Paul Ryan Discussion

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JoeBowen7 said:
It is time to get over the thought that we are locked in and that there are only two parties and we don’t have any other choice. We are bouncing back and forth between Democrat and Republican and the result is that the country is going down the drain both economically and morally. It is time to look at a third party, such as the Constitution party.
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Who do you want choosing the next two or three supreme court justices, Romney/Ryan or Obama/Biden?

Ishii
 
DeSanto said:
You’re right. it his character I am concerned with. he seems very shady and like a puppet of a higher power. who is that higher power he is beholden to is my true concern.
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Conspiracy theory much?

One can make the same claim about Obama. George Soros anyone?
 
LisaA said:
How funny. Do you know the faith of every school teacher you or your children had? If they were not practicing Catholics I am surprised you agreed to listen to their lessons. Do you know the faith of every candiate you voted for? I bet you don’t. I think if you look in the Bible you will not find any support to shun those of a different faith in matters that are not related to faith. Voting for a candidate is not “following a false prophet.” Neither candidate is vying to be your Parish Priest.

You are incredibly prejudiced against Mormons and I suspect you have little knowledge of them and of their faith. I lived in Salt Lake City for three years and two of my aunts converted to Mormonism so I have a lot of up close and personal encounters with them. I thnk their beliefs with regard to Scripture,the Trinity (or lack thereof) are just plain nutty. OTOH one is as one does. I would venture to say there is not a more Christian life than lived by Mormons with respect to their love of neighbor, devotion to family, responsibility, kindness, and work ethic. I LOVE Mormons. Don’t believe the Gold Plates story and think Brigham Young was a randy old goat. But I’d put a Mormon in any place of responsbility without a second thought.

Wow I rarely see anyone admit to their biases in this way. Lucky for you that you don’t have the same opinion of Muslims. THat wouldn’t be safe.

Lisa
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Notice how some people who claim not to be bigoted are some of the most bigoted people out there?
 
LisaA said:
Meltzerboy, you did not respond to my post which specified that opposition to abortion is NOT strictly a religious viewpoint. I often see what I consider a canard (and frankly beneath someone like you who has the intelligence to provide a cogent argument) in "I don’t want to force my religious beliefs upon others.

Neither do I. I don’t expect other people to go to Mass, confession or believe in the Real Presence. I would love for everyone to embrace the Catholic faith because it has added so much to my life. OTOH I understand that regligious beliefs are very personal, very much part of who we are in our hearts as well as our minds. I have tremendous respect for other faith traditions and without seeming to pander, I hold Judaism above all faiths except Catholicism because of is scholarship, its wisdom, and because of the way practicing Jews live their lives.

The killing of innocent human beings is against the law and has been in cultures of varying religions. The ONLY reason abortion is allowed is that unborn human people are not considered human by some. Thus I see the whole question as a human rights issue as well as a religious issue. I am not against other people stealing or assaulting others because of my faith, but because these are inherently wrong. Just as killing the innocent and helpless whether they are unborn, unconscious, or unloved.

Would you please read and address my earlier post? I think you are arguing against a conclusion that was not at issue.

Lisa
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Lisa, I understand that opposition to abortion is not strictly a religious viewpoint. But so what? I still don’t want to argue my own moral values with others in an area in which I recognize there are rational arguments on all sides of the issue. Besides, it seems to me it is mainly religious pro-life advocates, rather than non-religious ones, that are so vocal about expressing their beliefs; but even if this is not the case, my point still stands. Finally, as I stated previously, Orthodox Judaism has a different view compared to Catholicism regarding abortion and the human status of the unborn child in the womb compared to that of the child after birth and that of the mother. Judaism also differs to a degree from Catholicism on the issue of contraception. I therefore view the matter not only as a private family affair but as a religious-rights issue.
 
meltzerboy said:
Lisa, I understand that opposition to abortion is not strictly a religious viewpoint. But so what? I still don’t want to argue my own moral values with others in an area in which I recognize there are rational arguments on all sides of the issue. Besides, it seems to me it is mainly religious pro-life advocates, rather than non-religious ones, that are so vocal about expressing their beliefs; but even if this is not the case, my point still stands. Finally, as I stated previously, Orthodox Judaism has a different view compared to Catholicism regarding abortion and the human status of the unborn child in the womb compared to that of the child after birth and that of the mother. Judaism also differs to a degree from Catholicism on the issue of contraception. I therefore view the matter not only as a private family affair but as a religious-rights issue.
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Meltzerboy, gotta pin you down here. Please tell me what rational argument exists for abortion? There are none unless you truly believe that one’s humanity exists only AFTER emerging from the birth canal.

