Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[rlg94086]

I’m very curious about what some people see as “worthwhile and appropriate” for girls and **are these roles that men see are “beneath” them and that’s why they’re “appropriate” for girls. **

I see the roles my mother, my daughter and I play in our parish as “worthwhile and appropriate” : EMHC (my mom and I) and altar server (my daughter).

Your assumption of chauvinism is noted.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Brendan, I do think there is a failure here in the responses to understand male pyschology in trerms of what motivates in the positive direction, when it comes to envisioning, joining, and committing. Some posters do not understand, or do not wish to acknowledge, that this is not a matter of revulsion on the part of the young male, but of identification. That is a huge difference. (Or, posters want to put that aside – if they do understand these dynamics – in favor or female “inclusion.”) And yes, the bishops, as Corki and others note, are given discretion. However, I have seen many a bishop and local priest choose for social/political reasons, not for pragmatic reasons. I think I understand you and agree with you that pragmatics – in terms of vocations — is what we’re talking about. In all the parishes which have coed altar servers in my diocese, there’s like zero to one vocation per year.

Obviously the many altar boys I’ve been mentioning at my parish are too young to affect the current rate of vocation growth, so I’ll have to see what difference it will make to have such mass/Mass displays, but I will be very surprised if it has little or no effect. (I’m fairly sure this is a new, and increasing trend in this parish.)

The thing about the visibility of lots of altar boys + seminarians + priests at the altar is the element of solidarity which appeals to males. Has nothing to do with exclusion per se, but with working within a team of other males in a leadership and authority structure. Biology doesn’t just “go away” because of political pressures and social norms within an institution or within a society.

The boy is not “saying” internally, “Well, if/snce I can’t envision myself at the altar [because it’s not a particularly guy thing to be there], I am uninterested in any service to the church. I believe in gender segregation.” It’s the role that’s crucial, and that role has a context.

OTOH, if a girl, or her mother, insists that either she gets to be altar girl or she will not serve her Church, let the Church do without her service. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is not the spirit of service. I want to make it clear: I am not what is called a Radical Traditionalist. I do not want to turn back the clock on female inclusion, tell girls to be seen from and heard as little as possible, etc. And I do not think it is “more religious” or more authentic to favor such sentiments in the Roman Church. I am actually in favor of radically more inclusion in the Church in areas where historically females have not been included. And that includes Rome itself, by the way. But it does not include the priesthood, or a key conduit to that: altar serving. And this is not a thread about all that female inclusion in the wider universal Church, so I will not participate in derailing into a very different conversation.

 

[Brendan]

INow, we are back to the question of how in the world does the presence of girls on the altar stymie the Logos. God spreads his seed abundantly. Meaning more than enough. Overflowing.

Since the seed is spread with abundance, that means that there are an abundance of vocations, correct.

Or at least there should be in most parishes.

If not, is the Logos being stymied?

 

[PaulinVA]

Since the seed is spread with abundance, that means that there are an abundance of vocations, correct.

Or at least there should be in most parishes.

If not, is the Logos being stymied?

It is an interesting passage from the document you quoted.

I guess you can read it in several different ways. One way is that He spreads the seed abundantly so that if even 20% of the men who were 'planted" responded then the need for priests is met. Another would be that He spreads the seeds abundantly so that there is an overflowing harvest.

There is an interesting meeting of the spiritual and the secular in the subject of vocations. There is a practical need for priests, and there is a practical limit of the number of young men who can be in the present seminaries. There is a limit to how many priests can be housed and supported in a diocese. We are probably nowhere near that limit, but it exists.

So, how many priests does God want us to have? If God spreads His seeds abundantly, does that mean that a man could be priest or could live a married vocation and it would be just the same to God?

 

[Karenfern]

My policy is this: I would not drop my five bucks into the collection at the Phoenix Cathedral. Rather, I would use the little form to write a curt note saying “No girls, no money.” That would be opened by the accounting staff of the Cathedral and conveyed to the rector. I will not support an institution that bans girls from serving at the altar. Lest it be thought of as Anti-Catholic, I donated hymnals to the Fordham University church because they thought differently. I am a woman and I respect the right of women to participate in the worship of God at a level higher than laundering the altar cloth or arranging flowers. I believe those are valuable services, don’t get me wrong, but a woman capable of serving at mass is a treasure to be encouraged, not prohibited. If boys are scandalized by serving with girls at mass, they ought not be serving at all.

