Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[Tsuwano]

I am saying what Christ was saying, that He was talking about the Word of God, the Incarnate Logos that John wrote about.

Are you claiming that Christ considers the “Word of God” to be something different than what John wrote about. And if not, does a call to the priesthood happen without the Logos?

You will also note that the Cardinal used the parable in the same sense as I did, that the calling to the priesthood is a seed that can be thrown on fertile, or non fertile ground

Will you not agree that the Cardinals usage of the parable matches how I have been using it?

FYI, the reason the Cardinal spoke on that topic was that “Sowing on Fertile Ground” was the theme of that years Congress on vocations. Why would the collective bishops of North American choose that as a theme if the parable did not apply to vocations.

First of all, I know altar serving makes the ground more fertile, as I have seen it in my own parish, and Rome has stated so in it’s letters to the bishops on the subject.

I do understand that you believe that it is simply a matter of Rome lying to the bishops, ‘company speak’ was I believe the term you used.

As to the other points, I will refer you back to the Cardinal’s words

If the girls are a distraction, then they are to be removed, lest a vocation be suffocated.

If a boy choses not to engage in altar service based on the impression that it’s something that girls do, then the girls should be removed, lest a vocation be suffocated.

If altar girls are used due to a secularized world view that portrays a false understanding of what equality is, then altar girls should not be used.

As I said, if one single vocation is lost anywhere due to these, the price of altar girls is too much.

If a boy chooses not to engage in altar service based on the impression that it’s something that girls do, I fail to see why the girl should be removed instead of the boy should be educated.

 

[HerrZJA]

As I said, if one single vocation is lost anywhere due to these, the price of altar girls is too much.

Are potential priestly vocations somehow more valuable than potential vacations to religious life? Did I miss some fundamental teaching somewhere in my catechesis that teaches that priests are better than other religious or, for that matter, laypeople?

Holy Orders is not definitive holiness, but an expression of that holiness.

 

[ColNY]

If a boy chooses not to engage in altar service based on the impression that it’s something that girls do, I fail to see why the girl should be removed instead of the boy should be educated.

Bingo:thumbsup:

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Bingo:thumbsup:

That is a good point. . .IF what the girl is actually doing is something that is worthwhile and appropriate for girls/women to do.

And that’s why we’re evaluating the subject.

When it comes to disciplines such as serving on the altar, transferring of feast days to the nearest Sunday, even things like priestly celibacy, the Church CAN change. And that includes ‘changing BACK’ if the first change does not seem to be working out as intended.

Note that in England and Wales after many years the bishops have reinstituted the Friday abstinence on ALL Fridays. So a ‘change’ in a discipline is not necessarily permanent.

When it comes to the question of girl/women altar servers, there are points to be made on both sides. Ultimately, it will be up to the Church to determine whether the current practice of allowing bishops/priests their individual judgment call will continue, or whether the older practice of male-only will be reinstituted. One can only hope that if ‘male-only’ is reinstituted (and there are certain points from the religious and even secular aspect which indeed support this) that those who currently favor women altar servers (and again, there are certain points in favor from not just ‘secular’ but even religious to support this) would obediently submit to the Church’s higher wisdom with just as much willingness as they would submit if the Church decides, “We’ll keep it as we are now with women servers as well as men.”

 

[PaulinVA]

I am saying what Christ was saying, that He was talking about the Word of God, the Incarnate Logos that John wrote about.

Are you claiming that Christ considers the “Word of God” to be something different than what John wrote about. And if not, does a call to the priesthood happen without the Logos?

You will also note that the Cardinal used the parable in the same sense as I did, that the calling to the priesthood is a seed that can be thrown on fertile, or non fertile ground.

I am a simple person. I asked you a very simple question about the parable of the sower and the original intention when Jesus was talking to the Jews. That’s all. You are rolling out everything you can to bludgeon me with John’s words, a Cardinal’s words, and Christ Himself. I just wanted a simple yes or no as to what you thought.

Will you not agree that the Cardinals usage of the parable matches how I have been using it?

FYI, the reason the Cardinal spoke on that topic was that “Sowing on Fertile Ground” was the theme of that years Congress on vocations. Why would the collective bishops of North American choose that as a theme if the parable did not apply to vocations.

Yes, you can expand the story, use it as a** launching pad**. Absolutely.

First of all, I know altar serving makes the ground more fertile, as I have seen it in my own parish, and Rome has stated so in it’s letters to the bishops on the subject.

I do understand that you believe that it is simply a matter of Rome lying to the bishops, ‘company speak’ was I believe the term you used.

