Poll: U.S. Catholics want a younger, more liberal pope

[Lapey]

Except Lisa, some Christians don’t find it quite as incredibly clear as you do in the Gospels. They instead find Jesus speaking volumes for instance about the poor and the sick and the rich. But they find the word abortion no where. Let alone what civil law should be in this regard. Except they may see something about free will. They also may have seen in the OT a story about the difference in the severity of the penalty if a mother’s life is struck down compared to if the life of a fetus is lost. And they arrive at different positions than Catholics do as to fetuses and personhood rights and balancing the rights of women and the rights of the unborn in regard to civil law. The United Church of Christ for example is on record of being pro choice on this issue. There are other Christians who do not hold to the exact same POV of the Catholic Church on the issue. Some may allow limited choice to direct abortion. For instance if the woman’s health or own life is in jeopardy. Or in cases of rape or incest. And they don’t believe as you do that they personally favor abortion just because their POV on civil law is to allow some choice in the matter.

If they find no word on abortion they are looking around it. There is no disputing that abortion is killing innocent life. To say otherwise is just plain dishonest.

Again, get the sick and poor out of your mouth, this is happening and we could do more, agreed. Now move on.

They find no mention of the word abortion, weak, very weak. Do you find the word car in the bible? No, but yet you drive one every day I bet.

It is immaterial what other denominations speak of or believe, they hold fractions of truth. The Catholic Church is the whole truth. Jesus built one Church, the Catholic Church. There is no salvation outside of Her. All salvation flows through His Church.

You do have free will to accept this or reject this. This you and I can agree upon, you have free will to choose destruction. That path finds many who take it.

By the way, civil law truly has nothing to do with this conversation. God’s law says thou shall not kill. Simple.

 

[Lapey]

Well said.

Well said if you choose to be luke warm for Jesus, otherwise you will learn and follow His truth.

 

[october_baby]

God speaks of the unborn, but you choose to ignore them. Before you were formed in the womb He knew you. Let’s say we agree on the “Catholic Church can do more” comment. Now that is done, what’s next? Abortion, that’s what.

There are many scripture passages which call to mind the love God holds for the children; born and unborn. How can you simply dismiss the evil perpetrated on the unborn? No one will ever take you serious if you proclaim to care and love people but only those “who have already been born.”

Why is it you cannot talk in truth about this atrocity? Why is it you can say that others should care about the born but you will not even acknowledge there is a crisis in the unborn.

Tell me, who is more poor and hungry, homeless and naked than an unborn child whom its mother has chosen death? Will you not feed that person? Will you not clothe and house that little one as Jesus calls the little children?

No, this is not acceptable to get onto your soap box about taxing more of working people’s money to do what you are not willing to do with your own. It is not acceptable to say you care about one section of the population but totally ignore and not even acknowledge the other. This is sad and I am sad for you for superficial.

This is one of the reasons you left the Church, She did not chase you away, you ran from Her because you worship liberalism not God. Your religion is just that, liberalism. This is why you reject almost the entire teaching of the CCC on our consciences. The only part you read is how we must follow or risk condemning ourselves. You do realize obstinately following an erroneous conscience will also send you to condemnation.

:amen:

 

[Lapey]

Hmmm. One does wonder, though, about Mary Magdalen, who was a known prostitute.

Not really, she is thought to be a protitute, but this is not supported in scripture.

 

[october_baby]

Not really, she is thought to be a protitute, but this is not supported in scripture.

that’s right!

 

[Lapey]

Fantastic post. I wish more Catholics felt this way. The way some Catholics attack other Catholics as not being “catholic enough” is utterly disgusting to me and a reason why some have been driven away from the church.

Cane, its not about attacking its about correcting. There are one set of thruths, not yours and mine. They must match when it comes to faith and morrals. The Church staes what is right and must be followed, not us. We may have a legal right to choose something, but no right to not be in mortal sin if so chosen. Sorry but we cannot have our cake and eat it too.

 

[CMatt25]

CMatt, do you think if you stood before Christ and said “well ya know I’m not so sure that killing an unborn child is really murder and I helped out in a soup kitchen twice a year so it really doesn’t count does it?”

It’s your soul not mine CMatt so I hope someday your heart is changed.