 

[YoungTradCath]

My policy is this: I would not drop my five bucks into the collection at the Phoenix Cathedral. Rather, I would use the little form to write a curt note saying “No girls, no money.” That would be opened by the accounting staff of the Cathedral and conveyed to the rector. I will not support an institution that bans girls from serving at the altar. Lest it be thought of as Anti-Catholic, I donated hymnals to the Fordham University church because they thought differently. I am a woman and I respect the right of women to participate in the worship of God at a level higher than laundering the altar cloth or arranging flowers. I believe those are valuable services, don’t get me wrong, but a woman capable of serving at mass is a treasure to be encouraged, not prohibited. If boys are scandalized by serving with girls at mass, they ought not be serving at all.

That’s a pretty terrible attitude to have. Why not just refuse to give when they play a song you don’t like, or when the priest wears horrid, atrocious vestments? Thanks for the hymnals, but it doesn’t make up for anything. No one has the right to serve at the altar. That’s the central thing here. No one, not even boys.

I think your last sentence is what sums it all up. Boys should always, everywhere, and for all purposes serve at mass. It’s undeniable that vocations are influenced by altar service. You can’t deny that. It’s common sense. If girls are allowed to also serve at the altar, then for various reasons, the numbers of boys doing so goes down, and this has a proportional effect on priestly vocations. And I really don’t feel the need to go looking for some massive twenty-year study by some group of liturgical scholars to make my point.

 

[Brendan]

My policy is this: I would not drop my five bucks into the collection at the Phoenix Cathedral. Rather, I would use the little form to write a curt note saying “No girls, no money.” :

So, in other words, if you don’t get your way at the parish, you’re going to throw a petty little tantrum. The Church must conform to your personal wishes, or else you will withhold charitable offerings. Is that what you believe Christ taught?

I am a woman and I respect the right of women to participate in the worship of God at a level higher than laundering the altar cloth or arranging flowers.

Do you really believe that altar service is a “higher level” of worship. If so, you have an incredibly misinformed sense of what Catholic worship is.

If boys are scandalized by serving with girls at mass, they ought not be serving at all.

Karen, first of all, go up and read Elizabeth’s great post (#663)

Secondly, I’ll ask you the same questions that I asked CoINY; How many men from your parish are in the seminary right now, and how many have been recently ordained from your parish?

 

[KimberlyAnn0218]

I think what Iwuudner was trying to say ( or maybe not and I am adding my own spin on things) is that we as humans are imperfect and witht hat imperfection comes mistakes and misinterpretations. Whether or not this is one of those, I can’t say with any kind of certainly-I am no Theologian. I can accept it though, because I am not made to fully understand.
I like to think that women can do anything a man can do, but we can’t–same goes for men not being able to do what women can do. That’s life and we should embrace it. Man and woman were made to complement each other-not compete. As a woman I have the gift of being able to carry a child for 9 months, give birth, feed, and raise that child. Not to dinminish the man’s role at all, but no matter how warped science ever gets, a man can never do the first two things. Why then should it bother me that no matter how much I would ever want to be a Priest? ( which I don’t) I can’t because that is just the way it is. My gift is different. That is how I as a modern, well educated woman accepts that there are things I cannot do-becuase I am uniquely gifted to do somethign else How does this relate to the ORIGINAL post? I am not sure that we know whether or not girls should be altar servers. I have 3 sons who want nothing to do with it I am sorry to say-I don’t think the girls have anything to do with it. I think if it needs to go back to all boys, then some Parishes will have to encourage teens. IN my Parish it seems to be a mainly under 14 service.

Kim

 

[Shin_Shiri]

In the place where I’m from, I’ve never seen girls serving at the altar, so it’s already a strange concept to have them there, and I can’t see what’s with the people getting so angry over the decision.

Alot of times people are getting upset because of the “ME” thing, what I want, what I can do, instead of thinking of the situation as a community. Guess that’s really why people are upset, it’s all about what “I” want.

 

[YoungTradCath]

My policy is this: I would not drop my five bucks into the collection at the Phoenix Cathedral. Rather, I would use the little form to write a curt note saying “No girls, no money.” That would be opened by the accounting staff of the Cathedral and conveyed to the rector. I will not support an institution that bans girls from serving at the altar. Lest it be thought of as Anti-Catholic, I donated hymnals to the Fordham University church because they thought differently. I am a woman and I respect the right of women to participate in the worship of God at a level higher than laundering the altar cloth or arranging flowers. I believe those are valuable services, don’t get me wrong, but a woman capable of serving at mass is a treasure to be encouraged, not prohibited. If boys are scandalized by serving with girls at mass, they ought not be serving at all.

