Pope’s upcoming Apostolic Exhortation likely to call for increased liturgical solemni

[johnnykins]

mom2boyz:

I’ve been to masses in Spanish and Italian. While I was able to figure out where we were in the Mass, I did not understand any of it. For the most part I knew where we were based mostly on the “Catholic gymnastics,” for lack of a better word. So it wasn’t the words, it was the posture.

If I learn only the appropriate verbal responses, that doesn’t mean I understand what I am saying or what it means. It also doesn’t mean that those responses have any meaning to me. I can certainly parrot responses, but I’ve always been under the impression that spiritual things should require more than just parroting a response.

I’m not opposed to having designated Latin Masses. Fine, if it speaks better to your spirituality.

The word Dios mean less to me than the word God. When you use El Senor for God, I translate it to mean Mister. That is not a word that even comes close to having the same meaning that God has for me.

As for the fly swatter comment, that is just uncharitable. I’ve been hit by a fly swatter and it didn’t kill me. Could attending services where I can’t understand what is happening harm my relationship with God? Quite possible. I didn’t write the poem.

As far as claiming our religious heritage, let’s not just stop with Latin. We could have the Old Testament readings in Hebrew, the New Testament readings in Greek, the consecration of the Eucharist in Aramaic, the homily in the venacular, and the rest in Latin.

Folks have been clamoring for a return to Latin since the venacular was introduced. It appears to me that the language that is used is just an incidental to the actual Mass. So I guess when I can’t understand parts, I’ll just pull out my rosary or some other prayer book and pray words that actually have meaning to me. It seems like that was what my mom said they did during the Latin Mass anyway.

You could try reading the translation right there - which is what most people did. Some folks were illiterate - true - and hence the push for the vernacular. But, most Americans and westerners could and can read.

BTW your issue with Spanish is exactly why Latin makes so much sense - you won’t just happen upon a Mass in a language you don’t know. That, btw, was one of the reasons Latin was kept for so long.

 

[mike182d]

frommi:

And everything you just said is an OPINION, thats it.

What about my post is incorrect? Are you denying my definition of “holiness?” Are you denying my definition of “sacred?” If not, are you denying that the “sacred” is necessary for liturgical worship?

 

[frommi]

mike182d:

What about my post is incorrect? Are you denying my definition of “holiness?” Are you denying my definition of “sacred?” If not, are you denying that the “sacred” is necessary for liturgical worship?

I’m not denying it…I’m simply saying that the idea of sacredness and beauty is a relative thing…and your definition of it may not match the next persons.

Many people seem to long for Latin in the mass as a way to bring a different kind of beauty to it…as one who provides music for the mass, I think their are many different ways to provide beauty and holiness…it needs proper balance…thats all.

 

[mike182d]

frommi:

I’m not denying it…I’m simply saying that the idea of sacredness and beauty is a relative thing…and your definition of it may not match the next persons.

Many people seem to long for Latin in the mass as a way to bring a different kind of beauty to it…as one who provides music for the mass, I think their are many different ways to provide beauty and holiness…it needs proper balance…thats all.

Beauty is no more subjective than the source of all Beauty: God.

Certainly there are matters which are disputes over taste, but such discussions concern themselves with how a thing is perceived or received by the individuals. I, however, did not make such a claim. What I presented to you was not my subjective opinion, it was an objective rationale based upon reasoning and logic. I did not say that it is my preference, or this is how I feel, I said given “A” and “B” then necessarily “C.”

That’s not really opinion, that’s a logical argument, and it cannot merely be tossed aside as opinion without sufficient refutation. If I had said “Latin just sounds more holy to me,” then that would have been opinion.

This may seem like much ado about nothing, but believing that beauty is purely subjective is the very thing that has led us to some of the most horrendous, irreverent masses in the history of the Catholic Church. There can be no progress with this as a foundational premise for celebrating liturgy.

 

[jc-servant]

Latin was the language of trade and commerce and the oppressive Roman empire during the time of Jesus’s life. Was it more sacred and holy than Aramaic or Greek? No. It was just more “common.” It is not a common tongue now in any country in the form that the church used to use. It was adopted for the convenience of the people in communicating across borders many hundreds of years ago, but it would not provide the same service now. I know some people have a nostalgia for Latin and some other things from older days and I hope they get to respectfully worship in the manner that brings them the closest to God, but I pray for the same for everyone else as well. We know that the liturgy was not always the Tridentine Mass or in Latin and I don’t think that is the only “correct” way to celebrate the liturgy. One poster commented on music that was written in Latin specifically for the liturgy. Lots of beautiful music is still being written specifically for the liturgy today in the vernacular. My parish’s music director composed the music for an entire Mass specifically for our parish’s dedication of our permanent building a few years back.