Religious views are not over-riding here although admittedly it is religious organizations that have been at the forefront of the Sanctity of Life movement.

Is domestic abuse or child abuse a “private family affair?”
Is child sexual molestation within a family a “private family affair?”
Would you allow the mother to have complete and total control over the life of her children AFTER their birth? IOW do you think Andrea Yates was justified in drowning her children and was this a “private family affair.”

Take religion out of it Meltzerboy. I became Catholic long AFTER I became a believer in the Sanctity of Human Life. I was raised a bleeding heart liberal, advocate of civil rights, advocate of women’s rights by completely secular parents and it was through an understanding of the science of fetal development and through a desire to be consistent in my moral stance I concluded that unwarrented killing of unborn (usually for convenience not for life of the mother) babies was as hideous as slavery, the haloucast, and lynchings.

I see you as someone who is more thoughtful than those who either pull out “it’s a private matter” or “it’s a blob of tissue not a baby” or “it’s part of the woman’s body and she can do as she pleases” baloney answers. Am I right or not?

Lisa
 
LisaA said:
Meltzerboy, gotta pin you down here. Please tell me what rational argument exists for abortion? There are none unless you truly believe that one’s humanity exists only AFTER emerging from the birth canal.

Religious views are not over-riding here although admittedly it is religious organizations that have been at the forefront of the Sanctity of Life movement.

Is domestic abuse or child abuse a “private family affair?”
Is child sexual molestation within a family a “private family affair?”
Would you allow the mother to have complete and total control over the life of her children AFTER their birth? IOW do you think Andrea Yates was justified in drowning her children and was this a “private family affair.”

Take religion out of it Meltzerboy. I became Catholic long AFTER I became a believer in the Sanctity of Human Life. I was raised a bleeding heart liberal, advocate of civil rights, advocate of women’s rights by completely secular parents and it was through an understanding of the science of fetal development and through a desire to be consistent in my moral stance I concluded that unwarrented killing of unborn (usually for convenience not for life of the mother) babies was as hideous as slavery, the haloucast, and lynchings.

I see you as someone who is more thoughtful than those who either pull out “it’s a private matter” or “it’s a blob of tissue not a baby” or “it’s part of the woman’s body and she can do as she pleases” baloney answers. Am I right or not?

Lisa
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This is why I always regret getting into a discussion of abortion, especially on a Catholic Forum! It’s just such an impassioned issue. It’s also only tangentially related to a discussion on Paul Ryan. So I will respectfully decline to pursue this conversation, not because I don’t have the means, but because it is futile and cannot lead to anything positive. All I can say is I’m happy you have done your own soul-searching and reached the moral conclusions that you have.
 
meltzerboy said:
This is why I always regret getting into a discussion of abortion, especially on a Catholic Forum! It’s just such an impassioned issue. It’s also only tangentially related to a discussion on Paul Ryan. So I will respectfully decline to pursue this conversation, not because I don’t have the means, but because it is futile and cannot lead to anything positive. All I can say is I’m happy you have done your own soul-searching and reached the moral conclusions that you have.
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Only if you choose this path. You have no support for your position. I’ve been here before with others. When people run out of ammunition they withdraw.

I still think you are better than this Meltzerboy and I hope as a Jew, you engage in your faith’s incredible wisdom tradition.

Lisa
 
meltzerboy said:
This is why I always regret getting into a discussion of abortion, especially on a Catholic Forum! It’s just such an impassioned issue. It’s also only tangentially related to a discussion on Paul Ryan. So I will respectfully decline to pursue this conversation, not because I don’t have the means, but because it is futile and cannot lead to anything positive. All I can say is I’m happy you have done your own soul-searching and reached the moral conclusions that you have.
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Cay you tell us a single argument supporting abortion that does not equally apply to a one month old child?
 
