Pastor David Jeremiah's sermon on OSAS

[Timothy_Piper]

Thanks for assuming that I have not found it. Thanks for presuming I’ve not gotten on my knees. Nope been there done that. Found Reformed Theology to be lacking, and failing at the bar of Scripture. Your suggestions are the very reason I found that the Church Jesus founded, and promised to remain with until the end of time was the place for me, at His feet. I’ve been working out my salvation in the manner St. Paul spoke of as a Convert to the Catholic Church for 24 years now, in the sure hope of Eternal Life.

Sorry to offend you; certainly not the intention. Your post seem to indicate confusion about salvation based on different precepts of men you have been given. Some say this is the way, others say this is the way, then you ended with “why bother preaching”. I assumed you were confused based on all of that and all you wrote appeared to be from different teachings of men; therefore I only desire to point you to the one source where you will not only find the answer, but not from the teaching of men.

I meant you no harm and apologize to you; I completely misunderstood where you were coming from your post to which I replied.

Editing to add a comment.

I guess if I had taken the time to read the rest of your posts, then I would have had better context of the post I responded to; so I take my lumps, apologize and move on.

 

[Filioque]

Sorry to offend you; certainly not the intention. Your post seem to indicate confusion about salvation based on different precepts of men you have been given. Some say this is the way, others say this is the way, then you ended with “why bother preaching”. I assumed you were confused based on all of that and all you wrote appeared to be from different teachings of men; therefore I only desire to point you to the one source where you will not only find the answer, but not from the teaching of men.

I meant you no harm and apologize to you; I completely misunderstood where you were coming from your post to which I replied.

Editing to add a comment.

I guess if I had taken the time to read the rest of your posts, then I would have had better context of the post I responded to; so I take my lumps, apologize and move on.

Do you hold that the Catholic Church teaches, and leads to something other than salvation?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I think he is nobody special. You simply dont have any pastoral giants in your church to compare him to. Is he an Augustine? An Aquinas? A St Ambrose? St Gregory?
He is nobody and I’d be surprised if you could find 50 people who even know his name during his lifetime. Just imagine how insignificant he will be 20 years after his death, then 100 years later, then 500 years. He is no one important, and the poor quality of the section of writing of the OP reveals his insignificance aptly to those who have read and understand what it means to be truly “solid”. He aint it.

What would overcome you to speak of a faithful Christian in such a negative manner; especially one you do not know?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Amen brother! Dont let these spiritual infants, who fancy themselves “solid” spiritual leaders confuse you. OSAS is the very heresy Paul rejected in Romans (6 I believe). There is a long list of errant, dangerous thinking that OSAS spawns. It all starts with a very narrow understanding of salvation (Salvation is “all God” and it’s a one time event during our mortal lives) and then grows progressively unbiblical through ignoring/explaining away everything (biblical or not) which contradicts that very narrow view. Here is a short list of the falsehoods promoted by OSAS adherents - whether they realize it or not.

• God works good for Christians through their sin, therefore sin is God’s Will and not a concern…
• All my sins have been atoned for, therefore no sin can separate me from God…
• All warnings regarding the eternal consequences of sin are for non-believers (see James 2, Eph 5, Gal 5, 1 Cor 6 etc, etc. for the biblical perspective)
• We will be judged by Christs righteousness alone and our works of the flesh are inconsequential in eternity (See Matt 25 for the biblical perspective)
• Our good deeds only effect our rewards in eternity and not our salvation

Anyone who has a living relationship with Christ knows in the depths of their hearts that God never wills them to sin and that by sinning they are rejecting his Him and rejecting - ie disbelieving - his promise to uphold them in their trials (1 Cor 10:13). God has written this basic truth on our hearts and enlightens us in the place where grace and free will intersect: our conscience. Empty theological speculations presented as spiritual wisdom do nothing to change this fundamental dynamic.

Blessings!

Actually Salvation is a paradox; a lifetime and an event which can be easily demonstrated from Scripture, but not understood by natural persons nor carnal Christians.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

What is the definition of a continual pattern and regular unbroken practice of sin? Is that committing the same sin every day, every week, every month? That is where the definition gets vague for me.

What is the direction of your life? Are you being transformed into the image of Him? Sin will inhibit that and continual sin will cause the Lord to chasten the Christian. If one goes to church on Sunday and M-Sat live like the world, then there is the likelihood they are not a Christian and never accepted the Gift of God. Jesus said “you will know them by their fruits” or lack of them would be the opposite.

Usually when I hear assurance of salvation, I think that person beliefs 100% they are going straight to heaven after they die. However, what if someone commits the same sin after he accepts Christ. How does he know he is not in a continual pattern?

