Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[Tigg]

My teenage daughter has been an altar server since the moment she could be one–after she made her first communion. She is considered in our parish to be one of the most reliable ones on the list, often called upon to fill in or serve on short notice when others don’t show up. Our servers are a mix of boys and girls—75% coming from our parish school.

My daughter’s involvement in our parish is WAY beyond any opportunity I had as a girl. And I always wanted to be an altar server myself–something I remind her of constantly since when I was a girl, only boys were allowed. I feel it really has helped shape her faith in a positive way, something that I missed as a youth. The so-called opportunities for women/young girls during my day were not opportunities that would have inspired me in the least. For the record, my brother was an altar server—and he had no interest in ever becoming a priest. In fact, he doesn’t even have any interest in the Catholic faith, thanks to some horribly judgemental comments made by a priest when he went to have his daughter baptized Catholic (the same priest was arrested six months later for exposing himself in a park, but the damage he did with his comments to my brother will never be undone).

I look forward to the day in a few years, after she makes her confirmation, in which my daughter will join my husband and I on the altar as Eucharistic Ministers–something she is very much looking forward to doing. And I look forward in the next couple of months, when my 10 year old son is an altar server, and our entire family can serve together.

I feel bad for any parish who misses this opportunity to allow families to serve on the altar together.

That’s all fine as long as certain other principles are understood. Serving Christ and the Church does not happen just on the altar. There are equally important means to discipleship in areas such as humbly serving your neighbor in whatever manner is necessary, in the workplace and in secular society in general. For a lay person, being on the altar is not more important than these – it is just one manner of service. The other important point is that we must never cross the boundaries between the ministerial and common priesthood nor confuse the distinct identities of each.

Regarding the role of EMHC’s – again they are “Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion” – meaning that their role is contingent upon a genuine necessity and it should never be taken for granted by the laity that this is their “job” or that they, by right, might take this function from the ordained.

 

[ColNY]

That’s all fine as long as certain other principles are understood. Serving Christ and the Church does not happen just on the altar. There are equally important means to discipleship in areas such as humbly serving your neighbor in whatever manner is necessary, in the workplace and in secular society in general. For a lay person, being on the altar is not more important than these – it is just one manner of service. The other important point is that we must never cross the boundaries between the ministerial and common priesthood nor confuse the distinct identities of each.

Regarding the role of EMHC’s – again they are “Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion” – meaning that their role is contingent upon a genuine necessity and it should never be taken for granted by the laity that this is their “job” or that they, by right, might take this function from the ordained.

We do more as a family than just serve on the altar. But my point is that I disagree with the point made by some and what’s happening in Arizona that women/girls do not have ANY place on the altar other than a housekeeping-type role (i.e. altar preparation). I don’t agree that girls on the altar is the reason boys are staying away from that role or that those choosing priestly vocations are limited. I think there are factors that add to that–most of which are outside of the church. I know one of the reasons that signups for altar serving are down have to do with sports clubs–hockey in particular in this area, but also youth football and such, are scheduled for Sundays. This has had a terrible impact on the number of kids who have signed up to be altar servers in our parish. I also think it has to do with families and their committment to going to Mass regularily. We go to Mass every Sunday, as a family. That takes priority over everthing else on Sunday. Not all families have that committment. I have never, EVER heard any of the boys who serve say that they don’t want to because the girls are doing it.

As far as laity serving on the altar–it is the norm in our parish because we have ONE priest per Mass–and only one parish priest. And we’re not considered to be a “small parish”. We have a total of 5 Eucharistic Ministers at each weekend Mass. It is very rare for there to be two priests distributing the Body of Christ at any Mass, and never the Precious Blood. Even when we had an assistant pastor, we still needed Eucharistic Ministers. That being said, I don’t think any of us confuse our role with that of the priest. He’s the commander of the ship–we’re just sailors on board.

