Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[Corki]

Women were deaconesses in the early Church.

Yes, however a deaconess was not a woman deacon. They were different roles.

Women are not deaconesses in the Church of today.

True. Deaconesses are not needed in the Church today (and haven’t been for many centuries) since there are not the same cultural restrictions on men and women being together.

I know that you and many others say that opportunities for women in the RCC today have opened up.

Yes, that is true. There are many roles for women that were not ever available in the early Church, not even for deaconesses. For example, Directors of Religious Education, Theology Professors, leaders of ministry, administrators of parishes, members of pontifical commissions.

My comment is that this is not satisfactory for many Catholic feminist theologians who are asking not only for ordination of women as deaconesses, but they are asking for ordination to the priesthood.

They can ask all they want but the Church cannot fulfill those requests.

 

[Corki]

I don’t know what the original “doctrine” says on the reasons why, in the past, only boys were altar boys.
But I see that in 1994 or so, **Pope John Paul II **himself clarified in the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts, that it was okay to let girls serve at the altar.
The Pope, I’m guessing, saw an unfairness and wanted to make it right.
THE POPE.
Yes, each bishop or parish priest has the option of not adapting to the new regime. I assume that’s because the pope knew some people are stubborn and like to stick to old ways and have trouble opening their minds to new ideas, even if they are better ones.

Ok, it’s one thing if you aren’t familiar with older documents but you should at least try to familiarize yourself with the newer ones.

JPII did not allow girls into altar service to make right something he saw as wrong. If that was the case, he would have made a blanket change to allow both girls and boys. That’s not what he did. He left it up to the Bishops and priests to decide what is best for their dioceses/parishes. The most recent document states that the tradition of having boys serve at the altar is a good one that should be encouraged. It then adds that, in some circumstance, girls may also be permitted.

The “new regime” as you call it is to leave it up to the Bishops and priests to decide what is best in light of their preferences and circumstances. It’s not those in favor of all boys that are not adapting to the new regime, it’s those who want to remove the perogative from those to whom it has been given.

 

[rlg94086]

Ok, it’s one thing if you aren’t familiar with older documents but you should at least try to familiarize yourself with** the newer ones.**

JPII did not allow girls into altar service to make right something he saw as wrong. If that was the case, he would have made a blanket change to allow both girls and boys. That’s not what he did. He left it up to the Bishops and priests to decide what is best for their dioceses/parishes. The most recent document states that the tradition of having boys serve at the altar is a good one that should be encouraged. It then adds that, in some circumstance, girls may also be permitted.

The “new regime” as you call it is to leave it up to the Bishops and priests to decide what is best in light of their preferences and circumstances. It’s not those in favor of all boys that are not adapting to the new regime, it’s those who want to remove the perogative from those to whom it has been given.

They’ve been posted in the thread more than once.

 

[Corki]

They’ve been posted in the thread more than once.

And yet some people never seem to click on the links.

 

[louis91766]

I dare say…there would be NO NEED for any extreme actions from women in the CHURCH category if it weren’t for the fact that so many antiquated rules still do not give women/girls proper opportunity to be involved in areas where they are able.

So if there are radical feminist churches or groups popping up…it’s a reaction, a response, from women who are crying out for help, saying they are desperate for more involvement in their faith, and they are trying to find ways to find them or make them by themselves, because no one is listening to them.

I have been trying to say that some women feel that way, but my opinions on it have been rejected.

 

[Corki]

So if there are radical feminist churches or groups popping up…it’s a reaction, a response, from women who are crying out for help, saying they are desperate for more involvement in their faith, and they are trying to find ways to find them or make them by themselves, because no one is listening to them.

This is an interesting point. Why are these women so desparate? What is wrong with the oportunities available to 99% of all Catholics - men and women? Why is being “just Catholic” without a special title or job so hard that it results in a “cry for help”?

No one is oppressing women in the Church. No one is diminishing them in value, dignity or honor. Why then are some women so desperate (your word) for recognition that they are willing to break away from the Church over it?

 

[rlg94086]

Because of reasons like what what one poster described.
Imagine a young girl excited to be an altar server, loving to be involved in her faith that way. Imagine the priest, ten minutes before the service, saying they will no longer have girls as altar servers and not giving an explanation and the girl bursting out into tears.

This would be a formative moment for a girl within her faith. Knowing this opportunity had been given, but the priest at her own church snatches it away (again, he still doesn’t explain why he thinks it will/might/does discourage the boys) is a small example of making one feel oppressed. And this is where it starts.