LisaA said:
Only if you choose this path. You have no support for your position. I’ve been here before with others. When people run out of ammunition they withdraw.

I still think you are better than this Meltzerboy and I hope as a Jew, you engage in your faith’s incredible wisdom tradition.

Lisa
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Only younger people believe that when one has no support for their view, they withdraw. With age and wisdom, one comes to realize that often it is better for all parties involved if one discontinues a discussion.
 
meltzerboy said:
Let’s have a swap: Obama will release his complete college transcripts and Romney will release five years of his tax returns. Now, where’s that phone number to the Oval Office?
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I would do that in a heartbeat.
 
EmperorNapoleon said:
If I were to show you a picture of someone who may have been sitting in the same room as you nearly 30 years ago would you remember who they are or having ever even noticed them? Besides, his roommates remember him and there were articles written by him published in the school paper.

Frankly, because the reasoning behind it is stupid and he has more important things to do than address a conspiracy theory about whether or not he was in a classroom in 1983.
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All he has to do is release his transcripts. He’s spent millions avoiding doing so.

Why?
 
meltzerboy said:
This is why I always regret getting into a discussion of abortion, especially on a Catholic Forum! It’s just such an impassioned issue. It’s also only tangentially related to a discussion on Paul Ryan. So I will respectfully decline to pursue this conversation, not because I don’t have the means, but because it is futile and cannot lead to anything positive. All I can say is I’m happy you have done your own soul-searching and reached the moral conclusions that you have.
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But it isn’t just a matter of religion or even of a prolife position arrived at in a secular manner. It’s also the Obama attitude toward religion. He tried to establish that the state has the right to determine who Lutheran ministers are or are not, never mind what the Lutheran church thinks about it. He is now imposing the purchase of contraceptives, abortifacients and sterilizations on Catholic institutions.

How would Jews feel if he banned circumcisions or kosher food preparation?

There is not the slightest reason to believe Ryan or Romney would do such things, and every reason to think they would not.
 
ComputerGeek25 said:
Conspiracy theory much?

One can make the same claim about Obama. George Soros anyone?
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I have stated repeatedly my stance on Obama. My focus is on RR. Because I have chosen not to support Romney, please don’t just assume I favor Obama. Thank you.
 
DeSanto said:
I have stated repeatedly my stance on Obama. My focus is on RR. Because I have chosen not to support Romney, please don’t just assume I favor Obama. Thank you.
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As many have pointed out to you and other ‘fence sitters’ that unless you have a truly compelling reason not to vote for RR (your dislike of Mormonism doesn’t cut it IMO) then by either not voting or voting 3rd party you are in effect handing Obama a free vote.

You are inadvertently helping Obama with your refusal to consider that no Bishop or Cardinal has proclaimed Catholics can vote for RR without believing they are complying with evil. Voting for Obama would be voting for evil to continue and a Catholic cannot vote for him if they are a believing, practicing Catholic.

You have a viable alternative to Obama.

Lisa
 
meltzerboy said:
Only younger people believe that when one has no support for their view, they withdraw. With age and wisdom, one comes to realize that often it is better for all parties involved if one discontinues a discussion.
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Well I am flattered if you infer I am young but I’m over 55 and this isn’t my first rodeo. You do not want to respond to my questions or continue because you as a rational thinking man are unable to provide a rational and thoughtful reason to support abortion. Ideology is a straightjacket and I think this is one of the major reasons for Obama’s failure as President. He continues to do and say things that have proven to be destructive to this country and its people. Yet he cannot step away from his ideology anymore than you can step away from yours. There may be no rational for Obama’s decisions or anyone’s support for abortion but reason doesn’t matter when it’s ideology controlling your life.

I tried very hard to disassociate a protection of life philosophy as NOT being a religiously based position any more than being opposed to theft, assault, or rape is a religious position. One can look at unprovoked and unwarrented violence toward any human being as simply wrong without depending on a religious based argument. Certainly there are millions of people in this country who have no religious affiliation who can see such violence as wrong.

It’s not a religious issue Melzerboy, it’s an issue of basic human rights. It’s what this country was founded upon.

Lisa
 
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