please explain TULIP and then Catholic disagreements

[2nd_Adam]

I agree.

But Calvinism is outside the permissible bounds of Catholic teaching.

Calvinism denies God’s love for his creation.

On the contrary, Calvinism magnifies the love of God to the praise of His glorious grace manifested in the life and death of His dear beloved Son. The amazing love of God…

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - rom 5

 

[theogrit]

What do limited atonement and unconditional election mean if not that God created some men for Hell?

:hug3: I’ve held to the Biblical teachings presented in Calvin’s discourse of Scripture all my life, and absolutely nowhere in the Bible’s accounts of the creation of man, nor in Calvin’s expositions on them, nor in any explanation of TULIP from Calvinist’s do I find this concept of God creating some men for Hell.

“Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.” God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them, saying: “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth.” God also said: “See, I give you every seed-bearing plant all over the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food; and to all the animals of the land, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the ground, I give all the green plants for food.” And so it happened. God looked at everything he had made, and he found it very good. Evening came, and morning followed–the sixth day.” (Gen 1: 26-31, NAB, bolding is mine)

"the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being. "
“So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.” That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body. The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.” (Gen. 2:7, 21-25, NAB)

note: Chesterton’s great, by the way.

 

[Thing]

All Christians should wrestle with the Scirptures. Please read Romans chapter 9 and get back to us.

Ditto…

Do you agree with Calvin’s quote or not?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Do you agree with Calvin’s quote or not?

Like everything, I would have to read his quote in a much larger context to answer your question. I’ve read the Institutes by Calvin as well as a very good book on Calvin’s view on the atonement. Do I believe Calvin was a gift to the church? Yes very much so!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

On the contrary, Calvinism magnifies the love of God to the praise of His glorious grace manifested in the life and death of His dear beloved Son. The amazing love of God…

Calvinists believe that God hates some men and condemns them for no other reason than original sin, which they had nothing to do with.

 

[bookgirl32]

Since the Catholic Church allows a very broad view of predestination, do you mind sharing your personal view of the biblical doctrine of predestination?

2nd, instead of posting a quote, can you explain in your own words what you perceive this “very broad view” to be? Not who it’s similar to, but exactly what you yourself believe it to be from what you’ve been told or what you’ve studied?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

:hug3: I’ve held to the Biblical teachings presented in Calvin’s discourse of Scripture all my life, and absolutely nowhere in the Bible’s accounts of the creation of man, nor in Calvin’s expositions on them, nor in any explanation of TULIP from Calvinist’s do I find this concept of God creating some men for Hell.

:

That may be true, but you didn’t answer my question:

What do limited atonement and unconditional election mean if not that God created some men for Hell?

More specifically, if God limited his bestowal of grace, ie. atonement, and if those who are elect were chosen by God, then by default he created some men for hell.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Slow down my friend… do you believe unbelief in Christ is a sin in which Christ atoned for?

Belief is a gift that any man can ask for and receive from God.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Calvinists believe that God hates some men and condemns them for no other reason than original sin, which they had nothing to do with.

That statement is as emotionally silly and incorrect in the same way that some Protestants say that Catholics worship Mary.

 

[tweetymom]

Calvinists believe that God hates some men and condemns them for no other reason than original sin, which they had nothing to do with.

They do???

 

[Thing]

:hug3: I’ve held to the Biblical teachings presented in Calvin’s discourse of Scripture all my life, and absolutely nowhere in the Bible’s accounts of the creation of man, nor in Calvin’s expositions on them, nor in any explanation of TULIP from Calvinist’s do I find this concept of God creating some men for Hell.

Well, you’re right. Calvinists believe he created probably most people for hell, not just some, when:

He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd, instead of posting a quote, can you explain in your own words what you perceive this “very broad view” to be? Not who it’s similar to, but exactly what you yourself believe it to be from what you’ve been told or what you’ve studied?

Did you read the Catholic post on predestination? The two major Catholic views are as contradictory as Arminian Protestant theology and Calvinist Protestant theology. The Thomist believe that necessary grace for Heaven is only given to the Elect (my own words).

 

[Thing]

Like everything, I would have to read his quote in a much larger context to answer your question. I’ve read the Institutes by Calvin as well as a very good book on Calvin’s view on the atonement. Do I believe Calvin was a gift to the church? Yes very much so!

