Pastor David Jeremiah's sermon on OSAS

[Timothy_Piper]

Rightlydivide,
It is a fine thing when people understand and experience forgiveness and shed their worldly lifestyles. And some do experience this in the Protestant/Evangelical churches but it is far from unique to them. People have these conversion experiences within the Catholic Church as well. To the point where they are willing to give up the worldly life completely and live as Priests, nuns or consecrated brothers.

But just because you have had a conversion experience doesn’t mean you are destined for heaven. You’ve only taken the first step in the journey toward God, and unfortunately, many are led to believe that they are home and they stop striving for holiness. this is a great tragedy. To get to heaven, you must persevere in your path to holiness. You must cooperate with the graces given you

Paul, there is a large chasm between the two. Consider the life of the nun or the priest, we are told to live the opposite of these secluded lives, which is part of the reason you will not find either office, station or position, what ever you would chose to describe it, in the Bible.

The “conversion experience” you described, is not an experience; it is a reality of a regenerated and totally transformed life from the prior person one use to be, what they once were and never to be like ever again thanks be to Jesus the Christ.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Nick-

I wonder if pastor’s say things like that to take the edge off of their pure OSAS stance. IOW, they know how their views sound to others, so they throw in some talk about behaving properly and not sinning and all that, but if pressed, I can’t help but wonder if OSAS and TULIP people won’t ultimately say that it really doesn’t matter what you do or don’t do because your salvation is ETCHED IN STONE.

Rather than wondering what you think the Pastor thinks, why take a little of your own advise to others and find out. It is not too difficult to Google the pastor and find sermons he preaches. If you go to “lightsource”, then you can actually see it for yourself and find the archives and pick from one that interest you.

 

[Philthy]

---

Sound logic does not combines the apples and oranges, then claim one proved their point and then call someone basically misguided & being like a blind guide…so be it; thank you for the blessings and may God give you the eyes of spiritual discernment.

None of this addresses the shortcomings of your argument - your prayer for discernment has been answered - thank you.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

None of this addresses the shortcomings of your argument - your prayer for discernment has been answered - thank you.

Your authority, as well as others that are like-minded with the same credentials, are clearly and unarguably established as “I’m right, you are wrong, therefore I’m right”. amen

 

[CentralFLJames]

Paul, there is a large chasm between the two. Consider the life of the nun or the priest, we are told to live the opposite of these secluded lives, which is part of the reason you will not find either office, station or position, what ever you …

So you have returned to the rigours of worn polemics, “personal opinions as divine revelation” and whole cloth fabrications again? Please consider that you don’t know the bible nor your history well enough to be making such sweeping generalizations.

Not all priest and nuns, friars and monks are cloistered but rather are and were instrumental in evangelizing, teaching and civilizing the common peasant who could not read or write. If not for the early Friars who went city to city to preach and teach and become much loved by the communities they visited most of Europe would still be barbaric pagans. Please get your facts and your history straight.
.
Also refresh your recollection of key players in the bible - i.e. John The Baptist & Elijah who were the models of monastic life.

• John 1:23 “…I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”
• The apostle Paul spoke of the merits of remaining consecrated to the Lord as a chaste unmarried or consecrated widow/widower.
• Historically many early Christians moved to the desert to draw closer to God, following the example of Christ, when he fasted for 40 days in the wilderness of Judea. Later many Christians would also do so to escape the persecutions of the Roman Empire.
• Monasticism can trace itself back to the lifestyles of Elijah (Carmelite spirituality takes inspiration from this and has produced some of the most profoundly holy and reverences saints and doctors of the Church).
• Our Lord’s example of a life wholly dedicated to God, prayer and scripture study, teaching, preaching (including spiritual disciplines like fasting and Scripture memorization) is certainly biblical.
• Contrary to your assertions there is NO concept of “lay person” in the Early Church - the word “laikos” (which means “laity”) is NOT in the NT. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is and still is a priestly people consisting of the ministerial priesthood and the universal priesthood. Catholics are all partakers of the universal priesthood and are called to fast, pray, teach and live by example in whatever station of Life GOD has called them to be in. God calls some to monastic life and others to participate as living examples of virtue and Christian living in the secular life. Catholics have been given the apostolic mission to spread the Good News to all peoples by teaching and by example. This calling does not preclude a monastic lifestyle since the apostles were very much a close knit group among themselves.
• In the Books of I and II Kings we hear of the “schools of the prophets” which were for young men attempting to study God’s Word and live their lives in emulation of the prophets. Modern terms with some equivalency might be “Bible Colleges,” “Seminaries,” or even “Monasteries.”
• The first recorded historical account of monastic life that survives to this day is in seen in the second century church. Paul of Thebes / Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage (250 A.D.) retreats to the dessert to escape persecution (not unlike what The Holy Family did to escape from King Herod’s persecution; and not unlike what the Jews did to escape Pharaoh by fleeing into the dessert to be reforged into God’s Holy People).
• It can be said that the original 12 apostles are a living example of a monastic order who lived and prayed within their own brotherhood while traveling and teaching with Jesus.

