Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[PaulinVA]

I don’t see it as a power issue, but I can see how some people can feel threatened by the all-male clergy because they feel like it is a power thing. We are all called to humility, but not everyone can deal with that. We all struggle with sin.

Thank you for your kind and generous response.

 

[rlg94086]

Thank you for your kind and generous response.

Your welcome. :tiphat:

…I guess it’s okay to accuse our priests of bishops of holding women down because they are power mad, but don’t even suggest that people who think that way might just be dealing with their own feelings of inadequacy.

 

[HerrZJA]

Your welcome. :tiphat:

…I guess it’s okay to accuse our priests of bishops of holding women down because they are power mad, but don’t even suggest that people who think that way might just be dealing with their own feelings of inadequacy.

Well yeah, obviously. Now you’re talking about real people with feelings and blood, not abstract concepts!

Oh, hey, wait a minute…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I don’t see it as a power issue, but I can see how some people can feel threatened by the all-male clergy because they feel like it is a power thing. We are all called to humility, but not everyone can deal with that. We all struggle with sin.

I agree with bringing in the power thing…a priest as a position of power. Not that priest are power hungry by any means but they are the only one who can bring us the sacraments. And that doesn’t bother me in the least.

The problem I see is when some people try to increase their power by stating that woman can’t be in roles that they legitimately can such as readers, ushers, EMHC’s. Those are gener neutral roles, IMHO. But some people see it as a threat…a woman is trying to “play” priest…by being a reader or an EMHC? I don’t think so. As an EMHC I’m not trying to play priest anymore than the married man standing next to me is. Neither are allowed currently although I will give you that the married man stands a much better chance that I would. Nor do I want to be a priest. Talk about a headache!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Catholics ought to meditate on the great Wisdom of Christ. He did not speak much, but when He spoke, few things happened. either they would get angry, fearfull, or abandoned Him. Jesus was never an example of arguments back and forth.

So, medidate on the Wisdom of Christ. Seek God with all thy heart, mind and soul.

I would not dare to walk in the Holy Sanctuary of our Lord. I wear skirts and decent shirt, and a veil. When I get into the House of God, I kneel and pray quietly. I seek not my own understanding but seek His. I ask God always to protect me from the evil one who seeks the ruins of souls. I could not impose my will into the House of God for it is His House and not mine, and I respect and conceive that it is House and not mine. I shall do what pleases Him and not what pleases me. I look for the past to know His ways. I remain silent among confusion that I may know His ways. I look to the Saints and their humility that I may imitate them and not those in the world. Bless be God, Bless be His Holy Name.

Many have forgotten that priests and bishops can also be tempted by the enemy of God to be disobedient and do things contrary to the plan of God, even more so when people pressure them to do so.

 

[rlg94086]

I agree with bringing in the power thing…a priest as a position of power. Not that priest are power hungry by any means but they are the only one who can bring us the sacraments. And that doesn’t bother me in the least.

They are in a position of power, but it would be uncharitable to assume that they are making liturgical decisions for reasons of power.

The problem I see is when some people try to increase their power by stating that woman can’t be in roles that they legitimately can such as readers, ushers, EMHC’s. Those are gener neutral roles, IMHO. But some people see it as a threat…a woman is trying to “play” priest…by being a reader or an EMHC? I don’t think so.

As an EMHC I’m not trying to play priest anymore than the married man standing next to me is. Neither are allowed currently although I will give you that the married man stands a much better chance that I would. Nor do I want to be a priest. Talk about a headache!

Again, you are making assumptions. I agree that someone trying to “increase their power” or who see women as a “threat” would be a problem. However, in many cases it is just a matter of people’s perception of gender roles. Seeing traditional roles as the preferred norm is not necessarily power related.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

They are in a position of power, but it would be uncharitable to assume that they are making liturgical decisions for reasons of power.

