Person Vs Nature

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AT

Thanks for creating the most fundamental thread there can be. This is the very issue I see with the hypostatic union - there is no human person of Christ. Hence, there can be no man Christ Jesus - the only mediator between man and God.

You are obviously identifying that there are fundamental distinctions being made by those that adhere to the theories that reference nature vs. person and the can of worms they open. I reject this distinction seeing that a person and a nature necessarily coexist/cohere and are not fundamentally distinct. I believe there is some Biblical reference nature - but I don’t believe it was ever intended to cut out the related person.

Best,
Aner
 
@At

Some form of the below question seems to be the crux of the issue -

Could that which was conceived in Mary exist/function independently without being assumed by the Logos/2nd Person - just like any man can and does??

If we deny that that which was conceived in Mary can exist/function independently from the 2nd Person, my assertion is that we are denying that Jesus was a man - since ALL men exist/function independently of being assumed by the 2nd Person.

Aner
 
@At

Some form of the below question seems to be the crux of the issue -

Could that which was conceived in Mary exist/function independently without being assumed by the Logos/2nd Person - just like any man can and does??

If we deny that that which was conceived in Mary can exist/function independently from the 2nd Person, my assertion is that we are denying that Jesus was a man - since ALL men exist/function independently of being assumed by the 2nd Person.

Aner
Not sure if I understand.

Jesus has two natures - divine and human. Because He has a human nature, Jesus is a “man”. But because He has a divine nature, He is also God.

Whereas Jesus has two “natures”, He is one “Person” - a Divine Person, not a human person.
 
Not ALL men. Jesus is a man and He cannot exist independently of the 2nd Person.
Levinas, et. al.

I am sorry I did not see your response to my post a few months back - I will make sure to check the correct em notification to follow up if you choose to respond.

Reality is simple - a human nature itself is NOT a “man”. As you acknowledge - a human nature cannot function independent of a person. However, a man can ALWAYS function independently (as you and I can attest). Therefore, simply having a human nature does NOT make Jesus a man. NO man has a divine person enabling him to function independently - only a human person. Therefore, the very essence of being a “man” necessarily requires human person. Therefore, since scripture is absolutely and repeatedly clear that Jesus IS a “man” (especially in contrast to God (1Tim2:5), we know that He was/is a human person. Otherwise all these words are meaningless and scripture, especially Heb 2:11 in which Jesus (the person) calls us men “brothers” because we have all come from, i.e. created by, the same Source - God Himself.

The bottom line is that Scripture repeatedly and clearly calls Jesus a man - and does so in a VERY personal manner. Based on scripture alone, no one for a minute think that Jesus “maness” was any different than your or my maness (hanks be to God - for we now have a real mediator!!). So while you can in words simply deny the reality that ALL men are human persons and, thus, that human personess is fundamental to being a man - you are choosing to reject clear scriptural, existential and rational reality. I am uncomfortable when my thinking is so opposed to clear reality.

The truth of course is that we NEVER see in scripture this artificial dichotomy between nature and person (though since it exists in ideational form, it was a GREAT OP). Why people would want to create an artificial conception such as this is beyond me. Why not stick to the simply obvious meaning of the words and the simply obvious meaning of their contexts that we find in scripture. All of scripture beautifully coheres if we do - none of scripture makes sense if we depart from the plain sense of the words (the most fundamental rule of standard hermeneutics works if we do - utter nonsensical chaos results if we don’t).

Sincerely

Aner
 
The truth of course is that we NEVER see in scripture this artificial dichotomy between nature and person (though since it exists in ideational form, it was a GREAT OP). Why people would want to create an artificial conception such as this is beyond me. Why not stick to the simply obvious meaning of the words and the simply obvious meaning of their contexts that we find in scripture. All of scripture beautifully coheres if we do - none of scripture makes sense if we depart from the plain sense of the words (the most fundamental rule of standard hermeneutics works if we do - utter nonsensical chaos results if we don’t).

