Parents miss Mass, kids get ax

[Lurch104]

Brad:

Christian charity is exemplified by a pastor who is willing to stand up for the 3rd Commandment and the Church’s consistent teaching that parents are the primary educators of faith. A policy requiring the family to come to mass is a most basic requirement. A family that considers the sacraments not necessary is instilling nothing of value in their child by making them do something they think is worthless.

Yes, but he is punishing the chidren for the sin of the parents. Remember, for a sin to be mortal three elements must be present:
1: The act must be a mortal sin
2: Knowledge that the act is a mortal sin
3: Full consent of the will.

Unless these children are capable of walking to mass, they are not in a state of sin based on premise #3. I agree it is best to have the entire family participate, but take every oppurtunity to reach the young people now before they become too jaded.

 

[Lurch104]

I really hope that all of you who support this action are also putting your money where your mouth is. Why don’t you make a personal effort to reach out to these families and their children. Live up to your baptismal vows. I am willing to listen if anyone has a better idea then just shutting out these families.

 

[Lurch104]

If it is not about the money, I would assume that the pastor will be refunding the $150 the paid for the classes.

 

[misericordie]

OR, since this family were such great members of the parish, why hadn’t they called to let the pastor know about the troubles in their family? This is the stupidest Catholic-bashing story I ever read in my life. Oh. Correction. The Pope is responsible for AIDS in Africa because Catholics can’t use condoms. I guess that’s dumber.

This is why labels as “conservative” anger me as well as “liberal.” It’s either CATHOLIC or not. Catholic teaching calls for Charity, and not for the pastor to be a beligerent idiot, nor a flaming liberal. According to Aquinas, virtue lays at the center of things. Extremes and a priest’s personal agenda, nor a parish member’s personal anti-catholic agenda will work. Yes, and we can either accept the fact that a Bishop can always knock the personal wishes of a diocesan priest in his juristiction, or a religious order priest running a PARISH and with faculties in his juristiction. A pastor may come in thinking he is superman come to save the day, but if he has NOT the total 100% complete backing of his bishop, he can be ordered to stop it! Or to resign etc. If he defies a Bishop, he then risks several things, and would then be in contempt of his vow of obedience to his bishop where then his faculties can be removed, or he could be suspended. It’s a question of who has the more power control here: Bishop or priest?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lurch104:

Yes, but he is punishing the chidren for the sin of the parents. Remember, for a sin to be mortal three elements must be present:
1: The act must be a mortal sin
2: Knowledge that the act is a mortal sin
3: Full consent of the will.

Unless these children are capable of walking to mass, they are not in a state of sin based on premise #3. I agree it is best to have the entire family participate, but take every oppurtunity to reach the young people now before they become too jaded.

No these children are not guilty of any sin but the actions of their parents exclude them from participation in CCD and preparation for First Eucharist.

Can. 914 It is primarily the duty of parents and of those who take their place, as it is the duty of the parish priest, to ensure that children who have reached the use of reason are properly prepared and, having made their sacramental confession, are nourished by this divine food as soon as possible. It is also the duty of the parish priest to see that children who have not reached the use of reason, or whom he has judged to be insufficiently disposed, do not come to holy communion.

CCD is teaching these children what the Church teaches, that one must attend Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day. The parents are teaching their children another thing, that what the Church says is not important and does not matter. They, the parents, are teaching this though their actions. Which speaks louder in the ears of their children? What their CCD teacher tells them? or what their parents show them by their actions?

I really hope that all of you who support this action are also putting your money where your mouth is. Why don’t you make a personal effort to reach out to these families and their children. Live up to your baptismal vows. I am willing to listen if anyone has a better idea then just shutting out these families.

Are you sure this did not happen? I am sure that the priest who did this did not just decide to do it one day with out any warning. I am sure that everyone knew what was coming.

It is time that the Church start to stand for what it teaches. If you claim to be a Catholic then be a Catholic.

 

[Deacon2006]

I am ashamed to hear of such a thing, Pope John Paul I had a very poor upbringing with regards to church attendance and his parents. His mother never went and his father burned their cruxcifix in the stove. Don’t ever stop the children from coming to mass or Sunday school. It is not a proportionate response to a parental relgious laxity.

God Bless

 

[misericordie]

Deacon2006:

I am ashamed to hear of such a thing, Pope John Paul I had a very poor upbringing with regards to church attendance and his parents. His mother never went and his father burned their cruxcifix in the stove. Don’t ever stop the children from coming to mass or Sunday school. It is not a proportionate response to a parental relgious laxity.