Also… after re-reading this… you have a “policy” about churches you give money to?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I will not support an institution that bans girls from serving at the altar. Lest it be thought of as Anti-Catholic, I donated hymnals to the Fordham University church because they thought differently. I am a woman and I respect the right of women to participate in the worship of God at a level higher than laundering the altar cloth or arranging flowers:

Karen, you come from a Jewish viewpoint. In Reform Judaism, women are rabbis and cantors at the bema. (Sorry, I don’t have a Hebrew keyboard. ) Even in ancient Judaism, women had some governance roles within the community, although not as significant as men’s. In Catholicism, the connotation of “participation” [in worship] has an entirely different sense. We participate fully when we are physically present and interiorly assent. Thus, people at Mass who are mute or who cannot sing are still as much participants as those who are singing, praying, and at the altar.

By the way, I have enormous admiration for the consistency of the Jewish ethic in that equality of stature in their own modern worship tradition which carries over to the public square as well, and which is why there are so many Jewish women in public life. However, worship in Catholicism comes, as I say, from different assumptions which are more internal than external. And we do not proceed from secular assumptions of “participation” (which would in fact be that males and females are equal politically, in terms of franchise, governance, census count, etc.) and apply that definition to worship.

The spirituality of Catholicism is different from that of Judaism, and that spirituality is applicable to the conditions of worship.

Shalom, and thank you for your donation to Fordham
Elizabeth

 

[ColNY]

So, in other words, if you don’t get your way at the parish, you’re going to throw a petty little tantrum. The Church must conform to your personal wishes, or else you will withhold charitable offerings. Is that what you believe Christ taught?

Do you really believe that altar service is a “higher level” of worship. If so, you have an incredibly misinformed sense of what Catholic worship is.

Karen, first of all, go up and read Elizabeth’s great post (#663)

Secondly, I’ll ask you the same questions that I asked CoINY; How many men from your parish are in the seminary right now, and how many have been recently ordained from your parish?

You know what Brendan–it’s not a competition. We have about 400 families (maybe less) at our parish and up until 10 years ago–it WAS all male altar servers. And the only priest to ever come out of our parish was a 48 year man who didn’t hear his calling until he was in his early 40s–and for all I know, he may or may not have been an altar server, but he served as an EMHC with men AND women for several years–including me. He was just ordained last spring. Women and girls on the altar didn’t scare him off.

You seem to think the ONLY thing that inspires men to become priest is altar serving in a boys-only capacity and that allowing girls to serve is the ONLY reason vocations are down. I’m not sure where you’re located (I’m guessing not in the US), but I can assure you that in a lot of regions, the reasons WHY vocations are down are varied, but allowing girls a place on the altar is probably one of the least contributing factors, if one at all.

Now, if I may ask, what is the Catholic school situation like where you are and how involved are the clergy and religious in ensuring that not only do the parish schools remain open (vs. this “regional” push that has made these schools into public schools with a cross here and there), but to also have a strong presense in the school–not just at Mass, but during the school day? How many of them speak from the pulpit encouraging families to send their kids to these schools? How many of them look for ways to make the schools more affordable for ALL kids, vs. just those are either able to afford it or making sacrifices to do so? I think the decline in support for and the lack of affordability for Catholic schools has hurt vocations more than anything, other than perhaps the priest scandals. But rather than address that elephant in the room, nah…let’s blame the girls for scaring off the boys. .

 

[Brendan]

You know what Brendan–it’s not a competition

I never said that it was. As we determined from the Cardinal’s statements, the seeds of vocations are spread abundatly and everywhere.

What we need to do now is determine why those seeds are not growing in some places, but are in others.

. We have about 400 families (maybe less) at our parish and up until 10 years ago–it WAS all male altar servers.

We’re a parish of about 950 families. So a little over twice your size. So one might expect about half the vocations that we have.

And the only priest to ever come out of our parish was a 48 year man who didn’t hear his calling until he was in his early 40s–and for all I know, he may or may not have been an altar server, but he served as an EMHC with men AND women for several years–including me. He was just ordained last spring. Women and girls on the altar didn’t scare him off.

As I mentioned, we have 1-2 each year for the last 10 years. And what we should be worried about is not scaring anyone off, but making altar service as attractive as possible for young boys.

You seem to think the ONLY thing that inspires men to become priest is altar serving in a boys-only capacity and that allowing girls to serve is the ONLY reason vocations are down

.

That only proves you have not read the thread. What I have stated is that altar service is one of the few areas in encouraging vocations that a pastor has control over. Therefore, the pastor should use every means AT his disposal to encourage vocations. That means altar BOYS.