As an EMHC I’m not trying to play priest anymore than the married man standing next to me is. Neither are allowed currently although I will give you that the married man stands a much better chance that I would. Nor do I want to be a priest. Talk about a headache!

Again, you are making assumptions. I agree that someone trying to “increase their power” or who see women as a “threat” would be a problem. However, in many cases it is just a matter of people’s perception of gender roles. Seeing traditional roles as the preferred norm is not necessarily power related.

Your quoting of me didn’t quite work correctly…now it looks like you are the female standing next to the married man EMCH

I didn’t assume that priests are making liturgical decisions based on power…I didn’t say that anywhere…just that I do see them as having power…simply because of their office…

Not everyone who has a problem with the gender roles is seeking power but it is there for some. I just don’t understand when people will quote the Church to make their point and then disregard what the church says/allows in other matters…

 

[rlg94086]

Your quoting of me didn’t quite work correctly…now it looks like you are the female standing next to the married man EMCH

I didn’t assume that priests are making liturgical decisions based on power…I didn’t say that anywhere…just that I do see them as having power…simply because of their office…

Not everyone who has a problem with the gender roles is seeking power but it is there for some. I just don’t understand when people will quote the Church to make their point and then disregard what the church says/allows in other matters…

Haha…oops. I’ve been the married man next to you.

Actually, my wife and I served together. I always distributed the Eucharist because I was scared to death of spilling the Precious Blood. I was very conflicted when I accepted the assignment from our pastor, because I prefer that only the ordained handle the Eucharist.

There are cases where the Church allows things that are not the norm and/or preferred This is the case with both the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion and Altar Servers. I’ve been to Masses where concelebrating priests remained seated while EMHCs distributed the Eucharist. This is ludicrous! EMHCs are only to be used when needed. Similarly, female altar servers are allowed, if necessary. The norm is still male. The reason, encouraging vocations, is valid.

 

[Tsuwano]

That is true.

To prepare and encourage girls to investigate a religious life one can look at the general charisms of the religious orders

1. Contemplative - girls should investigage spending significant amounts of time in Adoration
2. Mendicant - girls should look at working with the poor, perhaps at a local soup kitchen
3. Teaching - Volunteer as an assistant to a parish catechist.
4. Health care - spend time with the sick, or elderly

But since no female religious calling involves serving at God’s Altar, that should not be looked towards as a means to encouarge vocations in girls.

I agree. Serving the priest at the altar should be seen in the light of service to the local community and not necessarily as a stepping stone to a religious vocation. I would hope, however, that it would be a means of enhancing one’s faith and creating an awareness of service as a means of making Christ present among his people.

 

[Brendan]

They are in a position of power, but it would be uncharitable to assume that they are making liturgical decisions for reasons of power.
.

I would claim that it would be more accurate to say that the clergy were in a position of liturgical authority, rather than ‘power’

Christ granted the faithful certain authority, which is distinct from ‘power’.

The clergy, particularly the episcopate, have the authorithy to regulate the liturgy, and the responsibility to safeguard the Deposit of Faith given to the Apostles.

To the laity is given other authority, a particular example is the authority given to parents to oversee the faith formation of their children.

Each is authoritative in their own sphere, the clergy in the liturgy, the parents in the ‘Ecclesia Domestica’.

But I would not define either as ‘power’

 

[Brendan]

I agree. Serving the priest at the altar should be seen in the light of service to the local community and not necessarily as a stepping stone to a religious vocation. .

Again, I agree, with the caveat that service at the altar is recognized by the Church as enhancing vocations to the priesthood.

 

[Tsuwano]

I would claim that it would be more accurate to say that the clergy were in a position of liturgical authority, rather than ‘power’

Christ granted the faithful certain authority, which is distinct from ‘power’.

The clergy, particularly the episcopate, have the authorithy to regulate the liturgy, and the responsibility to safeguard the Deposit of Faith given to the Apostles.

To the laity is given other authority, a particular example is the authority given to parents to oversee the faith formation of their children.