God Bless

I agree 100% Why do many have an infatuation with OBLIGATING people to anything? What ever happened to suggestion and free will? Even if all the parents did go: is he sure they WANT to be there? Can Mass be forced down an adults throat? Almost like coercing. I am sure even the present Pope would say people must WANT to serve God, not be forced into it. Don’t get me wrong, now with the LITURGY there is nooooooooooooooooooooooooo compromise!! The rubrics will be followed by me and all the priests serving at my parish (if I were a priest and pastor). Mass is not entertainment or a place where the priests will use it as a feel good forum. I especially dislike when a priest asks in Mass after the announcements but before the final blessing, or even if the final blessing was given: “Who’s anniversary is it”? “Who’s birthday is it?” For God’s sakes then all the applauses. Then: sometimes they even sing: “Happy Birthday”!! Now all this nonsense Must not be tolerated: the mass is not the event of the particular parish: the Mass is UNIVERSAL and belongs to the church: not a religious order, not a parish in a rich or poor area, but a Mass is to be a Mass.
That being already mentioned here by me, I too say the priesthood is not a forum for dictatorship and arrogance.

 

[misericordie]

Lurch104:

I really hope that all of you who support this action are also putting your money where your mouth is. Why don’t you make a personal effort to reach out to these families and their children. Live up to your baptismal vows. I am willing to listen if anyone has a better idea then just shutting out these families.

Yup.

 

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

No these children are not guilty of any sin but the actions of their parents exclude them from participation in CCD and preparation for First Eucharist.

Can. 914 It is primarily the duty of parents and of those who take their place, as it is the duty of the parish priest, to ensure that children who have reached the use of reason are properly prepared and, having made their sacramental confession, are nourished by this divine food as soon as possible. It is also the duty of the parish priest to see that children who have not reached the use of reason, or whom he has judged to be insufficiently disposed, do not come to holy communion.

CCD is teaching these children what the Church teaches, that one must attend Mass every Sunday and every Holy Day. The parents are teaching their children another thing, that what the Church says is not important and does not matter. They, the parents, are teaching this though their actions. Which speaks louder in the ears of their children? What their CCD teacher tells them? or what their parents show them by their actions?

Are you sure this did not happen? I am sure that the priest who did this did not just decide to do it one day with out any warning. I am sure that everyone knew what was coming.

It is time that the Church start to stand for what it teaches. If you claim to be a Catholic then be a Catholic.

This is fine and dandy, but sad to say we are in the American Church here. And well most of these Bishops love to operate apart from Rome. No one has been able here yet to answer how actual diocese where the parish is located will react? All may be fine and dandy in very few parts of the USA where the Bishops are faithful in EVERY Catholic teaching to Rome. However in other diocese they don’t want anything that smells of controversy.

 

[InnocentIII]

misericordie:

I fail to see how it is the children’s fault here though?

I take your point but RE without family backing is pointless. Unless of course the child is taught true Catholic teaching and then they would probably get in trouble for suggesting the family were in a state of mortal sin. If the child is to be catechised without family support then it needs to be done after the child reaches the “age of discretion” not at 6.

misericordie:

But in the Archdiocese where that Pastor is in this case, oh wow!! They will probably order him to resign, or he will get called in to respond to this especially if it is in the news as it is. Now if Cardinal O’Connor was still the archbishop, then the pastors would not be afraid to enforce catholic teachings regardless of what it entails.

Sadly I think you may be right. It has come to such a pass that a priest determined to uphold the itegrity of the Church is in danger of being censured by a bishop more concerned with the opinion of the world.

 

[InnocentIII]

Momofone:

I think that the pastor needs to take into account illnesses and such. This woman, Lisa, had some really valid reasons. She didn’t screw up as far as I can tell. Her father was critically ill and her daughter’s skull was fractured. Believe me, under that kind of stress, I’m sure she felt that God would understand. And maybe it wouldn’t be easy to just find someone to take her child to Mass-she may have just moved there and didn’t know anyone, maybe the people she knew weren’t going to Mass, etc. Now if we are just talking blowing off Mass, that’s a different story.

Yes my heart bleeds for the woman (sorry if that sounds sarcastic but I have had inside dealings with the press and their use of the hard luck story). But according to the priest the children who were excluded only attended mass once a month. Now there are normally 4 weeks in a month and I am sure given that the family were able to get the child to the RE class why could they not get to mass with him. I’m sure at least one family member or even friend could have helped out. Equally I’m sure this was not a spur of the moment decision by the priest (oh look x is not at mass…ban him). Lastly, I think if this woman had been a regular mass goer the priest would have known her and have been quite understanding about her difficulties. As it is I suspect that a) she hasn’t been a regular mass goer for a while and that b) she has only advanced these reasons now because she was told she had to attend mass while her son was being catechised.

I wonder who reported this to the local media … wouldn’t have been this parent by any chance would it. And to what end? To use secular pressure to achieve a religious end? Strange how those who want the Church to stay out of the Public Square want the media and state to be given free rein in the Religious Square.

 

[prophetdaniel]

There must be another way of reminding people to attend Mass regularly. It is difficult if they are not attending Mass to hear the sermon/homily.

As a RE educator I must stress that adults can also learn from children too.

Is it possible the message is to appreciate the once a week opportunity to celebrate Mass as a community together rather than taking it for granted?

 

[mjdonnelly]

misericordie:

Why do many have an infatuation with OBLIGATING people to anything? What ever happened to suggestion and free will?

As a Catholic, you are required to go to mass weekly.