Unless you can successfully rebuke these points your silence proves that your comments are without basis in fact.

James

 

[RedBert]

Hello RightlyDivide & ALL OTHERS READ:

Fresh air and bless you

I am going out on a limb here since I do not know you, but based on that pin-point accuracy on the above statement; I am assuming you believe OSAS and that ONLY because of faithfulness and obedience, that God has blessed you with the assurance of your salvation, which I believe only comes to those who are truly being faithful and obedient. Not based on the false gospel of “Easy Believism”.

I will also climb the limb and say you believe in Election, but, if like me, had difficulty at first in accepting it, but once you could not get past that indeed it is all over the Bible, then you embraced it and it had the total opposite effect on your love, gratitude and motivation to share the love of God as the human perspective presumes, which the skeptics that embrace “why should we preach” or “why then even pray”. In other words, it opened your eyes still further in the understanding of Hos love for you, strengthened your desire to share Him with other, and reached a higher level of gratitude for your salvation and that of others and in addition made you more aware of just what Jesus actually and really did for you.

Correct me if I am wrong on any of this and add comment as you please for all to see and hopefully understand.

Very close to where Redbert’s walk is leading him.

 

[brb2]

Why not sleep with that girl—all my future sins are covered!

]

Christ taught no Adulterer will inherit the Kingdom. Was he only referring to the unsaved Adulterer ? Some Protestants that interpret scripture as Dr. David J. …seem to teach so.

However, I’m encountering more Protestants in recent years … who don’t accept OSAS as fully supported by scripture.

 

[brb2]

As a former adherent to OSAS (as a Protestant), I would say that the biggest thing that convinced me was that this is not true is that it simply was not a belief of the early Church. Two things in tandem changed my thinking I think; the first eye opener was the claim of someone on a website that this teaching did not come about until Calvin. Well, when I started reading Eusebius’ History of the Church and the ECF’s I realised that this was not a belief of the earlier Christians.

Some in the early Church took things to the extreme. Postponing their Baptisms to their final days. One might argue this strongly argues against OSAS in the early Church … but, we know this was not Christ’s intentions for believers.

On the otherhand, the Early Church also Baptized infants and young children. Clearly this makes the more since … when examined from what Christ taught. So, this argues strongly for ‘childhood’ OSAS … at least until one has reached age when they can commit Apostasy.

 

[brb2]

I will end by saying that here we have a young man who had “the seal of the Lord”, who later, in my opinion, had lost his salvation, but then was fortunately restored.

To me, if this story is true and accurate, this does not sound like a St. John who believes in eternal security.

St. John knew the truth … if anyone ever did. Doesn’t scripture teach the Angels in Heaven rejoice when a Prodigal Son/Gal is restored to faith by grace of Christ ?

Christ is always busy seeking out the lost sheep … as a Good Shephard always will.

Any Prodigal Son/Daughter brought back from the brink of hell … knows we are never beyond satan’s temptations, and never beyond Christ’s restoration.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The Biblcal response is found in Psalm 51:

Repentance is a heart issue.

I don’t know what you mean by “heart issue.” I’m referring to Pastor Jeremiah’s sermon titled “Casting Out Fear.” One of the fears he was trying to eliminate from his audience was to not be afraid of sinning. Now it is good to teach the flock to not be scrupulous. It is another thing to teach them that their post-born again sins can ever harm their salvation or cause their soul any damage. That’s what I got out of Pastor Jeremiah. He said to tell God you’re sorry if you sin, but doing so doesn’t affect your “position” with God one way or the other. What do you think about the matter? Is the Pastor right?