Each is authoritative in their own sphere, the clergy in the liturgy, the parents in the ‘Ecclesia Domestica’.

But I would not define either as ‘power’

I completely agree with this, which is why I believe it is necessary for those who hold such liturgical authority to communicate with the laity and explain the positions they hold. The clergy and the laity should not be seen as being in competition with each other or with holding power over each other. When positions of authority are abused or those holding such authority are perceived as making decisions as a means of enhancing or exploiting power, then such communication is even more necessary. Holding a position of authority also means being willing to listen and to meet the needs of the community where it is possible, but in every case such authority is to be practiced with love and gentleness and a genuine desire to make Christ present in the life of the community.

 

[Califman831]

Catholics ought to meditate on the great Wisdom of Christ. He did not speak much, but when He spoke, few things happened. either they would get angry, fearfull, or abandoned Him. Jesus was never an example of arguments back and forth.

So, medidate on the Wisdom of Christ. Seek God with all thy heart, mind and soul.

I would not dare to walk in the Holy Sanctuary of our Lord. I wear skirts and decent shirt, and a veil. When I get into the House of God, I kneel and pray quietly. I seek not my own understanding but seek His. I ask God always to protect me from the evil one who seeks the ruins of souls. I could not impose my will into the House of God for it is His House and not mine, and I respect and conceive that it is House and not mine. I shall do what pleases Him and not what pleases me. I look for the past to know His ways. I remain silent among confusion that I may know His ways. I look to the Saints and their humility that I may imitate them and not those in the world. Bless be God, Bless be His Holy Name.

Many have forgotten that priests and bishops can also be tempted by the enemy of God to be disobedient and do things contrary to the plan of God, even more so when people pressure them to do so.

Best post I have read all month, God bless you wisdom

 

[iwunnder]

We are all created equal. At least that’s how I remember it in First Grade Catechism. I can’t imagine the Lord, who welcomed the children in every instance, would be in favor of excluding girls from serving Him at Mass. I believe He might have more surprises in store for us someday…maybe women should have been able to be priests. So much of what we believe is built on interpretation. We are human and one is apt to interpret things differently
than the next. Yes we had the Apostles…all male. But is that proof that priests need to be male? Again interpretation. I can’t find where it states anywhere in the Bible that women should not be priests. Not saying which way is correct. I am not priveleged to know. However I don’t think anyone can be certain on many of these issues. Keep searching. It’s a lifelong journey to the truth.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

We are all created equal. At least that’s how I remember it in First Grade Catechism. I can’t imagine the Lord, who welcomed the children in every instance, would be in favor of excluding girls from serving Him at Mass. I believe He might have more surprises in store for us someday…maybe women should have been able to be priests. So much of what we believe is built on interpretation. We are human and one is apt to interpret things differently
than the next. Yes we had the Apostles…all male. But is that proof that priests need to be male? Again interpretation. I can’t find where it states anywhere in the Bible that women should not be priests. Not saying which way is correct. I am not priveleged to know. However I don’t think anyone can be certain on many of these issues. Keep searching. It’s a lifelong journey to the truth.

Wunder no more, friend: The Church has spoken through the Holy Spirit and the Church has no AUTHORITY to ordain women.

No AUTHORITY. Even if it WANTED to, it has no such AUTHORITY, because God has made it so.

Just as the Church has no AUTHORITY to consecrate grape juice instead of wine, or pizza instead of bread. Just as the Church has no AUTHORITY to call the union of two men or two women a ‘marriage’ as marriage is one man and one woman.

And Catholics are not ‘sola Scriptura’ as the Bible is a wonderful TOOL but not an AUTHORITY. No BOOK can be an authority as it cannot ‘interpret itself’.

It is indeed a lifelong journey to faith and one should be careful not to go wandering off on paths that take one AWAY from the faith. . .