Sincerely

Aner
The ‘artificial’ dichotomy was created to support both the hypostatic union as well as the Trinity. Here reason stops and faith takes over. If you don’t accept the Hypostatic union and the Trinity, then you have rejected two core beliefs of the Church and in all probability are in heretical territory.
I hope you won’t say that “this teaching is too hard” and walk away.
 
The ‘artificial’ dichotomy was created to support both the hypostatic union as well as the Trinity. Here reason stops and faith takes over. If you don’t accept the Hypostatic union and the Trinity, then you have rejected two core beliefs of the Church and in all probability are in heretical territory.
I hope you won’t say that “this teaching is too hard” and walk away.
A -

Thanks so much for the kind response.

I am troubled why we would need to create an man-made, completely artificial, purely ideational construct that is entirely devoid of reflecting any essential or scriptural reality that we are familiar with? Such a man-made construct would seem to much more likely reflect the world of heretical teaching than plain scriptural statements.

To clarify, this is not a faith or reason issue - it is a clear-cut scriptural statement issue. The notion of faith v reason is a false dichotomy that is not only not compelling but betrays a confusion about these two fundamental faculties that God has given us. Faith very much includes the function of reasoning. Scripture demonstrates this reality time and again, e.g. that “your faith is based not in the wisdom of men’s words but in the power of God” (demonstrated miracles is a pretty good reason to have faith in God…!!).

The HP teaching is not hard at all - it simply rejects, at its core, the plain and repeated statements of scripture. Jesus Christ was a genuine man just like you and I. To deny this is to deny a genuine mediator - and, ultimately, the only Lord and Master who bought us (not a good position before God…:-().

BTW - I am curious whether you identified any meaningful answer to your wonderful OP? My minimal perusal did not come up with anything that meaningfully approached answering your question. I have not looked long enough but would sure love to see some clear discussion regarding your great inquiry.

Sincerely,
In Christ,

Aner
 
A -

The HP teaching is not hard at all - it simply rejects, at its core, the plain and repeated statements of scripture. Jesus Christ was a genuine man just like you and I. To deny this is to deny a genuine mediator - and, ultimately, the only Lord and Master who bought us (not a good position before God…:-().
OK, let’s go with your argument for a minute and say that Jesus was a human person. If so, where does the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity, fit in? Or are you saying that He kind of overshadowed /cloaked the human person of Jesus? This would amount to saying that Jesus was 2-persons in 2-natures, viz. a human person with a human nature and simultaneously a divine Person with a divine nature.
BTW - I am curious whether you identified any meaningful answer to your wonderful OP? My minimal perusal did not come up with anything that meaningfully approached answering your question. I have not looked long enough but would sure love to see some clear discussion regarding your great inquiry.
I stopped enquiring, because I realised that if I found the answer to my OP, I would have “cracked” or solved the mystery of the Trinity, and that is something I know shouldn’t be attempted, because it is beyond human understanding at least in this life!
 
OK, let’s go with your argument for a minute and say that Jesus was a human person. If so, where does the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity, fit in? Or are you saying that He kind of overshadowed /cloaked the human person of Jesus? This would amount to saying that Jesus was 2-persons in 2-natures, viz. a human person with a human nature and simultaneously a divine Person with a divine nature.

I stopped enquiring, because I realised that if I found the answer to my OP, I would have “cracked” or solved the mystery of the Trinity, and that is something I know shouldn’t be attempted, because it is beyond human understanding at least in this life!
A-

First, perhaps most important, I appreciate that you have a genuine understanding of this subject and the fundamental issue that results from the HP construct. Very few people - including pastors - can grasp the significance of denying the human person of Jesus Christ (of course there are many disciples who clearly understand the matter).

Second, the logos is NEVER identified as the 2nd person of the trinity. You and I both know that there is not a single text in scripture that even remotely implies or hints at such a construct. This is simply another artifical, man-made construct and a grave and damaging misconception.