 

[brb2]

So drop the “Can’t” word since noting is impossible for God and the scriptures back it. If God can implant the Divine Seed in The Virgin and bring Himself directly and physically into the human experience then the tiniest seed’s of faith can be made to grow in even the most obstinate hearts when the temporal consequence of their sins bring them to their knees in humility. This is what anathema and excommunication is really all about - removing those openly sinful and unrepentant from the good graces of The Church and its Holy Sacraments so that the person might repent after suffering the whithering effects of sin.

CFJ … always our modern day Athanasius.

 

[brb2]

There is ONLY one instance where a person who believes in OSAS can observe with certainty a person’s salvation but its NEVER in himself and only in OTHERS. That is when the OTHER person is an infant or under the age of reason child and lacks the rational facilities to sin against God from free assent. But that ONE example of a saved soul immediately vanishes in a vapor of smoke as soon as the child grows up and forms a consenting conscience and the ability to listen and reject or obey his inner conscience. ALL Christians would AGREE on the point that an baptised infant or child dieing for whatever reason before the age of reason will go to heaven.

:yup:

 

[brb2]

Listen to me, the very moment we believe the judgement for our sins became a thing of the past. We will not ever be judged for our sins if we’re Christians.

That’s where all unbelievers will be. You don’t have anything to worry about if you’re a Christian. You say what about the sins I committed after I got saved? Well let me ask you a question, how many of your sins did you commit after Jesus died for you? How many? All of your sins were future when Jesus died. Did He forgive just certain ones of them up to a point? No He forgave them all. He paid the penalty for all your sin. You say well what about when I sinned as a Christian? That’s a relationship issue. You need to go to your Father and say Father I’m sorry and get things right with Him, but it doesn’t have anything to do with your position before God. You are saved and you will never see judgment.

I]

Let him come on CAF and debate the Catholics on OSAS topic.

 

[Philthy]

Your authority, as well as others that are like-minded with the same credentials, are clearly and unarguably established as “I’m right, you are wrong, therefore I’m right”. amen

None of this addresses the shortcomings of your argument - your prayer for discernment has been answered - thank you.

Blessings!

 

[RedBert]

I don’t know what you mean by “heart issue.” I’m referring to Pastor Jeremiah’s sermon titled “Casting Out Fear.” One of the fears he was trying to eliminate from his audience was to not be afraid of sinning. Now it is good to teach the flock to not be scrupulous. It is another thing to teach them that their post-born again sins can ever harm their salvation or cause their soul any damage. That’s what I got out of Pastor Jeremiah. He said to tell God you’re sorry if you sin, but doing so doesn’t affect your “position” with God one way or the other. What do you think about the matter? Is the Pastor right?

Let’s be real clear with this:
From the Sermon on the Mount: lusting in heart in the same as adultery on God’s eyes
Also hating is the same as murder in God’s eyes.
In James ; the Bible says, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”
Is King David the adulterer forgiven?
Is Saul of Taurus the murder forgiven?

by God’s standard, Yes I am an adulterer
by God’s standard ,Yes I am an murderer
by God’s standard, Yes I guilty of breaking all of the commandments

When a Protestant says believer , we do NOT mean believe like the demons, not believe like Judas and not believe like “many” in Matthew 7:22.
What we DO mean is when someone’s ** heart has been changed **by the Holy Spirit: Christ is in the believer AND the believer is in Christ. The old is dead and the believer is a new creature.

I don’t see how the new creature dies and then old is back , and then the new is back again and then the old is back again: so please explain how many times can someone lose their salvation and then reclaim it? 5 times, ten times: If I am 70 years old can I be re-saved 50 times?

Is it like this year I decided lease a Ford and next time I decided lease a Chevy and then next lease I go with Ford again?

I think if comes down to this:
Are you saved because you carefully considered the pros and cons of being a Christian and decided that next Sunday I will go and say some words and be saved?

Or are saved because the Sovereign God of the Universe , the Creator of Time and Space, decided that you are to be saved?

So if it was all you: then I guess you could lose your salvation, BUT if God had anything to do with it ,
John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

Yes I agree with what the Pastor said;
And it is true that** I do NOT live in ANY FEAR whatsoever of sinning, because I believe God’s promises of salvation.**
and out of LOVE for Christ, I strive to do what is pleasing to him, because that is what my CHANGED** heart **desires.