A Christian by definition has passed from the penalty of sin, which is death and unto eternal life. Pride is what prevents a person from accepting this reality.

Romans 8:1-9
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the **Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. **3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Simple question: who are those in Christ Jesus? Christian.

Ro. 4:15-16
But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Here in verse 16 is a comparison to the OT law, where Paul shows that a single sin resulted in condemnation, whereas in the New Covenant through Christ; many sins resulted in justification. It is the very opposite of human thinking & nature. We as humans can’t believe one sin would condemn us because we like to weigh the good verses the bad and in the end if the good outweighs the bad, then how can God not accept us? That is the legalistic and works righteousness theology. Whereas God now says that through faith the completed work of Jesus Christ, the grace of God will cover all of your sins and there will be no condemnation for the Christian.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Hi Tim. No where in the verse does it say that “all” their rewards are lost - perhaps you are reading into it what you expect it to say. Furthermore, it is unclear what the burning is and what, exactly, it refers to. Other sections of Scripture are abundantly clear, yet you choose to hang onto relatively ambiguous theological speculations from verses such as this and ignore clear warnings regarding our behavior and eternal life. Matt 25, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:21, 1 Cor 6:9 etc etc etc “he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
Maybe you can see it now?

This seems quite foolish to me. Being persecuted to the point of death for one’s faith is the ultimate call of a Christian because it emulates most perfectly Christs call to “follow me”. Isnt that exactly what most of the Apostles did?? Are you really gonna claim that they fell into the “worst case scenarion” and experienced “chastisement by God”??? The purpose of the Christian being on earth is to glorify God; if a person has been saved and is not producing fruit as one should, then He will just take you out and bring you home. Look at what happened to Sampson; he would have been happier of the Lord would have just brought him home rather than having his eyes gauged out and made to be like an animal.

Interesting verse you present as an OSAS adherent. My first comment is that it doesnt say he will be saved, as you have assumed. It says so that his spirit MAY be saved. But that is minor compared to the next point.
Paul says that “I have decided” meaning Paul, himself, “have decided to deliver” him “so that” he “may be saved”. That sure sounds like Paul is saying a few things that you reject outright theologically:
First, Paul is saying that he is playing a role in this person’s salvation - its not merely being left up to God
Second, Paul’s statement implies that if he didnt take this action this individual MIGHT NOT BE SAVED. That completely contradicts your theology of the “elect”. If this person is one of the “elect” as you understand the term, Paul would never feel the need to do anything WITH RESPECT TO HIS SALVATION. But he does! He feels its imperative to take action “so that (he) may be saved”. That completely flies in the face of OSAS and much of your theology of salvation and rewards - at least it seems that way to my feeble mind.

Blessings!

Is that your personal interpretation? The context of the passage makes the meaning clear, but your focus on your anti-OSAS is blinding you from the truth. OSAS is all over Scripture, but it does not matter because you have benn taught and believe it is not possible because you and others deny the power of God in salvation in my opinion of course.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Do you hold that the Catholic Church teaches, and leads to something other than salvation?

As you probably know, I am not a Catholic and I do not believe any religion denomination leads anyone to salvation. Only God can lead people to salvation and only God can save; religion never saved anyone that I know of. Do I believe the Catholic Church has pointed people to the way of salvation; yes I do, just like I believe all churches that speak of Christ and the cross can be used by God to lead people to Jesus Christ and salvation. God generally seems to work through individual people to point the way to Jesus.

 

[Holly3278]

Personally, I suspect that a lot of people who hold to OSAS will be finding themselves in a place they didn’t expect after death. I believe that OSAS leads more people to Hell than any other false doctrine.

 

[CentralFLJames]

What is the direction of your life? Are you being transformed into the image of Him?

This is a question a Catholic would ask. Transformation and life-long sanctification (Theosis) is pure Catholicism. You seem to be out of camp with your Protestant brothers since this thread is about OSAS and as every well schooled OSASer knows salvation is a “done deal” at the moment you accept your salvation (ahem, assuming you are really saved AND one of the fortunate elect who won’t ever backslide or get hit by misfortune as a sign of God’s displeasure like Job did ). How is it that you are uttering Catholic concepts of justification and sanctification theology while at the same time seeming to support the “instant fix” of OSAS? Does the OSASer work himself up to bigger and better rewards after that special day that he is saved?

Sin will inhibit that and continual sin will cause the Lord to chasten the Christian. If one goes to church on Sunday and M-Sat live like the world, then there is the likelihood they are not a Christian and never accepted the Gift of God. Jesus said “you will know them by their fruits” or lack of them would be the opposite.