To aid in understanding the Biblical concept of the logos, please review Ps33:6 for a Biblically based description, example and understand of the logos. One can add further such texts but that is a very complete text capturing the Hebraic understanding and use of logos with respect to God and His creation.

What Jesus represented - and this is MOST sublime - is that reality of the logos as a man. God spoke - and the man Christ Jesus was the expression. Seeing this picture gives me goose bumps every time as the ultimate summa connection between deity and humanity - between the supernatural and the natural. Jesus is the full expression of God - God’s word made flesh - how utterly sublime!!

Aner
 
When we say that the Second Person holds two natures, viz. one divine and one human, we are making a distinction between the person and his nature. Again, when we say that the 3-divine persons hold one undivided nature, we are making the same distinction. So the question is, what distinguishes the person from his nature, or, what is there in the “person” that is not there in the “nature” and vice versa?
If I may add, in the Trinity the difference is the source of the Persons and their mutual relationships. And we have Christ’s own words to indicate that there are three Persons. He told us, " I and the Father are one…" Again, before ascending to heaven he told the Apostles he would send them the Advocate who would teach them all things. Again, after ascending into heaven, the Angels told them to go back to Jerusalem and await the coming of the Holy Spirit. Finally, at Christ’s baptism we see all three Persons. Yet we know that all three Persons possess the same nature, all three are equally God.

And it is true that in Christ there is one Person but two natures.

These are the teachings of the Church by solemn Decree and must be absolutely adhered to.

God Bless
Linus2nd
 
If I may add, in the Trinity the difference is the source of the Persons and their mutual relationships. And we have Christ’s own words to indicate that there are three Persons. He told us, " I and the Father are one…" Again, before ascending to heaven he told the Apostles he would send them the Advocate who would teach them all things. Again, after ascending into heaven, the Angels told them to go back to Jerusalem and await the coming of the Holy Spirit. Finally, at Christ’s baptism we see all three Persons. Yet we know that all three Persons possess the same nature, all three are equally God.

And it is true that in Christ there is one Person but two natures.

These are the teachings of the Church by solemn Decree and must be absolutely adhered to.

God Bless
Linus2nd
Linus -

With all due respect, this does not answer the question posed by the OP.

Further, Jn10:30 needs to be understood in light of scripture - not human understanding. I recommend a reading of Jn17:20ff in the Greek to correctly understand Jn10:30.

Best,

Aner.
 
Linus -

With all due respect, this does not answer the question posed by the OP.

Further, Jn10:30 needs to be understood in light of scripture - not human understanding. I recommend a reading of Jn17:20ff in the Greek to correctly understand Jn10:30.

Best,

Aner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linusthe2nd
If I may add, in the Trinity the difference is the source of the Persons and their mutual relationships. And we have Christ’s own words to indicate that there are three Persons. He told us, " I and the Father are one…" Again, before ascending to heaven he told the Apostles he would send them the Advocate who would teach them all things. Again, after ascending into heaven, the Angels told them to go back to Jerusalem and await the coming of the Holy Spirit. Finally, at Christ’s baptism we see all three Persons. Yet we know that all three Persons possess the same nature, all three are equally God.

And it is true that in Christ there is one Person but two natures.

These are the teachings of the Church by solemn Decree and must be absolutely adhered to. "

I think I have given him the scriptual sources and also the understanding of the traditional teaching of the Church. The Chruch has traditionally held that she is guided by the Holy Spirit to correctly interpret Sacred Tradition from which the Scriptures have been written. So Catholics rely more on the Tradition of Magisterial teaching than it does on the bare word of Scripture.

Jn 10:30 is interpreted by the Church to mean that the Father and the Son are of one and the same substance or nature but differing in persons. ( Sorry I don’t know Greek - and don’t need to).

Jn 17:20ff is not related to the topic.

