Police: Approximately 20 dead inside Florida nightclub after mass shooting

[Ridgerunner]

Trump is already a master politician. All he has to do is plant the seed of doubt in people’s minds concerning Obama’s and Hillary Clinton’s intentions, and he can divert criticism from himself onto Hillary.

By his actions, Obama seems to believe that all popular revolutionary movements are good as long as they are “indigenous”. Otherwise, his support of the Muslim Brotherhood makes no sense at all, since it’s very anti-western and gave birth to both Al Quaeda and ISIS, and wants to abrogate the peace treaty with Israel.

Now, possibly Trump was saying Obama “is a Muslim” or sympathizes with Islam. But it’s also possible he is simply saying Obama has a way of backing the wrong horse and for reasons people would not approve if Obama was honest about it.

If Obama and Clinton aren’t just incredibly incompetent, then there has to be some other explanation of their consistently doing the wrong thing in the Islamic world.

 

[shockerfan]

No, I’m not. And I’m not sure why it seems to be such a controversial idea that we need to make sure that we don’t start focusing on more their acts than their religion.

This is why:

pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2016/06/12/orlando-night-club-attack-by-known-wolf-terrorist-previously-investigated-by-fbi/

If it were merely words, it would be one thing, however, radical Islamists believe they will be martyrs dying while killing infidels.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Is ISIS here or is this a lone wolf like Dylan Roof or Robert Dear who claimed to be ISIS?

According to Salafist doctrine, you’re a member of the Caliphate if you’re a “true Muslim”. There is no formal membership initiation requirement. They use organized cells to do attacks but will accept attacks from lone wolves who swear allegiance to ISIS. If you say you’re ISIS, you’re ISIS.

He did make two trips to Saudi Arabia in 2011 and 2012, apparently to make haj to Mecca. ((Source: nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-cool-calm-during-negotiations-n590906)

There are also statements that he made violent racist and anti-gay comments to co-workers, but that his employers refused to do anything about the complaints because they were afraid of appearing Islamophobic.
(Source: floridatoday.com/story/news/crime/2016/06/12/who-omar-mateen/85791280/

 

[Crossbones]

Under the conditions that you specify, I believe that 1) armed patrons would have eventually taken the shooter out; 2) that there would likely (but not necessarily) have been friendly fire casualties; and, 3) the overall number of casualties would have been considerably lower. The last point is the most important.

I doubt that any patron being armed would have made a difference in this case. After all, the assailant was heavily armed (not all arms are equal) and it would have been very difficult to ascertain what is going on. It is worth remembering that, during the Oregon Community College shooting, there were armed veterans who made a decision that they couldn’t help:

"“Veterans are trained, be it Air Force, Navy, Marines, or Army. We’re trained to go into danger, not just run away from it. If there was something we were able to do, we were going to try to do it. Luckily we made the choice not to get involved. We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. Not knowing where SWAT was on the their response time, they wouldn’t know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot they could think we were the bad guys.”

 

[Thorolfr]

It is political correctness when people ignore the motive of his crime. It is political correctness when right after a man driven by extreme ideology commits a horrible crime, and immediately people write columns about how Christianity is to blame, or that guns are to blame, basically mention any other possible motive than his ideology, simply because that ideology is radical Islam.

No one knows for sure what the motive for his crime was since we can’t ask him. All we’ve got is speculation.

I also don’t buy the distinction that some people are making between an ideology of “radical Islam” for this crime as opposed to just plain old hatred for gay people, a hatred and a prejudice that is not specifically Islamic and is shared by a lot of people of many other faiths and even of no faith at all.

 

[mikekle]

I don’t think I agree with you. He was able to do as much damage as he did because he had an AR-15 rifle with high capacity clips. If he couldn’t get that, it may not have prevented the tragedy, but it may have lessened it significantly. Furthermore, he may have been caught trying to obtain the weapon and not had the chance to commit the murders.

I do not agree, its clear this guy was a criminal, he killed 50+ people, what makes anyone think he would abide by any new gun laws if they were in place? If someone has an attack planned, they WILL find a way to get a gun, they are not going to be thwarted by some gun law, and just give up. Generally the only people that will abide by new laws are non-criminals, or law-abiding citizens.