I never said lying. I said that there is an unproven hypothesis that is repeated as fact. It happens all the time.

And, in your parish, as I’ve said before, you have great results but there are probably many factors that are leading to “fertile ground” - not just altar serving. You sell your priest and fellow parishioners short when you ascribe the result to only altar serving.

As I said, if one single vocation is lost anywhere due to these, the price of altar girls is too much.

Now, we are back to the question of how in the world does the presence of girls on the altar stymie the Logos. God spreads his seed abundantly. Meaning more than enough. Overflowing.

 

[Brendan]

If a boy chooses not to engage in altar service based on the impression that it’s something that girls do, I fail to see why the girl should be removed instead of the boy should be educated.

The boy educated on what exactly?

On how NOT to be a preadolecent boy?

f the boy IS a preadolecent boy, would we want to do that?

I think that is part of the problem we are seeing. We want kids to ‘grow up’ too quickly and put pressure on them to do so.

Rather, we should work with them at where they are at.

The fact is, the Vatican told us that we are to encourage large groups of boys in altar service.

What parishes are doing, and what you are suggesting, is just the opposite. Creating conditions where young boys have no desire to do what the Vatican is asking.

Rather, we tell them they need to act against the nature of young boys, and they simply decline to do so,

And that has hurt vocations.

 

[Elizabeth502]

If a boy chooses not to engage in altar service based on the impression that it’s something that girls do, I fail to see why the girl should be removed instead of the boy should be educated.

I see: he should be educated out of his maleness, is that it?
Do you not understand that males respond differently to certain stimuli, and the mode of patterning, than females do, because of biological differences? That they are concrete, visual, and physical in their orientation (more so than girls as a whole)? That it is not so much that an opposite visual is a disincentive, so much as that it has no persuasive power? (It carries within it no particular significance for a boy that, as a boy, he can relate to?)

It’s not that he’s subconsciously patterning: “Ewww; don’t want to be giiirrrlll…” It’s that he benefits directly and immediately from visual reminders, especially when those are frequent and numerous. And the lack of such reminders affects his motivation and identification with the activity.

Males also benefit from observing “command structures” and imagining themselves within those structures. Or you may call it leadership if you wish. But the observation of an entire group of boys “under the wing” of guiding seminarians (+ presiding priests guiding those seminarians), is also extremely beneficial for boys. That’s the way it works in a parish near me, and even I can see what a powerful witness this is for boys. You literally watch while anywhere from 2 to 10 boys (depending on the solemnity of the occasion) are being guided by the seminarians in cassocks, and all in turn are following the priest.

Males are also goal-oriented, so that watching the above, should there be the possibility of a latent vocation there, allows him even subconsciously to pattern that mentally and retrieve it as part of a later discernment.

 

[Brendan]

IMales also benefit from observing “command structures” and imagining themselves within those structures. Or you may call it leadership if you wish. But the observation of an entire group of boys “under the wing” of guiding seminarians (+ presiding priests guiding those seminarians), is also extremely beneficial for boys. That’s the way it works in a parish near me, and even I can see what a powerful witness this is for boys. You literally watch while anywhere from 2 to 10 boys (depending on the solemnity of the occasion) are being guided by the seminarians in cassocks, and all in turn are following the priest.
.

It’s like that in our parish as well (see the video I linked to on page 41)

We have almost every boy, aged 5-18, as altar servers.

The 5 year olds cannot wait to be asked by the pastor. It is a BIG day in their lives. Why, mostly because they get to do what the “Big Boys” do. I don’t think most 5 year old boys would have much interest in doing what the “Big Girls” do.

And from then on, they learn from, and emulate the older boys as they learn more complex serving tasks. The older series of boys have the Sacramentary so well known that they will turn the pages for the priest during the Eucharistic Prayer.

The end result is that we have had 12 men ordained from our parish in the last 10 years, and have 8 more men in the seminary at various stages of formation.

So we’re looking good for the next several years as well

CoINY, how many men from YOUR parish have been ordained in the last few years, and how many men from your parish are in the seminary now?

It would be interesting to see how our parishes compare.

 

[Brendan]

I You literally watch while anywhere from 2 to 10 boys (depending on the solemnity of the occasion) are being guided by the seminarians in cassocks, and all in turn are following the priest…

I also like how you noted that this parish has ‘seminarians’ as in plural.

Most “co-ed” altar server parishes consider themselves lucky to have a single seminarian or recently ordainted priest.

In parishes like mine, and the one you mentioned, having multiple seminarians are considered the norm.

I wonder why that is, and other parishes have such a lack of vocations?