God Bless
Linus2nd
 
When we say that the Second Person holds two natures, viz. one divine and one human, we are making a distinction between the person and his nature. Again, when we say that the 3-divine persons hold one undivided nature, we are making the same distinction. So the question is, what distinguishes the person from his nature, or, what is there in the “person” that is not there in the “nature” and vice versa?
Now let me offer a purely philosophical explanation. The following is from the thread " The Three, " on this page and is post #66 by Imelahn and I think it is excellent.

" Well, I have an answer, but it involves some subtle metaphysics. (My source for this is Summa Theologiae Ia q. 28.)

Just for review, Aristotle observed that the realities we observe and deal with each day are what he calls substances: beings with an independent existence, like trees, fish, stones, and men. These substances have various characteristics—their color, size, shape, and so on—which he calls accidents. (I assume that most of my readers know that, but just so we are clear: for Aristotle, the accidents are, so to speak, only second-class citizens. There is no such thing as “redness” in the abstract, only red apples, and red roses, and so on. They don’t exactly “exist,” tout court, but only “exist in something else.”)

I think Aristotle’s analysis of reality (assumed by Thomas Aquinas)—which resolves beings into “substance” and “accident” like that—is fundamentally sound, and can be useful for answering this question.

The distinction between substance and accident (I think it is clear that the apple is not the same as its redness) is evidence of a metaphysical composition: even the most seemingly simple realities turn out to have a kind of internal “division.” Substance-and-accident is the easiest one for us to grasp, but there are others (notably matter-and-form, essence-and-being), which it is not necessary to get into here.

What concerns us here is a particular “genus” of accident that Aristotle calls the “pros ti,” the “towards which.” Substances are frequently observed to have a certain reference to another substance: for example, the earth to the moon, a father to a son, and even (although they are not technically substances) the right hand to the left hand. We usually call that reference “relation.”

“Relation” is an interesting category. For all other genera of accidents, we understand what they are by comparing them to the substance in which they inhere. (Color, for example, is a quality of a substance; size is a property of a substance, and so on.) Relation, however, is different, because we understand what it is by comparing one thing to something else. (We compare a father to his son, and vice versa; the moon with the earth; and so on.) The very notion of relation contains comparison with something else.

Therefore, in a creature, relation can be considered in two ways: inasmuch as it is a characteristic that “inheres” in a substance, or else according to its notion, which entails a comparison with something else.

When we talk about God, however, we must always keep in mind that He is very different from His creatures, while at the same time being the source of all perfections in those creatures. Hence, when we see a perfection in a creature, we must recognize God as its source. He must, therefore, also possess that perfection, but in a much more eminent way than in His creatures. (We are assuming that the perfection in question is not intrinsically tied to some kind of potential principle; for example, size is tied to matter, and so it cannot be attributed to God.)

Take goodness, for example. Many beings are good to different degrees, especially some human beings we know. That goodness must come from God as its source; therefore God must be good. But God isn’t just “good,” not “good” in the human or creaturely sense; if He is the source of all goodness, it would be better to say that He is Goodness Itself.

One of these perfections is unity. As has been mentioned already in this thread, God must be utterly simple, because there is nothing prior to Him with which He could be “composed.” So all those kinds of composition I mentioned—essence-and-being, matter-and-form, substance-and-accident—are to be excluded entirely from God.

Now, the ability to make relations is indeed a perfection that could be attributed to God. Such a relation could not, however, be an “accident” that inheres in God, because that would imply a composition in God. Just as in God, the Essence is the same as His Being, his Relations are the same as his Substance. In God, the very relations are subsistent.

But, as we saw, the very notion of relation entails a comparison with something else. Now, God cannot (properly speaking) have a “relation” with one of HIs creatures (because that would imply that one of His creatures is “prior” to Him in some way). But there is nothing stopping one (subsistent) Relation from being related to another (subsistent) Relation. And inasmuch as they are relative to each other, they are really distinct.