You mean you wish to make it more complicated?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That statement is as emotionally silly and incorrect in the same way that some Protestants say that Catholics worship Mary.

Some Catholics do worship Mary, unfortunately, but they are in error and are violating Catholic dogma.

Please tell me why this is inconsistent with Calvinist dogma:

Calvinists believe that God hates some men and condemns them for no other reason than original sin, which they had nothing to do with.

 

[2nd_Adam]

That may be true, but you didn’t answer my question:

What do limited atonement and unconditional election mean if not that God created some men for Hell?

More specifically, if God limited his bestowal of grace, ie. atonement, and if those who are elect were chosen by God, then by default he created some men for hell.

From my perspective and supported by Romans 5, we actually only have three people in redemptive history. We have Adam and Eve, and we have the 2nd Adam. All humanity is either in Adam or in the 2nd Adam. In God’s love, God rescues sinners from Adam and unites them to the 2nd Adam (Christ). Why doesn’t God move all from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His Son? Well, that is part of our conversation.

Double predestination cannot be ignored by both Catholics and Protestants alike. Does God simply pass over the retrobate, allowing them to live out their lives as they freely choose? If left to our own free will, all will perish due to our fallen nature. Catholics and Protestant understand the necessity of underserving grace to move us toward God. The Thomist Catholics have to respond to your questions that you posted too.

 

[2nd_Adam]

From my perspective and supported by Romans 5, we actually only have three people in redemptive history. We have Adam and Eve, and we have the 2nd Adam. All humanity is either in Adam or in the 2nd Adam. In God’s love, God rescues sinners from Adam and unites them to the 2nd Adam (Christ). Why doesn’t God move all from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His Son? Well, that is part of our conversation. Double predestination cannot be ignored by both Catholics and Protestants alike. Does God simply pass over the retrobate, allowing them to live out there lives as they freely choose?

 

[bookgirl32]

Did you read the Catholic post on predestination? The two major Catholic views are as contradictory as Arminian Protestant theology and Calvinist Protestant theology. The Thomist believe that necessary grace for Heaven is only given to the Elect (my own words).

But do you believe that the Thomist view, allowed by the Church, claims that God predestined some to Hell?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

They do???

Yes:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.

calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

From my perspective and supported by Romans 5, we actually only have three people in redemptive history. We have Adam and Eve, and we have the 2nd Adam. All humanity is either in Adam or in the 2nd Adam. In God’s love, God rescues sinners from Adam and unites them to the 2nd Adam (Christ). Why doesn’t God move all from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His Son? Well, that is part of our conversation.

Double predestination cannot be ignored by both Catholics and Protestants alike. Does God simply pass over the retrobate, allowing them to live out their lives as they freely choose? If left to our own free will, all will perish due to our fallen nature. Catholics and Protestant understand the necessity of underserving grace to move us toward God.

Catholics believe God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth.

Calvinists don’t.

To quote Augustine:

Without God, we can’t.

Without Us, God won’t.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Calvinists believe that God hates some men and condemns them for no other reason than original sin, which they had nothing to do with.

That statement is as emotionally silly and incorrect in the same way that some Protestants say that Catholics worship Mary.

The Calvinistic doctrine of predestination is a doctrine of Calvinism which deals with the question of the control God exercises over the world. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, God “freely and unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass.”[1] The second use of the word “predestination” applies this to the salvation, and refers to the belief that God appointed the eternal destiny of some to salvation by grace, while leaving the remainder to receive eternal damnation for all their sins, even their original sin.

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1643) says:
God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death. … (Chap. III — Articles I, III, VI and VII)

Calvinistic predestination is sometimes referred to as “double predestination.”[2] This is the view that God chose who would go to heaven, and who** to hell**, and that his decision is infallibly to come to pass. This point of view simultaneously denies that God is the Author of Evil, but the issue is a very difficult point of the doctrine of predestination. The difference between elect and reprobate is not in themselves, all being equally unworthy, but in God’s sovereign decision to show mercy to some, to save some and not others. It is called double predestination because it holds that God chose both whom to save and whom to damn, as opposed to single predestination which contends that though he chose whom to save, he did not choose whom to damn.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_%28Calvinism%29