I think each of us has to look at what role they play in their faith life and how it brings them closer to Christ. For our family, there are several roles, but certainly, serving at the altar—something that both my parents do as well at daily Mass, is something that brings us more fully into the life of the Church. I love the opportunity to distribute communion to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ as it’s a humbling experience, reminder that we are all loved by and love God together–no matter what our differences may be. The idea that anyone could ever say to me, or my Mom or my daughter that our place on the altar should never be to serve during Mass, only in the background, is disheartening at best. :nope:

 

[Tsuwano]

We do more as a family than just serve on the altar. But my point is that I disagree with the point made by some and what’s happening in Arizona that women/girls do not have ANY place on the altar other than a housekeeping-type role (i.e. altar preparation). I don’t agree that girls on the altar is the reason boys are staying away from that role or that those choosing priestly vocations are limited. I think there are factors that add to that–most of which are outside of the church. I know one of the reasons that signups for altar serving are down have to do with sports clubs–hockey in particular in this area, but also youth football and such, are scheduled for Sundays. This has had a terrible impact on the number of kids who have signed up to be altar servers in our parish. I also think it has to do with families and their committment to going to Mass regularily. We go to Mass every Sunday, as a family. That takes priority over everthing else on Sunday. Not all families have that committment. I have never, EVER heard any of the boys who serve say that they don’t want to because the girls are doing it.

As far as laity serving on the altar–it is the norm in our parish because we have ONE priest per Mass–and only one parish priest. And we’re not considered to be a “small parish”. We have a total of 5 Eucharistic Ministers at each weekend Mass. It is very rare for there to be two priests distributing the Body of Christ at any Mass, and never the Precious Blood. Even when we had an assistant pastor, we still needed Eucharistic Ministers. That being said, I don’t think any of us confuse our role with that of the priest. He’s the commander of the ship–we’re just sailors on board.

I think each of us has to look at what role they play in their faith life and how it brings them closer to Christ. For our family, there are several roles, but certainly, serving at the altar—something that both my parents do as well at daily Mass, is something that brings us more fully into the life of the Church. I love the opportunity to distribute communion to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ as it’s a humbling experience, reminder that we are all loved by and love God together–no matter what our differences may be. The idea that anyone could ever say to me, or my Mom or my daughter that our place on the altar should never be to serve during Mass, only in the background, is disheartening at best. :nope:

Thank you for your post. I find that many of your thoughts and experiences are similar to my own.

 

[Brendan]

And we’re not considered to be a “small parish”. :

If you are not a small parish, how many men from your parish are in the seminary right now?

I come from a medium sized parish, about 950 families.

We currently have 8 men in the seminary at various stages and have had 1-2 men from our parish ordained each year for the last 10 years.

We have only altar boys, and if you have read the thread, we have LOTS of them at a given Mass, just about every boy aged 5-18ish who is present.

In my Archdiocese, the 5 parishes that have exclusively boys in altar service account for about 1/5 of the men in the seminary right now, out of 192 parishes in the archdiocese.

So 2% of the parishes account for about 20% of the vocations.

Why do you think that is so.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

Hi, Does the Vatican rule on this? Is there something in the Catechism that would help us on this?
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann:harp:

 

[Corki]

Hi, Does the Vatican rule on this? Is there something in the Catechism that would help us on this?
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann:harp:

The Vatican already “ruled”. Redemptionis Sacramentum allows the Bishop to permit female servers. Some Bishops do, some don’t. Even if the Bishop allows female servers in his diocese, it is up to the priest saying Mass if he wants to have famale servers for a given Mass.

 

[Brendan]

Hi, Does the Vatican rule on this? Is there something in the Catechism that would help us on this?
Blessings,
Kathryn Ann:harp:

Here is the actual letter from the Vatican on the subject

adoremus.org/CDW-AltarServers.html

In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.)

With respect to whether the practice of women serving at the altar would truly be of pastoral advantage in the local pastoral situation, it is perhaps helpful to recall that the non-ordained faithful do not have a right to service at the altar, rather they are capable of being admitted to such service by the Sacred Pastors (cf. Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 4, cf. also can 228, §1, Interdicasterial Instruction Esslesiae de mysterio, August 15, 1997, no. 4, see Notitiae 34 [1998] 9-42). Therefore, in the event that Your Excellency found it opportune to authorize service of women at the altar, it would remain important to explain clearly to the faithful the nature of this innovation, lest confusion might be introduced, thereby hampering the development of priestly vocations.