As noted, she’s a cloistered nun now. That same priest had a strong impact on her spirituality. The end of her altar service was not the end of her opportunity.

 

[Corki]

Because of reasons like what what one poster described.
Imagine a young girl excited to be an altar server, loving to be involved in her faith that way. Imagine the priest, ten minutes before the service, saying they will no longer have girls as altar servers and not giving an explanation and the girl bursting out into tears.

If you read the OP’s link, you would see that this isn’t about telling a girl 10 minutes before Mass that she can’t serve. Nor is it about not giving an explanation. The diocese gave notice and an explanation.

But perhaps many of the men out there might not be able to understand this if you have not experienced it as a woman has.

As a woman, I think I can understand.

You yourself might not want to be a priest or a deacon or an altar server or a cardinal.

Of course I don’t want to be a priest, a deacon or an altar server. My vocation is to be a wife and mother.

But maybe some young girl does,

This speaks to poor faith formation. A girl brought up with good catechesis would know that ordination is not a valid vocation for a woman.

But I supposed…you will tell me…those feelings, then, would be “wrong” or “incorrect” feelings? And they should be changed or ignored

I would not tell you that your feelings are “wrong”, they are your feelings. If you feel oppressed, you need to get to the root of it. There is nothing the Church is doing to oppress you. And women are certainly not ignored in the Church - exactly the opposite. But if those feelings are based on some idea that women should be “allowed” to be ordained, then you might find some peace by trying to understand Church teaching instead of railing against it.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I have been trying to say that some women feel that way, but my opinions on it have been rejected.

Because I’m confused by what you consider to be a “feminist”. In some other posts and this one you say we all have ignored the rule (which no longer exists) to wear headcoverings to Mass. You also say we ignore scripture. First of all…I’ll leave the formal scripture interpretation to the Church. And you say we are to remain silent…

So yes…in that light I might be what you consider a feminist…I also see nothing wrong with altar girls but do recognize that the Church has allowed each individual priest to decide…I don’t agree with it…but that’s the way it is…so yes…I even defend it when it gets me in trouble. I also see nothing wrong with woman being readers, ushers, in the choir or EMHC’s (which I am one).

But I don’t agree with woman deacons or priests. Not going to happen and I’m not going to argue for them…

 

[louis91766]

Because I’m confused by what you consider to be a “feminist”. In some other posts and this one you say we all have ignored the rule (which no longer exists) to wear headcoverings to Mass. You also say we ignore scripture. First of all…I’ll leave the formal scripture interpretation to the Church. And you say we are to remain silent…

So yes…in that light I might be what you consider a feminist…I also see nothing wrong with altar girls but do recognize that the Church has allowed each individual priest to decide…I don’t agree with it…but that’s the way it is…so yes…I even defend it when it gets me in trouble. I also see nothing wrong with woman being readers, ushers, in the choir or EMHC’s (which I am one).

But I don’t agree with woman deacons or priests. Not going to happen and I’m not going to argue for them…

OK
I mentioned St. Paul’s Epistle to indicate how things have changed since Vatican II.
God bless.

 

[rlg94086]

I also see nothing wrong with woman being readers, ushers, in the choir or EMHC’s (which I am one).

But I don’t agree with woman deacons or priests. Not going to happen and I’m not going to argue for them…

That said, I would prefer there was no need for EMHCs, but that isn’t a gender thing.

 

[Tsuwano]

In my opinion only boys to be allowed to serve in Altar… We can allow girls for readings and to help nuns in decorating Altar, Help them in convents .So that it will be a training for them to know the life’s of Nuns.

I hope you realize that the ministry of nuns and sisters in the Church consists of more than what you mentioned above and is most certainly not limited to decorating the altar.

 

[Brendan]

I hope you realize that the ministry of nuns and sisters in the Church consists of more than what you mentioned above and is most certainly not limited to decorating the altar.

That is true.

To prepare and encourage girls to investigate a religious life one can look at the general charisms of the religious orders

1. Contemplative - girls should investigage spending significant amounts of time in Adoration
2. Mendicant - girls should look at working with the poor, perhaps at a local soup kitchen
3. Teaching - Volunteer as an assistant to a parish catechist.
4. Health care - spend time with the sick, or elderly

But since no female religious calling involves serving at God’s Altar, that should not be looked towards as a means to encouarge vocations in girls.

 

[Brendan]

Women were deaconesses in the early Church.
Women are not deaconesses in the Church of today…

But we still have the role that Deaconess’ performed in the Early Church, It is called being a Mother Superior of a group of religious who care for the poor or sick (as opposed to those who Superior a convent of contempletives).