Lisa

Lisa, I think I don’t know how God would judge my soul any more than you do. But forgive me if I trust in His infinite ability to understand my heart and my mind. To understand how I love Him and my neighbor. Even if you and others do not. I understand. I don’t understand everything about everyone here either. To trust He has the capability to understand where I live. In a nation of plural beliefs and how whether we like it or not, sometimes this may have to reflect civil law in being what it is in an imperfect world. And in our political views as they relate to civil law. In this temporary home of ours on what we call earth. In my case at least in the United States of America. To know this is not heaven on earth. In the meantime I strive to work out my salvation with a trembling heart. And if I shall stand before Him, my Savior, as an imperfect being, to trust in His mercy on me.

If by “hope” you mean you are praying for my soul, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. And since St James taught us to pray for another, I too can pray for you as well. Perhaps by faith, we can both share in His eternity and “chat” a bit or share a smile over the disagreements we had down her on earth on CAF. God bless you and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Fantastic post. I wish more Catholics felt this way. The way some Catholics attack other Catholics as not being “catholic enough” is utterly disgusting to me and a reason why some have been driven away from the church.

Exactly. And thank you.

 

[BackToTheRock]

Well said if you choose to be luke warm for Jesus, otherwise you will learn and follow His truth.

No; it really was well said.

 

[CMatt25]

Cane, its not about attacking its about correcting. There are one set of thruths, not yours and mine. They must match when it comes to faith and morrals. The Church staes what is right and must be followed, not us. We may have a legal right to choose something, but no right to not be in mortal sin if so chosen. Sorry but we cannot have our cake and eat it too.

In that case perhaps you can correct with equal tenacity those who Big Blue Cane referred to. About who is a Catholic and always will be according to what the Catholic Church states as Her answer. Perhaps too you understand my profile better after Big Blue Cane’s post since you seemed bothered by it earlier.

 

[LisaA]

Lisa, I think I don’t know how God would judge my soul any more than you do. But forgive me if I trust in His infinite ability to understand my heart and my mind. To understand how I love Him and my neighbor. Even if you and others do not. I understand. I don’t understand everything about everyone here either. To trust He has the capability to understand where I live. In a nation of plural beliefs and how whether we like it or not, sometimes this may have to reflect civil law in being what it is in an imperfect world. And in our political views as they relate to civil law. In this temporary home of ours on what we call earth. In my case at least in the United States of America. To know this is not heaven on earth. In the meantime I strive to work out my salvation with a trembling heart. And if I shall stand before Him, my Savior, as an imperfect being, to trust in His mercy on me.

If by “hope” you mean you are praying for my soul, I thank you from the bottom of my heart. And since St James taught us to pray for another, I too can pray for you as well. Perhaps by faith, we can both share in His eternity and “chat” a bit or share a smile over the disagreements we had down her on earth on CAF. God bless you and peace.

You are right, Jesus knows your heart and soul. All we know is what you say on this forum. You are continuously promoting abortion and excusing it as a legal act and then deflecting criticism by bringing up Christ’s teaching on the poor. However realize that “poor” means more than lacking in material needs. When Jesus speaks of the poor He means those who cannot defend themselves, the “least of these.” If you cannot see that He meant human beings in whatever stage of development or life, then you are ignoring the plain truth. If you cannot imagine that He refers to helpless unborn babies as poor, then you are reading far less into His words than are clear to the Church.

At any rate I truly hope that Jesus sees in your heart someone who claims to support abortion for whatever reason but truly is opposed to it. In that I hope His truth guides you to speak your mind on the subject and not keep up a facade of supporting the murder of the innocent. I cannot fathom why anyone would support this hideous practice but to claim you do when you know in your heart it’s wrong, well that’s even harder to understand.

Lisa

 

[CMatt25]

Listening to Fr.Robert Barron on the radio today.He mentioned that this is one of the reasons our newPontiff chose the name Frances.

I can’t resist the correction, Jeanne. But I know you have a sense of humor and it’s actually related to the topic. But I think you meant Francis. Otherwise Frances would be female.

Yes I was watching EWTN earlier tonight. They were discussing Pope Francis chose his name for Francis of Assisi. They mentioned rebuilding but also a few other reasons. One of which he went among the outcasts.