I read an article a few years back that said most people prefer to pray in their first language so they don’t have to translate and that makes sense to me. It is pretty hard to concentrate on the Sacred mysteries when I’m trying to conjugate a verb or recall what a word means. (I’ve attended multiple Masses in Spanish, so I’ve had practice in trying.)

I’m currently Latin rite but if I’m forced to learn an ancient language to fully participate in the liturgy then I suppose I would rather learn Aramaic since that was Jesus’s native tongue. I guess it is a good thing that there is a Maronite rite church not too far away. Their liturgy is very reverent even when in English and their rite is older than the Latin rite. I suppose the new suggestions/guidelines would not apply to them because they are not Latin rite. They just might be packed at their liturgy that is mostly in English if the Latin rite parishes in our area make huge changes.

 

[Writer]

JW10631:

Latin is a dead language? Uh, sorry, no it isn’t.

First, a history lesson. Classical Latin, as found in the Mass of St. Pius V, no, that isn’t used. Castillan Spanish, Italian - all Romance languages are modern Latin. English, a Germanic language, has thousands of Latin words and variants of them.

Second - there are bound to be those who despise the very notion of ever seeing or hearing any language than English. This is a very American characteristic - many here think the rest of the world should just speak English.

What makes Latin a more sacred language for Mass is, in part, the Gregorian and Polyphonic Chant that was written for use with Latin. These forms of music were developed to give glory to God. They are not secular.

Hearing the Kyrie (yes, I know it’s Greek), ***Dominus vobiscum - et cum spiritu tuo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei - ***there is something special about these responses. In a way, they reach back over the centuries and connect us with those who have worshipped God in His Holy Church so long ago.

If Latin “kills” you, a fly swatter would likely accomplish the same thing, but faster. I regret that Latin was never available to me when I was in school.
Knowledge of Latin not only helps one understand the Romance languages, but English as well. In this way, one can learn that “and also with you” is a terrible translation of “et cum spiritu tuo”.

Guitar and Drum Masses should go the way of those imploded buildings that make the news ever so often. There is so much banal silliness that passes for music at Mass these days. In addition, learning a few words of another language never hurt anybody.

¡El Señor sea con todos ustedes!

Well said! Latin lives on in the words we read and say each day.

 

[mike182d]

jc-servant:

Latin was the language of trade and commerce and the oppressive Roman empire during the time of Jesus’s life.

Actually, Greek was the most common language throughout the whole of the Roman Empire and used for commerce and trade.

 

[Elmariachi]

I’m looking forward to reading every single word Pope Benedict XVI writes, especially regarding a return to solemnity in the sacred liturgy. We are blessed to have a Pope, like Benedict, who has bona fides as a reformer and also the respect of traditionalists. Latin is the official language of the Church, and Vatican II repeated this. Local churches have a wide range of options available regarding liturgy, maybe too much for ultratraditionalists. Well, that’s the way the Church is. My wife and I prefer the Tridentine mass. I have great respect also for the “Life Teen” masses that youngsters attend, and periods of silent contemplation are especially reverent there. I hope Benedict will continue his needed reforms in light of the true Vatican II, and will liberalize the indult that John Paul the Great granted to the Tridentine mass.

Mom2Boyz: “Señor” has two meanings based on context, Mr. or Sir, as in “el Señor Vazquez”, and “Lord”, as in “nuestro Señor Jesucristo”. My brother, fear not a reverence for the past, for it will strengthen your journey into the future. Nobody asks you to quote the Summa in Latin, only to show respect for the language of those early Saints and Martyrs whose faithful example of devotion to Christ and noble bravery in the shedding of their own blood, bought for you an unbroken tradition and deposit of faith which reverberates from the very side of the throne of Jesus in Heaven down to the humblest chapel on Earth, IN LATIN.

 

[johnnykins]

jc-servant:

Latin was the language of trade and commerce and the oppressive Roman empire during the time of Jesus’s life. Was it more sacred and holy than Aramaic or Greek? No. It was just more “common.” It is not a common tongue now in any country in the form that the church used to use. It was adopted for the convenience of the people in communicating across borders many hundreds of years ago, but it would not provide the same service now. I know some people have a nostalgia for Latin and some other things from older days and I hope they get to respectfully worship in the manner that brings them the closest to God, but I pray for the same for everyone else as well. We know that the liturgy was not always the Tridentine Mass or in Latin and I don’t think that is the only “correct” way to celebrate the liturgy. One poster commented on music that was written in Latin specifically for the liturgy. Lots of beautiful music is still being written specifically for the liturgy today in the vernacular. My parish’s music director composed the music for an entire Mass specifically for our parish’s dedication of our permanent building a few years back.

