like a pandering, racialist, and stereotyping offense against the good people of various cultural backgrounds. I am sure some people attending had the proper focus and were even inspired, but let’s be frank … this mass planned from the start to show off multiculturalism.

I believe our Holy Father had no choice but to go through with it, for the sake of all the work it would have taken to plan something else. What you have here is literally thousands of people working months upon months in advance. This music was approved probably a month or so ago and there was no turning back without risk of scandalizing the faithful who were following the direction of a planning committee and were operating in good faith.

I for one am glad nobody has demonized the participants who acted in good faith. The root cause of what happened is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Mass is. For instruction the planners should have consulted any of Card. Joseph Raztinger’s writings on this subject.

From what I understand, what is to come for NYC is quite different… but we shall see.

God bless!**
 
While vestments and decor have begun to catch up, it will take sacred music much longer, because of the horizontal emphasis today.

It’s a catechetical matter, and one that perhaps the Holy Father and Msgr Marini will be paying closer attention to in the months leading up to future events around the world.

Truly, guidelines need to be made in order to avoid even the appearance of “liturgy as entertainment”. I think in time, we will see this.
 
Last night I tuned in at about the same point, but this time on TV rather than radio. The first place that the clapping bothered me on the radio was after Placido sang. On the radio, I was not able to see Placido going up to kiss the Pope’s ring. He was the only singer allowed to do this. My view of the clapping during this time was softened a little.

The other place was at the end of Mass. On the radio, I could not see the Pope with his arms spread wide, him giving the faithful his blessing, his reserved German grin and him repeating this over and over again resulting in ongoing clapping. If he did not care for the clapping, he would have done these guesters once without a grin and processed out. After seeing this, I completely understood the ongoing clapping.
I might be incorrect…but I think the poster who had mentioned the inappropriate clapping was referring to the clapping used as PART of the music at the offertory…the song itself actually HAD clapping IN IT!
 
Again, for me and apparently thousands other it was a very sacred mass. I guess it was not so for all - that is indeed a shame, although probably not a surprise.
The choir did a wonderful job with what it was given to do. The selection of music was NOT the choir’s fault. So please, please don’t take the criticisms personally. You guys were excellent.
 
Speaking as someone who was in yesterday’s Papal Choir, I am very sorry you did not get out of it what so many others apparently did. I for one was very proud of the music and was deeply and spriritually inspired by it. I wish you could have to.

Peace,
al
Aloysiusg,

Why would you be proud of taking part in music that the Holy Father has condemned for the Mass…and that he repeatedly has expressed is insulting and DAMAGING to the Mass?
 
Quite honestly mom of ten, I don’t think my answer would satisfy you, so I will politely refrain from providing, and just say that I will do my best to offer praise to the Lord when given the opportunity.

Peace,
Al
 
The choir did a wonderful job with what it was given to do. The selection of music was NOT the choir’s fault. So please, please don’t take the criticisms personally. You guys were excellent.
I agree with this.🙂
 
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