So if they enact a new law tomorrow, ALL assault rifles are now illegal to even possess…would this make any difference? There are already countless of them out there in the public,(some registered, some not) how do you go about managing that? Heroin has also been illegal to buy or possess, but that has not changed the fact that it can still be purchased in every single city in the country. the suppliers still manage to get their product to all the destinations, and this is consistent, despite all the very tough new laws on heroin, it is only getting easier to obtain…???

 

[lemongrass80]

Under the conditions that you specify, I believe that 1) armed patrons would have eventually taken the shooter out; 2) that there would likely (but not necessarily) have been friendly fire casualties; and, 3) the overall number of casualties would have been considerably lower. The last point is the most important.

How many lives are saved every year by citizens armed with guns, vs how many lives are lost by improper handling of guns?

If you think having a bunch of armed citizens in a dark and loud nightclub where there is drinking would have made people safer, well I dont even know how to address that line of thinking because it’s completely out to lunch.

 

[Crossbones]

According to Salafist doctrine, you’re a member of the Caliphate if you’re a “true Muslim”. There is no formal membership initiation requirement. They use organized cells to do attacks but will accept attacks from lone wolves who swear allegiance to ISIS. If you say you’re ISIS, you’re ISIS.

He did make two trips to Saudi Arabia in 2011 and 2012, apparently to make haj to Mecca. ((Source: nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-cool-calm-during-negotiations-n590906)

There are also statements that he made violent racist and anti-gay comments to co-workers, but that his employers refused to do anything about the complaints because they were afraid of appearing Islamophobic.
(Source: floridatoday.com/story/news/crime/2016/06/12/who-omar-mateen/85791280/

That’s pretty weak tea IMO. Saying you are a part of ISIS doesn’t make you part of ISIS in the organizational sense of them providing material support to help pull off this massacre.

Clearly, he was a Muslim (that’s what Muslims do, they go to Mecca), though many Muslims would argue that he did not follow the tenets of the faith.

So, a police officer said he was ‘unhinged and unstable’ and he was allowed to own AR-15 weapons and work as an armed security guard? That makes sense. This is looking more like a Sandy Hook deal where someone should have said this guy is nuts and shouldn’t be around weapons. I’m sorry, the more I learn about this fellow, the more I think he is just plain mentally ill and that religion had little to do with his thinking except giving him an excuse to act out his rage.

 

[gilliam]

There is no conclusive evidence that more guns make us safer.
There is no conclusive evidence that less guns make us safer.

 

[grotto]

Draw some other distraction out of the pot of Democrat talking points? Here’s a used one, “lone wolf” did it. Queen Hillary just ran that one out there.

We are sheep among wolves but there are a lot more than one. Obama is now saying that it appears that the shooter was influenced by personal decisions and there is no evidence that he was part of anything related to ISIS. He may have made a last minute decision to champion ISIS.

“At the end of the day” this is something we will have to grapple with".

BSBSBSBSBS - (caps key got stuck!)

 

[Crossbones]

I do not agree, its clear this guy was a criminal, he killed 50+ people, what makes anyone think he would abide by any new gun laws if they were in place? If someone has an attack planned, they WILL find a way to get a gun, they are not going to be thwarted by some gun law, and just give up. Generally the only people that will abide by new laws are non-criminals, or law-abiding citizens.

The killer might have been caught trying to obtain the illegal weapons. Or he might have had to use less lethal weapons. Or, he might have not done it at all.

So if they enact a new law tomorrow, ALL assault rifles are now illegal to even possess…would this make any difference? There are already countless of them out there in the public,(some registered, some not) how do you go about managing that? Heroin has also been illegal to buy or possess, but that has not changed the fact that it can still be purchased in every single city in the country.

Clearly, something is very broken in the US on firearms that won’t be fixed. I know that. The tree of liberty has to be refreshed with the blood of innocents so fools can pretend that they are the only thing stopping the US government from turning tyrannical.

 

[DaveBj]

I doubt that any patron being armed would have made a difference in this case. After all, the assailant was heavily armed (not all arms are equal) and it would have been very difficult to ascertain what is going on. It is worth remembering that, during the Oregon Community College shooting, there were armed veterans who made a decision that they couldn’t help:

"“Veterans are trained, be it Air Force, Navy, Marines, or Army. We’re trained to go into danger, not just run away from it. If there was something we were able to do, we were going to try to do it. Luckily we made the choice not to get involved. We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. Not knowing where SWAT was on the their response time, they wouldn’t know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot they could think we were the bad guys.”