I read an article a few years back that said most people prefer to pray in their first language so they don’t have to translate and that makes sense to me. It is pretty hard to concentrate on the Sacred mysteries when I’m trying to conjugate a verb or recall what a word means. (I’ve attended multiple Masses in Spanish, so I’ve had practice in trying.)

I’m currently Latin rite but if I’m forced to learn an ancient language to fully participate in the liturgy then I suppose I would rather learn Aramaic since that was Jesus’s native tongue. I guess it is a good thing that there is a Maronite rite church not too far away. Their liturgy is very reverent even when in English and their rite is older than the Latin rite. I suppose the new suggestions/guidelines would not apply to them because they are not Latin rite. They just might be packed at their liturgy that is mostly in English if the Latin rite parishes in our area make huge changes.

Koine Greek was the language of trade, etc., at the time of Christ - not Latin.

Who has said any language is more “sacred” or “holy” than another? The only folks I hear claim that are the anti-Latin crowd who think that’s what the pro-Latin crowd think. It’s not part of any argument I’ve ever heard from the pro-Latin crowd. Now many of the pro-Latin group do say the Tridentine Mass is more reverent than the Missa Normativa. That, IMHO, has more to do with the form of those Masses (and MN “innovations”) rather than Latin. Except of splinter groups like the SSPX no one I know is saying that Latin is the only “correct” language or way to say Mass. Aside from SSPX, et al., I have heard pro MN folks say the pro-Latin crowd say that - but that’s not so.

As for music the new stuff I’ve heard has almost totally been dreck. Don’t know about your music director, but I would be surprised if it is anywhere in the league with the great classical composers. Folk music/folk rock is listened to by almost no one any more. I sincerely hope the Folk Mass goes the way of leisure suits. They are terrible aesthetically.

You might be interested to know the Roman Canon is the oldest canon in use.

It amazes me how some folks hate Latin - I guess they swallowed whole the myths of some liberal nun, brother or priest about the bad old days.

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

I haven’t read this thread carefully, so I apologize if this has answered, but will there have to be some action taken by the Bishops or will parish priests be able to just start including Latin prayers in the Mass?

I know our priests would do this in a heartbeat. In fact, our pastor is conducting a Lenten workshop on learning the prayers/responses in Latin.

I am sorry for my ignorance.

 

[johnnykins]

JMJ Theresa:

I haven’t read this thread carefully, so I apologize if this has answered, but will there have to be some action taken by the Bishops or will parish priests be able to just start including Latin prayers in the Mass?

I know our priests would do this in a heartbeat. In fact, our pastor is conducting a Lenten workshop on learning the prayers/responses in Latin.

I am sorry for my ignorance.

A priest can always say the current Mass in Latin whenever he wants. He can’t say the Tridentine Mass without the indult.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I’ve been to masses in Spanish and Italian. While I was able to figure out where we were in the Mass, I did not understand any of it. For the most part I knew where we were based mostly on the “Catholic gymnastics,” for lack of a better word. So it wasn’t the words, it was the posture.

If I learn only the appropriate verbal responses, that doesn’t mean I understand what I am saying or what it means. It also doesn’t mean that those responses have any meaning to me. I can certainly parrot responses, but I’ve always been under the impression that spiritual things should require more than just parroting a response.

I’m not opposed to having designated Latin Masses. Fine, if it speaks better to your spirituality.

The word Dios mean less to me than the word God. When you use El Senor for God, I translate it to mean Mister. That is not a word that even comes close to having the same meaning that God has for me.

As for the fly swatter comment, that is just uncharitable. I’ve been hit by a fly swatter and it didn’t kill me. Could attending services where I can’t understand what is happening harm my relationship with God? Quite possible. I didn’t write the poem.

As far as claiming our religious heritage, let’s not just stop with Latin. We could have the Old Testament readings in Hebrew, the New Testament readings in Greek, the consecration of the Eucharist in Aramaic, the homily in the venacular, and the rest in Latin.

Folks have been clamoring for a return to Latin since the venacular was introduced. It appears to me that the language that is used is just an incidental to the actual Mass. So I guess when I can’t understand parts, I’ll just pull out my rosary or some other prayer book and pray words that actually have meaning to me. It seems like that was what my mom said they did during the Latin Mass anyway.

Everything these days is so subjective! I was cracking up at some Pentecostals (no legit baptism…not Christian) trying to sing and my mother told me off, “It is how they praise God.” What!!! I listened on in horror as the Mass and that wretched service were equated by every heretical word!

The Mass is holy. It needs to be treated as holy. It is to be set apart and is to be respected. If all we do is “praise God in our own way” then we are part of nothing universal. ONE SACRIFICE-ONE MASS.

 

[tilis]

mike182d:

I could not disagree more.