Do you believe that God does not chastise the non-Chrisian who wallows in his sins? Does God not love the non-Christian too and also desire his conversion and salvation? Or does God just chastise “the elect” and we can tell the elect by who is either being very happy and wealthy or by their stripes of suffering chastisement for their sins?

A Christian by definition has passed from the penalty of sin, which is death and unto eternal life. Pride is what prevents a person from accepting this reality.

Some of what you say here is a very Catholic belief. “A Christian” becomes a Christian and dies in Christ at the instant of baptism. At that instant she is free of all sin - both original and any personal sin and holy in God’s eyes. But this person can and often will fall into sin again over their life as they learn to work out their salvation with fear and trembling and will have to repent for every grave sin and either form perfect contrition before God (which is extremely hard and requires supernatural grace) or she will have to form at least imperfect contrition and receive apostolic absolution/forgivness of sins which only an apostolic (Catholic or Orthodox) priest or bishop has divine spiritual authority to loose and bind here on earth (the Catholic sacrament of reconciliation).

Pride is most often what prevents many from accepting the good news that Jesus would give such spiritual-authority to specially appointed, ordained and anointed ecclesial authorities of His Church. Yet it is spelled out in clear text that this is exactly what Jesus did and what The Church has done continuously for 2000 years:

*Matthew 16:19, “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”? *

Simple question: who are those in Christ Jesus? Christian.

I see you gave an answer - was this a rhetorical question?

Question right back to you:
Who was the first Christian? Was it Mary who had Christ IN HER from the instant that Christ came into the world?

Here in verse 16 is a comparison to the OT law, where Paul shows that a single sin resulted in condemnation, whereas in the New Covenant through Christ; many sins resulted in justification. It is the very opposite of human thinking & nature. We as humans can’t believe one sin would condemn us because we like to weigh the good verses the bad and in the end if the good outweighs the bad, then how can God not accept us? That is the legalistic and works righteousness theology. Whereas God now says that through faith the completed work of Jesus Christ, the grace of God will cover all of your sins and there will be no condemnation for the Christian.

This is a tortured interpretation of scripture. Sin did not result in justification. But Catholics will be the first to say “Oh happy fault of Adam that gained us so great a Redeemer!”. I think you were just running away with your zeal here to say it that way. The rest of your comments are pure protestant error that was never taught by the apostles in the way you are trying to recast the apostolic teaching here. You are just speaking a “faith only” (sola fide) theology which is IMMEDIATELY discounted by scripture:

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Here too you are being inconsistent in your justification model. You opened with a very Catholic concept that sounds like life long sanctification and theosis but at the bottom here you show your true colors - an “instant salvation” formula that has us all as “snow covered dung piles” that are rotten and filthy at the core but look pure on the outside. But God is authentic and this sort of thin-veneer theology would never stand the sniff test before the radiant glory of God that would never permit anything less than 100% pure to kneel before His Throne.

Sorry - if you already got your divinity diploma you need to request a refund. If nothing else your theology MUST be consistent top to bottom if you want to peddle it to anyone with more than a high-school education…

James

 

[William1964]

The punishment is really nothing to worry about. It’s just temporal. He would encourage you not to go sinning away, but what is the real consequence if you did? You’re still going to go to heaven.

My brother follows this kind of teaching and he agrees. I asked him one day, “…you mean you can commit adultry etc. and no matter what you do your going to heaven?” He told me there are consequenses but just temporal punshments.

 

[RedBert]

I think if comes down to this:

Are you saved because you carefully considered the pros and cons of being a Christian and decided that next Sunday I will go and say some words and be saved?

Or are saved because the Sovereign God of the Universe , the Creator of Time and Space, decided that you are to be saved?

So if it was all you: then I guess you could loose your salvation, BUT if God had anything to do with it ,

John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

 

[JustaServant]

My brother follows this kind of teaching and he agrees. I asked him one day, “…you mean you can commit adultry etc. and no matter what you do your going to heaven?” He told me there are consequenses but just temporal punshments.

That is precisly the problem. The results I saw while across the Tiber was a dwarfed and superficial spirituallity that does not transend into reality. IOW, they have no true way of dealing with sin. Very few continue in sin because they think they have a free pass. What often happens, and I saw this firsthand, is they fall into despair over sin and question thier chrisitanity. They have no Confessional, so in counselling the preacher just keeps reiterating the OSAS line, which gives no real comfort to the sinner.
But to admit that it gives no comfort might reveal they are not really saved.
It’s a vicious circle.