It’s all speculation. I was asked for my take, and I gave it. Even in a night-club, not everyone is drinking; there are some who are still sober.

How many lives are saved every year by citizens armed with guns, vs how many lives are lost by improper handling of guns?

If you think having a bunch of armed citizens in a dark and loud nightclub where there is drinking would have made people safer, well I dont even know how to address that line of thinking because it’s completely out to lunch.

See above. If you don’t know how to address a particular line of thinking, then don’t address it, but there’s no need to get snotty.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I also don’t buy the distinction that some people are making between an ideology of “radical Islam” for this crime as opposed to just plain old hatred for gay people,

No but Obama stated extremism influence but without direct connection to Isis. However his hatred may also involve some behavior issues in the gay realm. No one knows right now.

 

[grotto]

Oh wait a minute - its all easy access to firearms. You wanna go after terrorists than we :whacky: must not have access to firearms.

 

[Crossbones]

Draw some other distraction out of the pot of Democrat talking points? Here’s a used one, “lone wolf” did it. Queen Hillary just ran that one out there.

We are sheep among wolves but there are a lot more than one. Obama is now saying that it appears that the shooter was influenced by personal decisions and there is no evidence that he was part of anything related to ISIS. He may have made a last minute decision to champion ISIS.

“At the end of the day” this is something we will have to grapple with".

BSBSBSBSBS - (caps key got stuck!)

I’m sorry that, looking at it objectively, that is the conclusion I come to. This fellow has more in common with Dylan Roof and Robert Dear than the Fort Hood murders.

 

[Crossbones]

It’s all speculation. I was asked for my take, and I gave it. Even in a night-club, not everyone is drinking; there are some who are still sober.

Oh, and you’re welcome to your take. I just disagree with it. I’ve been in non-life threatening situations where panic is occurring. It takes several seconds to sort out what is going on and, with the weapon this fellow had, any armed person who was close enough to make a difference sort out what was happening would be dead before figuring out what was happening.

 

[mikekle]

Draw some other distraction out of the pot of Democrat talking points? Here’s a used one, “lone wolf” did it. Queen Hillary just ran that one out there.

We are sheep among wolves but there are a lot more than one. Obama is now saying that it appears that the shooter was influenced by personal decisions and there is no evidence that he was part of anything related to ISIS. He may have made a last minute decision to champion ISIS.

“At the end of the day” this is something we will have to grapple with".

BSBSBSBSBS - (caps key got stuck!)

Yeah, lets see if Obama/ Hillary ‘politicize’ this event, I bet they will use it to further their gun control agenda.

Its getting tricky to even learn what the real news is anymore, too many people with agendas of their own, and the media at their beckon call to ‘spin’ it to fit that agenda.

 

[shockerfan]

No one knows for sure what the motive for his crime was since we can’t ask him. All we’ve got is speculation.

I also don’t buy the distinction that some people are making between an ideology of “radical Islam” for this crime as opposed to just plain old hatred for gay people, a hatred and a prejudice that is not specifically Islamic and is shared by a lot of people of many other faiths and even of no faith at all.

cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/

He pledge allegiance to ISIS prior to the shooting!

Quiz of the day: What ideology is the foundation of ISIS?

 

[grotto]

Obama says “I think you know what I think about it”. Gays and guns, we have to do some soul searching. " People say Obama doesn’t want to talk about terrorism".

Know what? This has been the most clear look at the mind of Obama as he babbles on that I have ever had the opportunity to view. IMO it clearly shows this man has NO depth or clarity in his thinking.

Please refrain from criticizing Trump for his plain speech - at least he makes good sense.

 

[estesbob]

Not for undocumented Hispanic and Asian immigrants who were born in this country, who have been deported continuously by the Obama administration, much more so than by the previous Bush administration. Civil liberties only for potential terrorists?

Thats not true-previously people turned away at the border were classified as returnees-The Obama administrations started counting these as “deportations” If one adds deportees and returnees of previous administrations he has the lowest rate of returnee/deportee of any President in recent histopry