As Corki noted,

Per the Vatican, females may be used if

1. The Bishop choses to allow them in his diocese
2. The Pastor choses to allow them in his parish
3. The celebrant of the Mass choses to use them

So if a visiting priest desires to allow altar girls, but the pastor has chosen not to, the visiting priest may not admit girls to serve at his Mass.

Likewise, if a pastor and bishop have chosen to allow female servers, but an associate pastor does not desire them at the Masses he says, girls are not permitted to serve at those Masses.

Boys may not be excluded from altar service.

It is also interesting to note that neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict have chosen to use female altar servers in St. Peter’s. Altar service there is reserved to boys alone.

 

[PaulinVA]

So 2% of the parishes account for about 20% of the vocations.

Why do you think that is so.

I’ll turn that around. Specifically, what is it about girls that prevents vocations? Girls stymie God’s call to young men to be priests?

We’ve discussed this a lot on this thread, but placing that much emphasis on all male altar serving discounts catechesis, family formation, and the ability of God Himself.

 

[Corki]

I’ll turn that around. Specifically, what is it about girls that prevents vocations? Girls stymie God’s call to young men to be priests?

I can’t back this up statistically but this is where the problem seems to arise. Once the altar serving group becomes co-ed, it becomes harder for the priest to interact with the boys as individuals and for him to bring up the idea of priestly vocation. That’s true whether it is formal programs as Brenden described or just casual conversation before and after Mass.

It doesn’t “stymie God’s call” but it does muffle the sound.

We’ve discussed this a lot on this thread, but placing that much emphasis on all male altar serving discounts catechesis, family formation, and the ability of God Himself.

In my opinion, the people that are putting “that much emphasis” on this are those who are defending girl altar servers. I certainly don’t think this is the primary means of attracting young men to the priesthood. However, it is a good means and a time-tested means. To shut off **any **effective avenue during a period of time where vocations are so very needed seems to be a bad move.

Ideally, family formation, catechism classes and working in the Church community (ie altar serving) should all work together with the whole being much greater than the sum of the parts. When you turn one piece (ie altar serving) in another direction, it makes it harder for the other pieces to pick up the slack.

 

[Brendan]

I’ll turn that around. Specifically, what is it about girls that prevents vocations? Girls stymie God’s call to young men to be priests?

We’ve discussed this a lot on this thread, but placing that much emphasis on all male altar serving discounts catechesis, family formation, and the ability of God Himself.

I have never discounted catechesis. Rather, IYRC, I emphasised that having all boys as servers makes the ground more fertile for a calling.

Again, I refer you to the parable of the sower. The ground for any calling from God must be fertile first, or else it dies, or gets trampled on, or strangled by weeds.

If one single boy, during his formative years, is discouraged from becoming a server, either by parents, or yes, a perception that altar service in the parish is a ‘girl thing’, and a vocation is lost, that alone is worth the barring of girls.

 

[Brendan]

FYI, here is a typical Sunday am Mass at my parish.

(it will take a bit to load)

skydrive.live.com/?cid=D48DBDC01A7E8A7D&id=D48DBDC01A7E8A7D%21620&sc=photos

The priest is our new associate (we finally have an associate pastor )

With him are two of our three deacons, and a Chaldean Catholic Sub Deacon who is a member of our parish.

 

[YoungTradCath]

FYI, here is a typical Sunday am Mass at my parish.

(it will take a bit to load)

skydrive.live.com/?cid=D48DBDC01A7E8A7D&id=D48DBDC01A7E8A7D%21620&sc=photos

The priest is our new associate (we finally have an associate pastor )

With him are two of our three deacons, and a Chaldean Catholic Sub Deacon who is a member of our parish.

Jealous much.