 

[ChemicalBean]

I see: he should be educated out of his maleness, is that it?

Well, I read the earlier post not as “he should be educated out of his maleness” but that “he should be educated INTO his Manliness.” Real Men respect women as their partners, their equals, and their co-workers. If we don’t expect ourselves to teach boys how to relate to girls of their age, should we expect that the men that they turn into suddenly get a clue how to relate properly to women? Don’t we expect our seminarians to know how to relate to women? This doesn’t necessarily mean they have to stop making fart noises with their armpits or striving to become loogie-hauking champion of the universe. (Some men never do mature in this fashion.) It does mean that we have to stop making excuses for boys’ behavior with respect to relations to girls.

 

[rlg94086]

Well, I read the earlier post not as “he should be educated out of his maleness” but that “he should be educated INTO his Manliness.” Real Men respect women as their partners, their equals, and their co-workers. If we don’t expect ourselves to teach boys how to relate to girls of their age, should we expect that the men that they turn into suddenly get a clue how to relate properly to women? Don’t we expect our seminarians to know how to relate to women? This doesn’t necessarily mean they have to stop making fart noises with their armpits or striving to become loogie-hauking champion of the universe. (Some men never do mature in this fashion.) It does mean that we have to stop making excuses for boys’ behavior with respect to relations to girls.

You, and others, are missing the point. The idea is to attract boys to altar serving, which, in turn, encourages vocations when they become men. We don’t force boys to be altar servers, so how do you propose we simultaneously attract them to altar service and “teach [them] how to relate properly to women?”

There are plenty of opportunities to teach boys how to relate properly to women. Altar service isn’t the most effective place.

 

[Elizabeth502]

You, and others, are missing the point. The idea is to attract boys to altar serving, which, in turn, encourages vocations when they become men.

There are plenty of opportunities to teach boys how to relate properly to women. Altar service isn’t the most effective place.

Indeed. It is a very inappropriate place to teach those social skills. And I agree that the poster missed the point of the thread, and misses the point of altar serving as an additional iconic draw into the deeper ministerial service of priesthood. Girls, OTOH, are merely in a holding pattern at the altar. They will never be Catholic priests, no matter how people on CAF privately or publicly, externally or internally, deny that fact. At least not in any Church that is in communion with Rome.

Females are needed and in fact indispensable as lectors, cantors, musicians, and leaders of all kinds of ministries in the Church and in the parish specifically, including in intellectual roles. I support widespread roles for women in every other area of Church life.

 

[Tsuwano]

The boy educated on what exactly?

On how NOT to be a preadolecent boy?

f the boy IS a preadolecent boy, would we want to do that?

I think that is part of the problem we are seeing. We want kids to ‘grow up’ too quickly and put pressure on them to do so.

Rather, we should work with them at where they are at.

The fact is, the Vatican told us that we are to encourage large groups of boys in altar service.

What parishes are doing, and what you are suggesting, is just the opposite. Creating conditions where young boys have no desire to do what the Vatican is asking.

Rather, we tell them they need to act against the nature of young boys, and they simply decline to do so,

And that has hurt vocations.

Not on how not to be a preadolescent boy, but on how to be a mature young man worthy of serving at the Lord’s altar. The Vatican is correct in wanting young men to serve at the altar, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that girls can’t serve. If a young boy is reluctant to serve at the altar because a girl is also serving, then perhaps he should be taught the meaning of service rather than punishing the girl because a boy dislikes her presence. Creating conditions where boys have a desire to serve at the altar does not mean creating conditions where a girl cannot serve. It means working with the children so that they mutually understand what it means to serve their community and the Lord as altar servers.

 

[Tsuwano]

That is a good point. . .IF what the girl is actually doing is something that is worthwhile and appropriate for girls/women to do.

And that’s why we’re evaluating the subject.

When it comes to disciplines such as serving on the altar, transferring of feast days to the nearest Sunday, even things like priestly celibacy, the Church CAN change. And that includes ‘changing BACK’ if the first change does not seem to be working out as intended.

Note that in England and Wales after many years the bishops have reinstituted the Friday abstinence on ALL Fridays. So a ‘change’ in a discipline is not necessarily permanent.

When it comes to the question of girl/women altar servers, there are points to be made on both sides. Ultimately, it will be up to the Church to determine whether the current practice of allowing bishops/priests their individual judgment call will continue, or whether the older practice of male-only will be reinstituted. One can only hope that if ‘male-only’ is reinstituted (and there are certain points from the religious and even secular aspect which indeed support this) that those who currently favor women altar servers (and again, there are certain points in favor from not just ‘secular’ but even religious to support this) would obediently submit to the Church’s higher wisdom with just as much willingness as they would submit if the Church decides, “We’ll keep it as we are now with women servers as well as men.”