 

[Rightlydivide]

I have no problem with you sharing your experiences, and I largely agree with everything you said!
I would point out one small, area of disagreement though. The “Catholic” that you speak of who “has relied on his own works, ritual, and empty prayers” isn’t really a Catholic in the true sense of the word, is he? Certainly the Catholic Church doesnt teach that people who rely on works, ritual and empty prayer are saved. So what you are speaking of is a misinformed, uneducated, largely sinful, unsaved individual who mistakenly identifies himself as Catholic.
In my opinion, I do not see educated, fervent, practicing Catholics converting to Protestantism - it is almost always uneducated, lapsed, non-practicing Catholics who are “ripe picking” for Protestant communities. Virtually all of the practicing Protestant apologists that I know - who might qualify as “powerful witnesses” - are not converts from Catholicism. It is those educated, fervent, practicing Protestants who convert to Catholicism who contribute to the “powerful witnesses” for Catholicism. So there is definitely a disconnect there: many fervent Protestants - pastors and seminary trained folks - have converted to the Catholic Church while those who leave the Church for Protestantism are largely non-practicing, uninformed, lapsed Catholics.

Blessings!

In a sense you just argued that they are not true Catholics, similiar to the arugment from some OSAS proponents who would say they are not real Christians. Both sides, as you stated, would be largely ignorant of the more nuanced details of theology.
As far as your last statement, I have nothing to say to that. I assume it is anecdotal and your experience. I do not know a lot of converts and as such I do not have anything to really add!

 

[Philthy]

In a sense you just argued that they are not true Catholics, similiar to the arugment from some OSAS proponents who would say they are not real Christians.

Correct! But Catholics theology teaches that the choices we make in life have an impact on our salvation and OSAS adherents don’t! Can you not see the hypocrisy in claiming that sin no longer separates the saved from God, but sin indicates that this person “really wasnt saved to begin with?”

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Very close to where Redbert’s walk is leading him.

Amen brother - obedience is the key and too keep that zeal for God in thought, word and deed.

 

[Philthy]

I don’t see how the new creature dies and then old is back , and then the new is back again and then the old is back again: so please explain how many times can someone lose their salvation and then reclaim it? 5 times, ten times: If I am 70 years old can I be re-saved 50 times?

Sure, why not? For God all things are possible

I think if comes down to this:
Are you saved because you carefully considered the pros and cons of being a Christian and decided that next Sunday I will go and say some words and be saved?

Or are saved because the Sovereign God of the Universe , the Creator of Time and Space, decided that you are to be saved?

It is actually both - God has to will that “all men be saved” and then we have to meet the conditions of repentance, baptism, faith and love that God, in his Sovereignty has willed as the path of “following Him” to Heaven. God did not simply “decide” who is saved and who is not. If you truly believed that he did, you wouldnt be on this forum because nothing you have to say would be of any consequence. Actions speak louder than words!

Yes I agree with what the Pastor said;
And it is true that** I do NOT live in ANY FEAR whatsoever of sinning, because I believe God’s promises of salvation.**
and out of LOVE for Christ, I strive to do what is pleasing to him, because that is what my CHANGED** heart **desires.

Well that is a wonderful grace! That does not mean that all of the body have a similar experience. I still struggle with temptation and sin. Do you really think the Pastor no longer sins? That would be a necessary conclusion…no?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Correct! But Catholics theology teaches that the choices we make in life have an impact on our salvation and OSAS adherents don’t! Can you not see the hypocrisy in claiming that sin no longer separates the saved from God, but sin indicates that this person “really wasnt saved to begin with?”

I have not used the phrase. I have not heard the phrase used. I cannot recall it being used at CARM or the Baptist Board either.
It involves so much presumption that I cannot defend that kind of statement. I attended a seminary and graduated recently. Granted, the seminary is not exactly my views on many things but I never heard the phrase used there either. Obviously people use the phrase or this discussion would be moot.
Fundamentalist teach a great deal on the choices we make and the impact. The Bible contains a great deal about this topic. I would almost say the entire letter to Rome is applicable. What are you basing your understanding on? Have you dealt extensively with people who use this phrase?