 

[YoungTradCath]

**I agree. Serving the priest at the altar should be seen in the light of service to the local community and not necessarily as a stepping stone to a religious vocation. ** I would hope, however, that it would be a means of enhancing one’s faith and creating an awareness of service as a means of making Christ present among his people.

Yes, it absolutely should be seen as a stepping stone to a religious vocation. It is an absolutely terrible mistake not to do so. I think it is so wrong that we simply destroy tried-and-true traditions with the stroke of a pen in the name of “progress” and “equality.” It’s so disheartening and ridiculous.

 

[Brendan]

And prior to Mass, just before they all form up for the entrance procession, the altar boys gather by their vestry and recite this prayer together

Server’s Prayer Before Mass

Open my mouth, O Lord, to bless Thy Holy Name. Cleanse my heart from all evil and distracting thoughts. Enlighten my understanding, inflame my will, that I might serve worthily at Thy Holy Altar.

O Mary, Mother of Christ the High Priest, obtain for me the most important grace of knowing my vocation in life. Grant me a true spirit of faith and humble obedience so that I may ever behold the priest as a representative of God, and willingly follow him in the Way, the Truth and the Life of Christ,

Amen

After Mass, after they have processed out into the Narthex, the altar boys all stop and kneel. Then the celebrant gives them all a blessing before they are dismissed.

 

[PaulinVA]

I have never discounted catechesis. Rather, IYRC, I emphasized that having all boys as servers makes the ground more fertile for a calling.

But you’ve never explained why having girls serving poisons the ground. Is your only reason that boys think they have cooties?

Again, I refer you to the parable of the sower. The ground for any calling from God must be fertile first, or else it dies, or gets trampled on, or strangled by weeds.

Are the girls weeds strangling the call of God? Just their mere *presence *makes boys stay away and stymies God’s call? God is thwarted by eight year old girls?

If one single boy, during his formative years, is discouraged from becoming a server,** either by parents**, or yes, a perception that altar service in the parish is a ‘girl thing’, and a vocation is lost, that alone is worth the barring of girls.

Are you in favor of removing children from their homes to prevent that parental discouragement? I’m sorry, that’s a cheap shot - I know you do not. However, your view of God and the men He wants to call to the priesthood is sorta small.

 

[Brendan]

But you’ve never explained why having girls serving poisons the ground. Is your only reason that boys think they have cooties?

No, it’s the nature of boys. If you give a boy a choice between playing sports on an all boys team, or a co-ed team, the vast majority of boys will choose the all boys teams

Are the girls weeds strangling the call of God? Just their mere presence makes boys stay away and stymies God’s call? God is thwarted by eight year old girls?

Is God thwarted by anything? No, but He does work with free will. That is why some people hear God’s call, and choose not to accept it. That is true for the Gospel and equally true for vocations.

Why do you think Christ taught that parable in the first place? Do you believe that weeds do not exist, or that God is thwarted by them?

Are you in favor of removing children from their homes to prevent that parental discouragement? I’m sorry, that’s a cheap shot - I know you do not. However, your view of God and the men He wants to call to the priesthood is sorta small.

My view of God is quite large actually, and I believe all that He teaches (such as the parable of the sower), and I have been highly, highly impressed with the men He has seen ordained to the priesthood. Have I posted anything that has said otherwise? If so, could you please reference the post that gave you that impression?

 

[Karenfern]

Are you comparing service at the altar the same thing as joining a sports team? Aren’t you “protecting” future priests from a healthy view of women as God’s servants and exposing them to the dangers posed by such an adolescent view of sexuality? I studied with priests who were totally okay about women’s role in God’s plan and made it okay for me to be a leader in class. They expected me to stand out. St. Edith Stein wrote that women, because of their sensitive nature (definitely a plus) needed more intellectual challenge to strengthen who they are and what they can contribute. Are you calling her a planter of weeds? Gosh, I hope not. I think anything that orients a woman to give the maximum she can to God’s glory and service is a positive. If raising a boy to be afraid of women is constructive, I would hate to be a woman confessing to the priest who results from that indoctrination. Women’s holiness should be harnessed and not stifled. Girls should be **encouraged **to serve at the altar alongside boys so that their different natures can be donated to God.