Many parishes and dioceses have already determined that it is something worthwhile and appropriate for girls and women to do and the Vatican has given permission for that determination to be made by the local bishop.

 

[ColNY]

Many parishes and dioceses have already determined that it is something worthwhile and appropriate for girls and women to do and the Vatican has given permission for that determination to be made by the local bishop.

I’m very curious about what some people see as “worthwhile and appropriate” for girls and are these roles that men see are “beneath” them and that’s why they’re “appropriate” for girls.

I see the roles my mother, my daughter and I play in our parish as “worthwhile and appropriate” : EMHC (my mom and I) and altar server (my daughter).

 

[Brendan]

Not on how not to be a preadolescent boy, but on how to be a mature young man worthy of serving at the Lord’s altar. .

But being a preadolscent boy often means that they do not desire to pursue activities with girls.

So your statements are contradictory.

Do you desire to see these boys ‘mature’ earlier than God intents for them?

Why not work with preadolecent boys in the way they are, and to work with a mature young man as he is?

If a young boy is reluctant to serve at the altar because a girl is also serving, then perhaps he should be taught the meaning of service rather than punishing the girl because a boy dislikes her presence

How exactly is the girl being ‘punished’, she, like any lay person, has NO right to serve at the altar. She is being denied nothing she has a right to claim. So if a diocese or parish chooses not to use girls, there is no ‘punishment’.

 

[Brendan]

I’m very curious about what some people see as “worthwhile and appropriate” for girls and are these roles that men see are “beneath” them and that’s why they’re “appropriate” for girls.

How about activities that are indicative of vocations to that of women religious>

There are four main charisms for women religious

1. Contemtemplative - encourage girls to spend time in Adoration
2. Mendicant - encourage girls to work with the poor
   3 Teaching - encouarge girls to perhaps assist in running parish catechism classes
   4 Health care - encourage girls to visit the elderly at nursing homes.

There are no roles that are ‘beneath’ men, no more so than motherhood is beneath fatherhood. But God created men and women differently, and their callings are different.

So encourage boys to purse activities such as altar service, which promotes the acceptance of priestly callings, and encourage girls to purse activities that promote a religious calling.

BTW, I would still like an answer to my question. How many men in your parish are in the seminary, and how many has your parish seen ordained in the last few years?

.

I see the roles my mother, my daughter and I play in our parish as “worthwhile and appropriate” : EMHC (my mom and I) and altar server (my daughter).

As a priest friend of mine told a class of EMHC’s: “Every prayer for vocations is a prayer that your ministry will end”. EMHC’s are only permitted when there is shortage of clergy, and even then the preferred EMHC is an Instituted Acolyte, a role reserved to men.

So "worthwhile’, yes, since your parish has a shortage of clergy. “Appropriate”, well, the Church consideres it more appropriate if clergy and Acolytes perform that service. Others many perform that service only when there is a lack of clergy and Acolytes.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I’m very curious about what some people see as “worthwhile and appropriate” for girls and are these roles that men see are “beneath” them and that’s why they’re “appropriate” for girls.

I see the roles my mother, my daughter and I play in our parish as “worthwhile and appropriate” : EMHC (my mom and I) and altar server (my daughter).

To perceive altar serving as this way is one-sided. It might be worthwhile for the girl, but is it worth it for others at the expense of a possible vocation? Nope.

 

[Corki]

Many parishes and dioceses have already determined that it is something worthwhile and appropriate for girls and women to do and the Vatican has given permission for that determination to be made by the local bishop.

Absolutely!

If a Bishop reaches that conclusion, fine. But if a Bishop reaches the conclusion that there is a benefit to an all-male altar server norm, that’s fine too. In fact, that’s the default. A Bishop can chose not to make a decision at all, in which case, there would be only boys serving at the altar. A priest needs no directive or special permission to have only boys serving at the altar. But to have girls serving requires that the Bishop first gives permission for that to occur in his diocese.

If, or when, a Bishop decides not to offer permission for girls to serve or if a priest decides not to exercise the option when its available, there is no reason to ascribe misogynistic motives to the decision. It is simply that for that Bishop/priest, in his circumstances, an all male group of altar servers is determined to be “something worthwhile and appropriate”. Since all-male is the default, no explanation is required.

 

[Tigg]

Are potential priestly vocations somehow more valuable than potential vacations to religious life?

In a nutshell…Yes!! Without the priesthood we would have no Church at all!