I’m not sure where you’re located (I’m guessing not in the US), but I can assure you that in a lot of regions, the reasons WHY vocations are down are varied, but allowing girls a place on the altar is probably one of the least contributing factors, if one at all.

If you look in the upper right of each person’s posts. It shows their location as indicated in their profile. I live in the Metro Detroit area.

Now, if I may ask, what is the Catholic school situation like where you are and how involved are the clergy and religious in ensuring that not only do the parish schools remain open (vs. this “regional” push that has made these schools into public schools with a cross here and there), but to also have a strong presense in the school–not just at Mass, but during the school day?

We do not have a school attached or assoicated with our parish. Nor is there one within easy comuting distance for most of the families. There is a school about 10 miles away that is part of another parish. a few parents sent their kids there… Most of the kids go to the local public schools, with some homeschool familes.

Of the two that were ordained this year, one went to that Catholic elementary school and then public high school. The other was public school for the duration.

As for clergyt, we have had a single priest and two deacons at our parish, though recently, we were granted an associate pastor. There are no convents nearby nor any women religous assigned to the parish.

How many of them speak from the pulpit encouraging families to send their kids to these schools? How many of them look for ways to make the schools more affordable for ALL kids, vs. just those are either able to afford it or making sacrifices to do so? I think the decline in support for and the lack of affordability for Catholic schools has hurt vocations more than anything, other than perhaps the priest scandals. But rather than address that elephant in the room, nah…let’s blame the girls for scaring off the boys. .

I have never heard any of our clergy address schooling options from the pulpit (or anywhere else), that includes the Catholic school at the next parish, public schools or homeschooling.

Rather, what I see the pastor doing was making altar service very attractive to boys, so much so that the younger boys wait with great anticipation to be asked to join. He has encouraged a great sense of comeraderie amongst the boys and a positive environement where the boys learn from each other. He has opened roles to the older boys, such as Lectoring at Mass so that high school boys ‘compete’ with each other for the chance to Lector. The older boys are also taught very complex tasks such as turning the pages for the priest.

In other words, they all desire to emulate the older boys, and eventually, the priest.

THAT breeds vocations.

 

[ColNY]

I never said that it was. As we determined from the Cardinal’s statements, the seeds of vocations are spread abundatly and everywhere.

What we need to do now is determine why those seeds are not growing in some places, but are in others.

We’re a parish of about 950 families. So a little over twice your size. So one might expect about half the vocations that we have.

So it’s not a competition–it’s a quota.

As I mentioned, we have 1-2 each year for the last 10 years. And what we should be worried about is not scaring anyone off, but making altar service as attractive as possible for young boys.

.

That only proves you have not read the thread. What I have stated is that altar service is one of the few areas in encouraging vocations that a pastor has control over. Therefore, the pastor should use every means AT his disposal to encourage vocations. That means altar BOYS.

If you look in the upper right of each person’s posts. It shows their location as indicated in their profile. I live in the Metro Detroit area.

Not everyone’s. Mine doesn’t show.

We do not have a school attached or assoicated with our parish. Nor is there one within easy comuting distance for most of the families. There is a school about 10 miles away that is part of another parish. a few parents sent their kids there… Most of the kids go to the local public schools, with some homeschool familes.

Of the two that were ordained this year, one went to that Catholic elementary school and then public high school. The other was public school for the duration.

As for clergyt, we have had a single priest and two deacons at our parish, though recently, we were granted an associate pastor. There are no convents nearby nor any women religous assigned to the parish.

I have never heard any of our clergy address schooling options from the pulpit (or anywhere else), that includes the Catholic school at the next parish, public schools or homeschooling.

*Our new clergy does. . we have a parish school. 75% of altar servers–boys and girls (and I want to add—more boys, none of whom are deterred by the girls, just that’s who signs up) come from our school. *

Rather, what I see the pastor doing was making altar service very attractive to boys, so much so that the younger boys wait with great anticipation to be asked to join. He has encouraged a great sense of comeraderie amongst the boys and a positive environement where the boys learn from each other. He has opened roles to the older boys, such as Lectoring at Mass so that high school boys ‘compete’ with each other for the chance to Lector. The older boys are also taught very complex tasks such as turning the pages for the priest.

In other words, they all desire to emulate the older boys, and eventually, the priest.

THAT breeds vocations.

Or, that breeds the notion of it being an “old boys club.”

Answer me this: WHAT do you have to encourage the girls/young women in your faith–be it towards religious life or just continued participation in the faith? What are the girls “allowed” to do? How many families with girls still go to your church? I’d be curious to see… . . seems to me, all you’re concerned about is breeding priests in your parish. Tell me–what is your parish doing to make faith accessible to ALL? Or are you just taking lessons from the other predominant faith in the Detroit area and how they regard women?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Or, that breeds the notion of it being an “old boys club.”