So instead of calling them “Deaconess”, we call them “Mother”; the role is the same, the title changed.

And women can still aspire to this role.

 

[Brendan]

OK
I mentioned St. Paul’s Epistle to indicate how things have changed since Vatican II.
God bless.

Vatican II, by definition, could not change what St. Paul wrote. God doesn’t contradict Himself.

St. Pauls words in Corthinas was not an absolute command ‘Must’, but a relative command ‘should’, showing an ideal state.

The same is true in the Church today, women cannot lector if an Instituted Reader is present. That role, like the Instituted Acolyte is reserved to the males.

 

[PaulinVA]

I am going to throw a word out that is sort of the undercurrent of this thread.

Power.

The power in the Church is held by ordained men. As a married man, I have no power in the Church or it’s affairs. Women have no power in the Church. We (the married men and the women) basically do not have a say in most things related to the Church.

Participation.

We, the laity, have no power but we can participate in many things. Participation is largely gender-neutral, since we are all seen as “interchangeable lay people”. Yes, the altar guild is mostly female and the Knights are male, but largely, either gender can be catechists, lectors, EMHCs, etc.

One conspicuous role that is contentious is the altar server. As many have pointed out, the altar server role is seen as a stepping stone to the priesthood. Thus, the altar serving role is a precursor or path to *power *in the Church.

I think that subconsciously some people see it as a waste of power for girls to serve because they can never aspire to the power position (priesthood) and if they do they are seen as iconoclasts who threaten the institution. If fact, they are just girls who see most things in their lives as gender neutral. Just as most altar-serving boys don’t want to be priests, most altar-serving girls don’t want to, either. But, for some people, just having them there disrupts the power arrangements in the Church.

So, I think there is not only tradition and participation at work here, but power as well.

 

[Tigg]

I have no idea what a “Catholic feminist theologian” is…What are people so afraid of?

Now I’m beginning to understand your posts - if you have no knowledge of the organized movement within the Church and the harm it has brought to the faith, you may well ask “what are people so afraid of?” If you really want to know, you should start by researching Rosemary Ruether and her works and you might want to pick up a copy of “Ungodly Rage” – a well researched documentary which assesses the ideology and overt (and covert) goals within the organization.

It’s not being desperate for recognition…it’s being desperate for more involvement.

Then that would be coming from the “Self” and not from God calling one into service. We are to honor the will of God by being obedient to Him through the Church – all of us should look to the examples of the female saints who walked the walk, sanctified their lives and did totally dedicate themseles to Christ – not by doing what they chose, but by sacrifice of themselves for the Lord and His desires (talk about “involvement”) – we should be teaching these young girls it is God they must serve whether or not they are at the altar or not.

 

[rlg94086]

I am going to throw a word out that is sort of the undercurrent of this thread.

Power.

The power in the Church is held by ordained men. As a married man, I have no power in the Church or it’s affairs. Women have no power in the Church. We (the married men and the women) basically do not have a say in most things related to the Church.

Participation.

We, the laity, have no power but we can participate in many things. Participation is largely gender-neutral, since we are all seen as “interchangeable lay people”. Yes, the altar guild is mostly female and the Knights are male, but largely, either gender can be catechists, lectors, EMHCs, etc.

One conspicuous role that is contentious is the altar server. As many have pointed out, the altar server role is seen as a stepping stone to the priesthood. Thus, the altar serving role is a precursor or path to *power *in the Church.

I think that subconsciously some people see it as a waste of power for girls to serve because they can never aspire to the power position (priesthood) and if they do they are seen as iconoclasts who threaten the institution. If fact, they are just girls who see most things in their lives as gender neutral. Just as most altar-serving boys don’t want to be priests, most altar-serving girls don’t want to, either. But, for some people, just having them there disrupts the power arrangements in the Church.

So, I think there is not only tradition and participation at work here, but power as well.

I don’t see it as a power issue, but I can see how some people can feel threatened by the all-male clergy because they feel like it is a power thing. We are all called to humility, but not everyone can deal with that. We all struggle with sin.

 

[StAnastasia]

Does that mean that you are a Catholic feminist theologian?

Theologian “yes”; feminist theologian “no.”

 

[jerry_joseph]

I hope you realize that the ministry of nuns and sisters in the Church consists of more than what you mentioned above and is most certainly not limited to decorating the altar.

By my quote i did’nt mean that only thing nuns are doing is decorating Altar. It is only one part of their works. They are leading monastrial life’s, doing Charity works etc.In my opinion girls should spent be more time with nuns, to know their life. Many nuns leads the laymen’s response in Holy Masses.