 

[walstan]

I have a much more interesting question:

How come the “Pastor” had to send a letter to the kids parents? If he was the “Pastor” of the community why didn’t he know there was illness in the family? does he not keep up to date with his flock? When he sees people missing or chidren not attending formation classes doesn’t he go round to the house to find out what’s wrong?
I have a feeling he’s lost touch with the relationship between “Pastor” and “Pastoral Care”. I would have thought that good pastoral care would have avoided this situation in the first place, or is that just wishful thinking?

 

[InnocentIII]

walstan:

I have a much more interesting question:

How come the “Pastor” had to send a letter to the kids parents? If he was the “Pastor” of the community why didn’t he know there was illness in the family? does he not keep up to date with his flock? When he sees people missing or chidren not attending formation classes doesn’t he go round to the house to find out what’s wrong?
I have a feeling he’s lost touch with the relationship between “Pastor” and “Pastoral Care”. I would have thought that good pastoral care would have avoided this situation in the first place, or is that just wishful thinking?

Or just possibly this is a furphy designed to make it appear that the priest is uncaring. Equally it does indicate that the family was hardly active in the parish. Before assigning blame to the priest it would be wise I think to remember that the post is coming from an anti-Catholic media. See also Dom Bettinelli

bettnet.dyndns.org/blog/weblog.php

 

[mercygate]

walstan:

I have a much more interesting question:

How come the “Pastor” had to send a letter to the kids parents? If he was the “Pastor” of the community why didn’t he know there was illness in the family? does he not keep up to date with his flock? When he sees people missing or chidren not attending formation classes doesn’t he go round to the house to find out what’s wrong?
I have a feeling he’s lost touch with the relationship between “Pastor” and “Pastoral Care”. I would have thought that good pastoral care would have avoided this situation in the first place, or** is that just wishful thinking**?

The parish probably has more than 1000 families. There are probably at LEAST 3 Masses on a Sunday, and the Pastor would not celebrate all of them, so when people go to the 10:00 o’clock Mass one week, the Saturday Vigil Mass the next, and the noon Mass the week after, how could he know whether they were there or not – except by the absent envelope?

Since 150 families failed to attend Mass even once a month, how could the Pastor be expected to figure out which family had the illness?

As I maintained in an earlier post, if the family were so attached to the parish, they would have contacted the Pastor about the family illnesses, even if only to ask for prayer. If they were so attached to the parish, others in the congregation would have known the situation and perhaps brought it to the Pastor’s attention. If they were so attached to the parish, and still got the notice that the children were being dropped from CCD, they would have telephoned the Pastor and explained the situation, in which case the Pastor surely would have reversed the decision in that case.

 

[mercygate]

mjdonnelly:

As a Catholic, you are required to go to mass weekly.

. . . under penalty of grave sin.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lurch104:

Yes, but he is punishing the chidren for the sin of the parents. Remember, for a sin to be mortal three elements must be present:
1: The act must be a mortal sin
2: Knowledge that the act is a mortal sin
3: Full consent of the will.

Unless these children are capable of walking to mass, they are not in a state of sin based on premise #3. I agree it is best to have the entire family participate, but take every oppurtunity to reach the young people now before they become too jaded.

I thought about this some more last night and I must disagree with you. Even if the child can not walk to Mss on their own they may still be guilty of a mortal sin.

If they have been taught that missing Mass on Sundays and Holidays is a mortal sin and they choose not to go, even if their parents are already not going, then they are guilty.

misericordie:

This is fine and dandy, but sad to say we are in the American Church here. And well most of these Bishops love to operate apart from Rome. No one has been able here yet to answer how actual diocese where the parish is located will react? All may be fine and dandy in very few parts of the USA where the Bishops are faithful in EVERY Catholic teaching to Rome. However in other diocese they don’t want anything that smells of controversy.

With such a high regard you have for the Church here in America and such contempt you show to the bishops and priests in many of your replies here at the forum I am surprised that you would consider a vocation to the priesthood.

 

[fix]

Great priest. These parents are more upset with this good priest, than with their failure to form their children in the faith, not to mention the state of their own souls considering they may not have a serious reason to miss mass. One more sign of the times.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

A good shepherd goes out and find lost sheep.

He doesn’t shoo away marginal ones.

Shame on yet another Church official trying to use a “get tough” approach to teaching love.

This is an abortive, contraceptive mentality. My sheep are not cooperating so I kick them further out.

It is spiritual abortion. We teach this to the kids and our next generation is sure to remember what the Catholics did when the chips were down.

We try to manipulate the parents by threats to their kids, but the parents don’t get it and the kids get hurt. Those with parents who don’t take responsibility to get them have an extra need to learn religion, idiot.

---

I don’t admire a leader who plays power games by withholding Catholic education from children. Let’s not make excuses for him. He should be aghast to have such press that he shoos away children.

I’ve seen this mentality before. Hey, the kids’ parents aren’t raising them Catholic enough so let’s punish them by not educating their sorry brood. Then at the same time they wonder why young people leave the Church and whine, “how can we get young people to stay in Church.” One way is to make them feel welcome when they are young like Christ did, rather than use them as political power pawns for a pathetic priestly practice of punishment.

Alan