In summary: the Divine Persons are actually identical to the Relations themselves. Since relations in God can’t be accidents, but have to be identical to His very Substance, it is therefore possible for the Persons to be related to each other (hence really distinct), but still be identical to the Divine Essence. "

God Bless
Linus2nd
 
Quote:

Jn 10:30 is interpreted by the Church to mean that the Father and the Son are of one and the same substance or nature but differing in persons. ( Sorry I don’t know Greek - and don’t need to).

Jn 17:20ff is not related to the topic.
Linus

Thanks for the follow-up.

Actually if you simply read Jn17:21 in the English, you will see that Jesus clearly exegetes His statement in Jn10:30. You will see that Jesus does not believe that Jn10:30 means He is the same substance but rather the focus is purpose/connection or something similar. Jesus does NOT believe that we have the same essence any more than He believes that He has the same essence as the Father as clearly demonstrated in this passage. The Greek simply makes the obvious even more clear since the wording is identical.

Best,
Aner
 
Linus

As to your following post - this seems to move in the direction of “the wisdom of mens’ words rather than the power of God”. Why are the complexity? Scripture never compels us to move into Aristotelian philosophy.

Best,

Aner
 
A-
… the logos is NEVER identified as the 2nd person of the trinity. You and I both know that there is not a single text in scripture that even remotely implies or hints at such a construct. This is simply another artifical, man-made construct and a grave and damaging misconception.
How about this:In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. John 1:1
To aid in understanding the Biblical concept of the logos, please review Ps33:6 for a Biblically based description, example and understand of the logos. One can add further such texts but that is a very complete text capturing the Hebraic understanding and use of logos with respect to God and His creation.
I think if you read Ps 33:6 in the background of John 1:3 “Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him”, you’d get a better perspective of what Ps 33:6 is saying.
 
How about this:In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. John 1:1

I think if you read Ps 33:6 in the background of John 1:3 “Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him”, you’d get a better perspective of what Ps 33:6 is saying.
A -

Thanks for the follow-up.

In Jn1:1 there is no discussion re: the 2nd person of the trinity.

Why would read Ps33:6 in the background of Jn1:3? Logically Jn1:3 should be read in the background of Ps33:6 (unless I am missing your point).

BTW - the translation “him” in Jn1:1 - 3 is inaccurate - properly the translation should be “it” since it relates to the impersonal logos (as identified in Ps33:6 and many other instances in the OT).

Best,

Aner
 
Linus

Thanks for the follow-up.

Actually if you simply read Jn17:21 in the English, you will see that Jesus clearly exegetes His statement in Jn10:30. You will see that Jesus does not believe that Jn10:30 means He is the same substance but rather the focus is purpose/connection or something similar. Jesus does NOT believe that we have the same essence any more than He believes that He has the same essence as the Father as clearly demonstrated in this passage. The Greek simply makes the obvious even more clear since the wording is identical.

Best,
Aner
I disagree, 17-21 is not a nuanced explanation of 10:30. The Church has given the correct meaning. It is also supported by St. John Chrysostom comments on this passage, " if their power is the same substance…the Father is in him and he is in the Father…" Further more in 10:31 we read, " The Jews then took up stones, to stone him. " Now they did that because Jesus was saying that he and the Father were one and the same God.

Pax
Linus2nd
 
Linus

Thanks for the follow-up.

Actually if you simply read Jn17:21 in the English, you will see that Jesus clearly exegetes His statement in Jn10:30. You will see that Jesus does not believe that Jn10:30 means He is the same substance but rather the focus is purpose/connection or something similar. Jesus does NOT believe that we have the same essence any more than He believes that He has the same essence as the Father as clearly demonstrated in this passage. The Greek simply makes the obvious even more clear since the wording is identical.

Best,
Aner
I disagree, 17-21 is not a nuanced explanation of 10:30. The Church has given the correct meaning. It is also supported by St. John Chrysostom comments on this passage, " if their power is the same substance…the Father is in him and he is in the Father…" Further more in 10:31 we read, " The Jews then took up stones, to stone him. " Now they did that because Jesus was saying that he and the Father were one and the same God.

Pax
Linus2nd
 
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