Answer me this: WHAT do you have to encourage the girls/young women in your faith–be it towards religious life or just continued participation in the faith? What are the girls “allowed” to do? How many families with girls still go to your church? I’d be curious to see… . . seems to me, all you’re concerned about is breeding priests in your parish. Tell me–what is your parish doing to make faith accessible to ALL? Or are you just taking lessons from the other predominant faith in the Detroit area and how they regard women?

Lololololololol. Are you implying that families with daughters refuse to go to the church because it doesn’t allow altar girls? What’s wrong with encouraging (not breeding, nasty term) new priests? That should be one of the main focuses of any parish, right? And isn’t the mass itself accessible to all? There’s no rules as to who can attend and who can’t, anywhere. Why does everyone have to have something to do to feel “included?” Like I’ve said before, mass isn’t school field day. I had to come to Brendan’s defense on this one.

I think you’re extremely misguided, CoINY, in many ways. You think having an exclusively male altar service group is to instill a sense of it being a “good ol’ boys’ club.” That’s an extremely terrible, uncharitable assumption about the priest’s intentions. I seriously doubt any priest has this attitude. I think you just want it to be so, so you will have a reason to support your argument.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Or, that breeds the notion of it being an “old boys club.”

That is not only unfair, it is a thorough mischaracterizatoin of Brendan’s point of view as readable in this thread.

WHAT do you have to encourage the girls/young women in your faith–be it towards religious lifeor just continued participation in the faith? What are the girls “allowed” to do?

Why would you think that Brendan’s parish is any less “encouraging” of women in non-clerical roles than every other parish is? Do you believe that girls in his parish are not “allowed” to do everything except seminary and altar service – both of which are tied to the male ministerial priesthood? Or is your anger actually directed toward the all-male nature of that priesthood?

How many families with girls still go to your church?

Everyone, raise your hand if virtually all parish activities (except Men’s Clubs) are not dominated by women, including prayer groups, retreats, bible study, faith formation, adoration attendance, daily Mass attendance, and even lectoring.

Even in the ultra-traditional parish near me which allows only male altar servers, Daily Mass, Adoration & Benediction, retreats, and lectoring, are anywhere between 95% and 100% female, depending on the occasion. And my understanding is that this pattern is widespread throughout the Catholic Church in the U.S.

Tell me–what is your parish doing to make faith accessible to ALL?

:banghead:
Raise your hand, everyone, if your pastor does not have to resort to practically begging the entire laity to attend anything offered in the parish, or that even if he wanted to, your pastor would ever be in a practical position to “discourage” female attendance.

For your information, the priesthood (and in some parishes, altar serving because it is viewed as visibly linked to priesthood) is the only segregated function in the Roman Church. (What Church are you a member of, again? )

 

[rlg94086]

Everyone, raise your hand if virtually all parish activities (except Men’s Clubs) are not dominated by women, including prayer groups, retreats, bible study, faith formation, adoration attendance, daily Mass attendance, and even lectoring.

Raise your hand, everyone, if your pastor does not have to resort to practically begging the entire laity to attend anything offered in the parish, or that even if he wanted to, your pastor would ever be in a practical position to “discourage” female attendance.

For your information, the priesthood (and in some parishes, altar serving because it is viewed as visibly linked to priesthood) is the only segregated function in the Roman Church. (What Church are you a member of, again? )

 

[Elizabeth502]

Robert, were those two waves equivalent to hand-raises affirming a lack of female domination of parish participation?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Wow…I can’t believe this thread is still going on… We can debate all we want on if its a good idea or not to have all male altar servers. Doesn’t matter as the priest has a right to decide. The rest of it is just flapping our gums in the wind. You are allowed to disagree- as I have earlier in the thread however since Rome has given priest this right we have to accept it.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Wow…I can’t believe this thread is still going on… We can debate all we want on if its a good idea or not to have all male altar servers. Doesn’t matter as the priest has a right to decide. The rest of it is just flapping our gums in the wind. You are allowed to disagree- as I have earlier in the thread however since Rome has given priest this right we have to accept it.

Right. Which means we also have to ‘accept’ if the bishop or an individual priest does NOT permit female altar servers. (Such as the diocese of Arlington VA in addition to Phoenix I believe.)

That’s why Karen, above, who says that she ‘won’t support financially’ a priest or bishop who DOESN’T allow female altar servers is as wrong in her viewpoint as somebody who says that he (or she) won’t support financially a priest or bishop who DOES allow female servers.