 

[Tigg]

We are all created equal. At least that’s how I remember it in First Grade Catechism. I can’t imagine the Lord, who welcomed the children in every instance, would be in favor of excluding girls from serving Him at Mass. I believe He might have more surprises in store for us someday…maybe women should have been able to be priests. So much of what we believe is built on interpretation. We are human and one is apt to interpret things differently
than the next. Yes we had the Apostles…all male. But is that proof that priests need to be male? Again interpretation. I can’t find where it states anywhere in the Bible that women should not be priests. Not saying which way is correct. I am not priveleged to know. However I don’t think anyone can be certain on many of these issues. Keep searching. It’s a lifelong journey to the truth.

Interpretation by men? The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Do not be so confused to think that developing Catholic doctrine will change by abandoning the old for something new. The growth in knowledge and understanding is always in the same vein and proceeds to a fuller vision, but what has always been believed will continue to be believed.

 

[louis91766]

Wunder no more, friend: The Church has spoken through the Holy Spirit and the Church has no AUTHORITY to ordain women.]

How do you know whether or not this is only an opinion of a Pope? For example, at the time of the Council of Florence, it was declared that a Jew could not enter into heaven. People thought that the Holy Spirit had spoken through the Church, but after Vatican II, some theologians say that this was only an opinion of the Pope and therefore could be changed later on. And it is now taught that a Jew may enter heaven, contrary to what the Church taught at the time of the Council of Florence?

 

[NewsTheMan]

How do you know whether or not this is only an opinion of a Pope? For example, at the time of the Council of Florence, it was declared that a Jew could not enter into heaven. People thought that the Holy Spirit had spoken through the Church, but after Vatican II, some theologians say that this was only an opinion of the Pope and therefore could be changed later on. And it is now taught that a Jew may enter heaven, contrary to what the Church taught at the time of the Council of Florence?

Because the Pope made it clear it was not just his opinion. The Pope, as the Vicar of Christ, didn’t even give an opinion in such a statement. He just said - “none of us have the power”.

Also, what documents that are doctrinally binding state a Jew cannot enter into Heaven? Specifically from the Council of Florence. If the Church reverses or changes any teaching then it is not the true Church and we should all give up. I think perhaps your source is questionnable or you’re not giving out all the information required to make a good judgement on this.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

How do you know whether or not this is only an opinion of a Pope? For example, at the time of the Council of Florence, it was declared that a Jew could not enter into heaven. People thought that the Holy Spirit had spoken through the Church, but after Vatican II, some theologians say that this was only an opinion of the Pope and therefore could be changed later on. And it is now taught that a Jew may enter heaven, contrary to what the Church taught at the time of the Council of Florence?

That is NOT what Cantate Domino said. So your argument fails.

 

[ColNY]

My teenage daughter has been an altar server since the moment she could be one–after she made her first communion. She is considered in our parish to be one of the most reliable ones on the list, often called upon to fill in or serve on short notice when others don’t show up. Our servers are a mix of boys and girls—75% coming from our parish school.

My daughter’s involvement in our parish is WAY beyond any opportunity I had as a girl. And I always wanted to be an altar server myself–something I remind her of constantly since when I was a girl, only boys were allowed. I feel it really has helped shape her faith in a positive way, something that I missed as a youth. The so-called opportunities for women/young girls during my day were not opportunities that would have inspired me in the least. For the record, my brother was an altar server—and he had no interest in ever becoming a priest. In fact, he doesn’t even have any interest in the Catholic faith, thanks to some horribly judgemental comments made by a priest when he went to have his daughter baptized Catholic (the same priest was arrested six months later for exposing himself in a park, but the damage he did with his comments to my brother will never be undone).

I look forward to the day in a few years, after she makes her confirmation, in which my daughter will join my husband and I on the altar as Eucharistic Ministers–something she is very much looking forward to doing. And I look forward in the next couple of months, when my 10 year old son is an altar server, and our entire family can serve together.

I feel bad for any parish who misses this opportunity to allow families to serve on the altar together.