 

[dailey]

Oh pick and chose like a sweety shop ? well they can debate all they like, the Pope will have the final say !

Exactly!

 

[dailey]

youtube.com/user/ChurchMilitantTV/videos?view=0&flow=grid

Watch the Vortex episodes.

He is quite controversial…for some reason, many people on this forum do not like him or his message. Just a heads up.

God bless.

-Paul

Well I like him! He tells it like it is. No sugar coating. I find it refreshing compared to sooo many cafeteria catholics who just pick and choose what they want to believe…

 

[dailey]

Cane, its not about attacking its about correcting. There are one set of thruths, not yours and mine. They must match when it comes to faith and morrals. The Church staes what is right and must be followed, not us. We may have a legal right to choose something, but no right to not be in mortal sin if so chosen. Sorry but we cannot have our cake and eat it too.

You have worded it perfectly.

I am so tired of “catholics” who want to go against the churches teachings and then get defensive if you don’t agree with them. So, so, so tired of it…

 

[BackToTheRock]

Again, get the sick and poor out of your mouth, this is happening and we could do more, agreed. Now move on.

I’m going to assume that this level of exageration is being employed as a device to refocus attention on abortion on this insiders forum. That’s fine if that’s your intent and if you’re assuming everyone here has some knowledge of the considerable work the RCC does locally and around the world in regards to the sick and the poor. But please bear in mind that this sort of statement is heard by outsiders as aloofness towards the sick in poor.

I also think it’s counterproductive since you offered what I see as the most compelling lines for the Catholic position on this thread:

Tell me, who is more poor and hungry, homeless and naked than an unborn child whom its mother has chosen death? Will you not feed that person? Will you not clothe and house that little one as Jesus calls the little children?

This not only validates concern for those Jesus lists in Matthew 25 but also serves as a bridge, both “out” from the starting point of abortion to other issues of poverty and injustice and “in” from other issues of poverty and injustice to abortion.

 

[CMatt25]

You are right, Jesus knows your heart and soul. All we know is what you say on this forum. You are continuously promoting abortion and excusing it as a legal act and then deflecting criticism by bringing up Christ’s teaching on the poor. However realize that “poor” means more than lacking in material needs. When Jesus speaks of the poor He means those who cannot defend themselves, the “least of these.” If you cannot see that He meant human beings in whatever stage of development or life, then you are ignoring the plain truth. If you cannot imagine that He refers to helpless unborn babies as poor, then you are reading far less into His words than are clear to the Church.

At any rate I truly hope that Jesus sees in your heart someone who claims to support abortion for whatever reason but truly is opposed to it. In that I hope His truth guides you to speak your mind on the subject and not keep up a facade of supporting the murder of the innocent. I cannot fathom why anyone would support this hideous practice but to claim you do when you know in your heart it’s wrong, well that’s even harder to understand.

Lisa

Lisa, I say and claim no such thing. No where will you find me saying I support abortion. Or promoting my support for it. In fact I’m sure I have said the opposite. That if I were a woman, I personally *wouldn’t *have one. And how it is one of the most difficult issues. One which I have never taken lightly to this day and one which I have struggled with like no other. But as with many issues, I simply don’t see it as a black and white issue. And it is like none other. Balancing the rights of women with the rights of the unborn is not easy in a nation of plural beliefs and non belief. If it were, the issue would not be the conflict it is today. But I understand you and others have difficulty with how our Catholic Vice President has for example explained his political position too. I know though part of the difficulty stems from those who are anti choice in every circumstance thinking people who are for some choice, are pro abortion. But I know in the real world that is simply not the case. Ok I’m going to move on from our back and forth on abortion. It has never gotten us anywhere. Have a good night.

 

[CMatt25]

However realize that “poor” means more than lacking in material needs. When Jesus speaks of the poor He means those who cannot defend themselves, the “least of these.”

Lisa

Lisa, I’ll just add we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the poor. As I believe when I read Matt 25 Jesus is speaking of people who have been born and who are poor and hungry, thirsty, homeless, in need of clothing, sick without adequate health care, and He includes prisoners. Then explains if we serve those, we serve Him. In other words we love Him and our neighbor. And as He goes on to say in the chapter, shall be be righteous in His eyes for eternal life.