 

[ColNY]

QUOTE=Karenfern;8413650]Are you comparing service at the altar the same thing as joining a sports team? Aren’t you “protecting” future priests from a healthy view of women as God’s servants and exposing them to the dangers posed by such an adolescent view of sexuality? I studied with priests who were totally okay about women’s role in God’s plan and made it okay for me to be a leader in class. They expected me to stand out. St. Edith Stein wrote that women, because of their sensitive nature (definitely a plus) needed more intellectual challenge to strengthen who they are and what they can contribute. Are you calling her a planter of weeds? Gosh, I hope not. I think anything that orients a woman to give the maximum she can to God’s glory and service is a positive. If raising a boy to be afraid of women is constructive, I would hate to be a woman confessing to the priest who results from that indoctrination. Women’s holiness should be harnessed and not stifled. Girls should be **encouraged **to serve at the altar alongside boys so that their different natures can be donated to God.



Well said. As I read some of these posts, I see number of individuals, who see a woman’s place as being subserviant to a man in every way, shape or form. They fear strong women. Even their smug “corrections” of some terms and posts (my priest calls us Eucharistic Ministers, by the way—that’s how we’re referred to in our parish and diocese!) suggests an insecurity.

I’m glad that our bishop, our parish priests, our diocese does not see things the way these diocese do–and as far as priests from our parish go–we just celebrated the ordination of one of our own recenty. And when he was a lay minister, we served together many times. It didn’t scare him off.

 

[PaulinVA]

Why do you think Christ taught that parable in the first place? Do you believe that weeds do not exist, or that God is thwarted by them?

This is what He said about the parable. It was about the Good News of salvation, not about vocations at all:

13* Jesus said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand any of the parables?

14The sower sows the word.

15These are the ones on the path where the word is sown. As soon as they hear, Satan comes at once and takes away the word sown in them.

16And these are the ones sown on rocky ground who, when they hear the word, receive it at once with joy.

17But they have no root; they last only for a time. Then when tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

18Those sown among thorns are another sort. They are the people who hear the word,

19but worldly anxiety, the lure of riches, and the craving for other things intrude and choke the word, and it bears no fruit.

20But those sown on rich soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit thirty and sixty and a hundredfold.”

 

[Brendan]

Are you comparing service at the altar the same thing as joining a sports team?

I was using it as an example of how boys work

Aren’t you “protecting” future priests from a healthy view of women as God’s servants and exposing them to the dangers posed by such an adolescent view of sexuality?

Huh, we are talking about working with boys who ARE adolescents, or pre-adolescent. They are SUPPOSED to have an adolscent view of women,

I studied with priests who were totally okay about women’s role in God’s plan and made it okay for me to be a leader in class. They expected me to stand out. St. Edith Stein wrote that women, because of their sensitive nature (definitely a plus) needed more intellectual challenge to strengthen who they are and what they can contribute. Are you calling her a planter of weeds?

Anything can be a weed if it acts contrary to God’s plan. Money, cars, sports, a job, and yes even girls.

If raising a boy to be afraid of women is constructive, I would hate to be a woman confessing to the priest who results from that indoctrination.

Who said anything about raising boys to be afraid of women?? All I am saying is if one wishes to foster groups of altar boys in ways that are producting to vocations ( see the Vatican document I posted a few postes earlier), then you work within the nature of boys.

Women’s holiness should be harnessed and not stifled. Girls should be **encouraged **to serve at the altar alongside boys so that their different natures can be donated to God.

That is NOT what the Vatican had to say. It said that groups of BOYS are to be encouraged in altar service. I fail to see how any opinion of posters here would be more authoritative than what Rome had to say.

What I hear you saying is not that the boys nature should be donated to God, but rather discarded and changed to comply with your wishes. That is hardly a gift to God.

As far as women’s holiness. Was Mary an altar server?, how about the Little Flower? St. Theresa of Avilia? How about Edith Stein??

Given those great examples, it’s clear that women’s holiness does not hindge on altar service, so why claim that it does?