please explain TULIP and then Catholic disagreements

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theogrit said:
:grouphug:
Hell is indeed a saddening and disturbing concept, but the last time I checked the Catholic Church embraces the Scripture doctrine of Hell and eternal torment every bit as much as churches of the Reformation. It is not lost on this poster that God is love, and that Christians are to be known by their great love, but the teachings of Jesus himself are the single greatest source for the Christian doctrine of Hell and eternal torment, and the complete holiness and goodness of God which transcends our human frailties is perhaps the most distinctive attribute raising Christianity above the other world religions where such holiness and personal salvation to fellowship with our Creator is lost. It is why we have a crucified and risen LORD. :hug1:
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Well said… Christ and Him crucified… the love of God and the justice of God in amazing harmony.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Regarding TULIP:

Unconditional atonement is clearly contradicted by scripture.

Limited atonement is contradicted by scripture as you can see from the verses above.

Irresistible grace is contradicted by scripture, as evidenced by those who reject God’s grace.

Perseverence of the states is contradicted by scripture which warns us of the dangers of leaving the faith.
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Since the Catholic Church allows a very broad view of predestination, do you mind sharing your personal view of the biblical doctrine of predestination?
 
theogrit said:
:grouphug:
Hell is indeed a saddening and disturbing concept, but the last time I checked the Catholic Church embraces the Scripture doctrine of Hell and eternal torment every bit as much as churches of the Reformation. It is not lost on this poster that God is love, and that Christians are to be known by their great love, but the teachings of Jesus himself are the single greatest source for the Christian doctrine of Hell and eternal torment, and the complete holiness and goodness of God which transcends our human frailties is perhaps the most distinctive attribute raising Christianity above the other world religions where such holiness and personal salvation to fellowship with our Creator is lost. It is why we have a crucified and risen LORD. :hug1:
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This [present] discussion is not about whether or not hell exists. It is about the belief that God created you to go to hell.
 
theogrit said:
:grouphug:

The Calvinist’s God is the same God who said, “Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.” (1 Sam. 15:3, NAB); and also says, “Come to me heedfully, listen, that you may have life. I will renew with you the everlasting covenant, the benefits assured to David.”(Isa. 55:3, NAB), and, “I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep.” (John 10:14-15, NAB); and of whom it is said, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” (John 3:16, NAB).
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The Righteousness of God Through Faith

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
 
theogrit said:
:grouphug:
Hell is indeed a saddening and disturbing concept, but the last time I checked the Catholic Church embraces the Scripture doctrine of Hell and eternal torment every bit as much as churches of the Reformation. It is not lost on this poster that God is love, and that Christians are to be known by their great love, but the teachings of Jesus himself are the single greatest source for the Christian doctrine of Hell and eternal torment, and the complete holiness and goodness of God which transcends our human frailties is perhaps the most distinctive attribute raising Christianity above the other world religions where such holiness and personal salvation to fellowship with our Creator is lost. It is why we have a crucified and risen LORD. :hug1:
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Welcome to the forum Theogrit.
In my journey across the Tiber I spent some tme among Reformed Baptists. So, I am familiar with Calvinism and the TULIP. One of the problem areas I have had with RBs was an almost denial of the love of God, and this did disturb me at the time. The tragedy of extreme Calvinism, and to a lesser extent fundamentalism, is their rejection of a God of love.
I am not saying ALL Calvinists are like this.
We can become so consumned in our theologies, God becomes an unapproachable Deity who has a cold “relationship” with His creatures. I am happy to see you are one that has not allowed that to happen.
👍
 
2nd_Adam said:
Since the Catholic Church allows a very broad view of predestination, do you mind sharing your personal view of the biblical doctrine of predestination?
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God knows who will accept and persevere in his grace.

Those who accept his grace and persevere are predestined to heaven.
 
Concerning the ‘Limited Atonment’ part of the TULIP.
Calvinists believe the atonement is limited for some men but not for all. They claim Christ died only for the elect. To prove this they cite verses which seem to indicate that.
But the Bible states that Christ died for all men. John 4:42 describes Christ as “the Savior of the world,” and 1 John 2:2 states that Christ “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” 1 Timothy 4:10 describes God as “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” To split hairs and say “world” doesn’t really mean “world” is simply intellectual dishonesty.
In going to the cross, Christ intended to make salvation possible for all men, but he did not intend to make salvation actual for all men, otherwise we would have to say that Christ went to the cross intending that all men would end up in heaven. This is clearly not the case. God does desire the salvation of all men. 1 Timothy 2:4 states God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
It is indeed true that God knows who will go to heaven and who will not. God’s omniscience does not interfere with human free will to choose. God knows what our ultimate choice for heaven or hell will be but he does not determine that choice. Our choices are our own.
There are many things about the TULIP I agree with, but overall, much of it simply makes little Biblical sense.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
God knows who will accept and persevere in his grace.