 

[Crude]

I know though part of the difficulty stems from those who are anti choice in every circumstance thinking people who are for some choice, are pro abortion.

Pro-death, not pro-choice. If you think that some men should be allowed to keep slaves, you are not ‘pro-choice’ on the grounds that you think some men should be allowed to choose whether or not to keep slaves. You are just pro-slavery, period.

And let’s be clear on what the pro-death faction is ‘pro’. They think that sometimes, it’s acceptable to kill an unborn child. In fact, very often they believe it’s completely acceptable to kill an unborn child, for any reason whatsoever.

Our pro-death vice president supports abortion on demand, at any time, for any reason. It is, for him, entirely black and white. It is, for many people, entirely black and white. The only time this becomes a ‘complicated issue’ is when someone is trying to defend their catholic credentials despite backing a political party’s draconian pro-death practices. In public.

And if anyone says “Well I personally oppose abortion…”, I have a simple question: will you say that women who procure abortions are immoral? In ANY Circumstance, are they immoral to do what they’re doing? Should they be condemned, or even face criminal penalties, for procuring them?

Or is the ‘black and white’ portion of things only in some hypothetical sense, but in a legal and practical sense, it’s very, very clear what the ‘right choice’ is?

But I know in the real world that is simply not the case. Ok I’m going to move on from our back and forth on abortion. It has never gotten us anywhere. Have a good night.

In the real world, abortion is legally available on demand in the US until the moment of birth, for any reason whatsoever. In the real world, it is considered verboten by many people to criticize a woman for aborting her child - in fact, proponents often are terrified of admitting they support abortion, so they avoid using the word whenever they can. They support ‘the right to choose’ (with ‘abortion’ lopped off the end), they support ‘reproductive rights’, they support ‘women’s rights’.

In the real world, except for extreme limit cases - rape, incest, life of the mother - most people instinctively know abortion is murder, a shameful blight. Many are capable of silencing this view for the sake of their political party, to the point where they back no restrictions on abortion. And those that do, should really stop pretending they’re wrestling emotionally with themselves on the issue, rather than blowing smoke.

 

[JamesCaruso]

In that case perhaps you can correct with equal tenacity those who Big Blue Cane referred to. About who is a Catholic and always will be according to what the Catholic Church states as Her answer. Perhaps too you understand my profile better after Big Blue Cane’s post since you seemed bothered by it earlier.

Dear CMatt25

I was looking at your Religion: **A Christianity that doesn’t exclude nor drives liberals away
**
I wish it was more explicit, because it is difficult to understand without knowing what you mean by liberals and what you mean by Christianity.

Christianity is a word used to describe many things. Christianity is used to describe a philosophy derived from the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Christianity is used to describe any of the hundreds of sects that embrace some of the teachings of Jesus Christ, each of them different in their doctrines than the other. In this definition, Christianity is not a religion, but many religions, Methodist, Episcopalian, Baptist, Assembly of God, Orthodox, and on and on.

But if you mean Christianity as a single religion, it can refer only to the Church established by Jesus Christ, now called the Roman Catholic Church, and given authority by Jesus to conserve and proclaim his teachings free from error until the end of time. Since you used the term Christianity under the category Religion, I will assume you mean the Roman Catholic Church, although you may have one of the many sects in mind, and if so, you should name it, or if a new creation your own, give it a name.

If by liberal you mean someone who is radical like Saint Francis, giving up all his wealth to serve God, becoming an itinerant preacher, serving the poor and needy, and being obedient to the Roman Catholic Church, then I cannot see the Church excluding them or driving them away, especially since they pledge their allegiance to the Church.

But if you mean someone who does not embrace all the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church in serious matters of faith and morals, then it’s not that the Church excludes them, it’s that they exclude themselves, and rather than being driven away by the Church, they themselves have abandoned the Church. Is this what you mean? The Church doesn’t mean to be unfriendly to anyone, but it is important that it keeps its teachings free from error, and that all its members subscribe to those teachings.

It makes dialogue easier if we know who each other is or claims to be. Me? I’m a Roman Catholic. I joined this Catholic Answers Forum to learn more about my Catholic Faith and to help others who want to know more about the Catholic Faith in so far as I am able.