 

[RedBert]

Personally, I suspect that a lot of people who hold to OSAS will be finding themselves in a place they didn’t expect after death. I believe that OSAS leads more people to Hell than any other false doctrine.

and I suspect the people who think they EARNED their way into heaven will be suprised: I think the false doctrine of WORKS (Self) based salvation leads more to Hell than any other doctrine

Mathew 7:
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Psalm 51
16 You **do not **delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you **do not **take pleasure in burnt offerings.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.

 

[Philthy]

What would overcome you to speak of a faithful Christian in such a negative manner; especially one you do not know?

The truth.

 

[Philthy]

The purpose of the Christian being on earth is to glorify God; if a person has been saved and is not producing fruit as one should, then He will just take you out and bring you home. Look at what happened to Sampson; he would have been happier of the Lord would have just brought him home rather than having his eyes gauged out and made to be like an animal.

 

[Randy_Carson]

What is the direction of your life? Are you being transformed into the image of Him? Sin will inhibit that and continual sin will cause the Lord to chasten the Christian. If one goes to church on Sunday and M-Sat live like the world, then there is the likelihood they are not a Christian and never accepted the Gift of God.

Isn’t this one of the biggest objections to OSAS?

These folks are living like the world M-Sat, but they THINK they’re a lock to enter heaven.

We’re not talking about what is objectively true; we’re concerned about what they subjectively live and believe.

Since OSAS gives them FALSE assurance of their salvation, these souls will very likely be lost. They are lost because the false man-made doctrine of OSAS gives them comfort when they should be examining their consciences and working out their salvation in fear and trembling.

Now, even those who are not living wildly during the week HAVE NO ASSURANCE that they will not fall away at some point; their time of testing is still in the future. They can’t see the future, and although God knows what they will choose, He gives them free will to do as they please.

So, Timothy, you may be doing just fine at the moment, but a pretty girl may catch your eye down the road and you may abandon all for her.

Those in your own congregation will then say, “He was never really one of us.”

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Personally, I suspect that a lot of people who hold to OSAS will be finding themselves in a place they didn’t expect after death. I believe that OSAS leads more people to Hell than any other false doctrine.

First, I believe any Christian that doesn’t believe in OSAS will find out they were wrong when they get to Heaven, but will not care. I believe religion leads people on the wide path marked Heaven. Anyone who is in Hell, chose to be there because of several reason, the primary being Pride and self righteousness.

The point you made about those “Easy Believism false Gospel”, which is prevalent in out culture will certainly allow for a lot of self-deceived people with a false sense of security on the wide path marked Heaven; goes along with what I meant by religion leading people on the wide path.

OSAS is the power of God in Salvation; but the security of knowing is a blessing only for those that are mature in Christ.

 

[RedBert]

Isn’t this one of the biggest objections to OSAS?

Since OSAS gives them FALSE assurance of their salvation, these souls will very likely be lost. They are lost because the false man-made doctrine of OSAS gives them comfort when they should be examining their consciences and working out their salvation in fear and trembling.

I see it as the opposite:
Because they are “good” people, who go to church every Sunday, throw a couple of bucks in the collection plate, help decorate for Christmas they think they are “in”.
They are lost because of the false man made doctrine of WORKS.
Works out of obligation , works out of pride, works out of that’s what “good people” do.
Instead of works out of love for Christ, the Savior of my soul

Many will come to Lord on that day and say “ Lord did we not have perfect attendance , did we not bring a casserole, did we not join a church committee?” And Jesus will give the same answer “I never knew you, away from me you evildoer”

 

[Timothy_Piper]

John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

You are either Christian, in the hands of Jesus or you are not Christian. The question and real issue is are you a Christian. Did you desire to follow Him, completely give up All of your desires for His desires, are you picking up your cross every day for His glory, and are you following His lead?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

That is precisly the problem. The results I saw while across the Tiber was a dwarfed and superficial spirituallity that does not transend into reality. IOW, they have no true way of dealing with sin. Very few continue in sin because they think they have a free pass. What often happens, and I saw this firsthand, is they fall into despair over sin and question thier chrisitanity. They have no Confessional, so in counselling the preacher just keeps reiterating the OSAS line, which gives no real comfort to the sinner.
But to admit that it gives no comfort might reveal they are not really saved.
It’s a vicious circle.

Do you see the error concerning the sin issue? It is the very reason why most people either do not find the narrow gate and/or find it, but are unable to enter by it. The sin issue is dealt with, not after you are saved, but rather you will not be saved until you have dealt with the issue of sin before God prior to being saved.