Those who accept his grace and persevere are predestined to heaven.
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I think when you have a correct understanding what Calvinists believe about predestination (positive-negative view), you will find out that Thomist Catholics have more in common with Calvinists than they have with you on these issues. I think you line up very well with Arminian Protestants.
The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith.
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But, there is no official teaching on how exactly this comes into play. There are numerous theological schools of thought on the matter, the two major ones being the Thomists and the Molinists. I tend to subscribe to the former. The latter is closer to the Arminian position.
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Any theological position on election, however, must conform with the Church’s soteriological teachings. Molinism, Thomism, and Arminianism all conform, Calvinism does not. To conform, your theology must accept the following:
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  1. Free will; that is, God allows people to choose him, and allows them to reject them. People always have the option. Thus election, if you believe it, must be an act of persuasion and not compulsion.
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  1. Co-operation; it is necessary for salvation for a man to cooperate with God’s grace. Man must continuously allow God’s grace to work in him. If at any point a man prevents this, he falls from grace.
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  1. Jesus died for all men, and his sacrifice has the potential of saving all, but his act did not automatically save anyone, only those who choose to accept him.
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  1. Man is born in a state of sin, and must be called by God in order to accept Him and thus receive the merits of Christ’s sacrifice.
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  1. God predestines no one to Hell. i.e. you can only believe in negative reprobation, not positive.
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There are, of course, many other teachings on salvation, but these are the main ones. Thomism, unlike Calvinism, accepts all of them. The main difference between the various schools of thought is how the calling grace of point 4 get dispensed, and its effects. Thomists maintain that God does not bestow it on everyone, while Molinists maintain that he does.
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catholicsource.net/Predestination.html
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2nd_Adam said:
I think what you have an understanding what Calvinists believe about predestination (positive-negative view), you will find out that Thomist Catholics have more in common with Calvinists than you do.
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That is true.

Both views are acceptable for Catholics, but Calvinism is not acceptable.

I believe that my view is much more consistent with the Catechism than the view of Thomists.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
What do limited atonement and unconditional election mean if not that God created some men for Hell?
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Everybody believes in a version of limited atonement. If you don’t believe the atonement was limited in some form, then you are a Universalist. We all agree that the atonement of Christ is sufficent and powerful enough to atone for the sins of each and every human being, as well as the fallen angels. However, we know that the atonement of Jesus Christ was not designed to save Satan and the fallen Angels. We also know the Elect Angels will dwell with God forever and forever.
 
theogrit said:
Ah, so it’s not about Calvinism and TULIP then. 👍
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John Calvin wrote this, (I paraphrase);
We say that God determined those whom it was his desire to doom to destruction.

To make it even simpler;

God created people for hell.
 
Thing said:
John Calvin wrote this, (I paraphrase);
We say that God determined those whom it was his desire to doom to destruction.

To make it even simpler;

God created people for hell.
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All Christians should wrestle with the Scirptures. Please read Romans chapter 9 and get back to us.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Everybody believes in a version of limited atonement. If you don’t believe the atonement was limited in some form, then you are a Universalist. We all agree that the atonement of Christ is sufficent and powerful enough to atone for the sins of each and every human being, as well as the fallen angels. However, we know that the atonement of Jesus Christ was not designed to save Satan and the fallen Angels. We also know the Elect Angels will dwell with God forever and forever.
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The atonement is limited by our decisions, not by divine decree.

God wants all of us to choose to cooperate with his grace, but he doesn’t force us to cooperate.

The death of Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
That is true.

Both views are acceptable for Catholics, but Calvinism is not acceptable.

I believe that my view is much more consistent with the Catechism than the view of Thomists.
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Thomists can almost be Calvinist Catholics.

You can almost be an Arminian Catholic (in a nice way).
 
2nd_Adam said:
Thomists can almost be Calvinist Catholics.

You can almost be an Arminian Catholic (in a nice way).
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I agree.

But Calvinism is outside the permissible bounds of Catholic teaching.

Calvinism denies God’s love for his creation.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
The atonement is limited by our decisions, not by divine decree.

God wants all of us to choose to cooperate with his grace, but he doesn’t force us to cooperate.

The death of Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world.
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Slow down my friend… do you believe unbelief in Christ is a sin in which Christ atoned for?
 
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