The word “holy” quite literally means “set apart.” What makes a thing “sacred” or “reverent” is that it is “set apart” for God. No one makes icons of celebrities, no one drinks water at home from gold chalices, and no one keeps their wedding album in a gold tabernacle. What makes items used in a Liturgy particularly sacred is that they’re used for only one purpose: worship of God and worship of God alone.

There is no greater means of worship than with the human language and no language more “holy” than that which is “set apart” for God alone. Maybe not necessarily Latin, as Aramaic in the Maronite Churches and Greek in the Orthodox achieves similar reverence, but the point remains. Why worship God with the same tongue used to curse the man driving slow behind you or gossip about other people’s affairs?

I thought it was the Eucharist that made the mass holy. Not Latin. Anyway, did you know that the reason latin became so prevalent in the Early centuries of the western Church? Because it was the common tongue of the Common people. The aristocracy spoke greek, but the commoners in Rome only spoke latin. It is the “vulgar” tongue. That is why we speak of the latin translation of the bible as the “Latin Vulgate”. So much for latin being “set apart” for God.

 

[Dominica33]

tilis:

I thought it was the Eucharist that made the mass holy. Not Latin. Anyway, did you know that the reason latin became so prevalent in the Early centuries of the western Church? Because it was the common tongue of the Common people. The aristocracy spoke greek, but the commoners in Rome only spoke latin. It is the “vulgar” tongue. That is why we speak of the latin translation of the bible as the “Latin Vulgate”. So much for latin being “set apart” for God.

Ecclesiastical Latin features different pronunciation and numerous grammatical differences when compared to its vulgar counterpart. The church has, indeed, set it apart.

 

[JW10631]

The way the Roman Empire used the Latin language is quite different form the way the Latin Catholic Church used - and is using - Latin.

mom2boyz, if you think I was being uncharitable, then you are more than a bit too sensitive. Most Catholics in this world do not speak English. The single largest number speak Spanish - our neighbors to the south of the United States. Because you do not understand Spanish or Italian - and by your own admission do not like Latin - would you suggest that the Holy See should communicate only in English?

The point I am making is that the entire world does not speak American English - which, for those who know even a smidgen of other languages, is fine for business and science, but comes across as a rather banal and bland tongue.

No liturgical music written since VII can come close to the beauty of Gregorian and Polyphonic Chant.

There is no more beautiful hymn ever written than Schubert’s Ave Maria.

Do I object to the use of English in the Liturgy? No. There had been a long desire to have the Mass celebrated in the vernacular. The Polish National Catholic church split away, in part, because they wanted to worship in Polish. The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom has always been translated from Old Church Slavonic. The other Eastern Churches worship in the vernacular.

What happened is that there had been a wholesale scrapping of hundreds of years of tradition by those who trumpeted the “spirit of Vatican II” without ever having read the documents.
We in the English speaking world have been stuck with a lousy translation (et cum spiritu tuo does **NOT **mean “and also with you”). That is only one example.

The Latin language and Gregorian Chant have been called to have “primacy of place” (to be used widely) in the Missa Normativa. Both John Paul II and Benedict XVI have wanted increased use of Latin and an improvement in the Liturgy (and I´ll bet especially in English).

Let’s bring back the *Kyrie, *the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, the *Pater Noster.

***Dominus vobiscum!
**(Don’t understand it? It’s your loss.)

 

[JKirkLVNV]

oat soda:

this has never made sense to me. if the mass was large and international, wouldn’t latin be a good way to allow everyone to pray in the same language? i would say, except for small, local masses, latin is to be used. the strongest case for latin is that it is universal.

Yes, I think that would be the BEST time for Latin to be used.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

mike182d:

I could not disagree more.

The word “holy” quite literally means “set apart.” What makes a thing “sacred” or “reverent” is that it is “set apart” for God. No one makes icons of celebrities, no one drinks water at home from gold chalices, and no one keeps their wedding album in a gold tabernacle. What makes items used in a Liturgy particularly sacred is that they’re used for only one purpose: worship of God and worship of God alone.

There is no greater means of worship than with the human language and no language more “holy” than that which is “set apart” for God alone. Maybe not necessarily Latin, as Aramaic in the Maronite Churches and Greek in the Orthodox achieves similar reverence, but the point remains. Why worship God with the same tongue used to curse the man driving slow behind you or gossip about other people’s affairs?

I agree with some of your assertions, but not in the last paragraph. Take English, for example. Certainly you can use English to curse or gossip, but Shakespeare wrote in English, as did Donne and Milton, Hopkins, Newman, etc. And Latin is not so very sacred that it CAN’T be used to curse or gossip (witness the grafitti discovered in sites occupied by Latin speakers, such as Pompeii). Language is an exercise in symbolism, words are symbols. We employ them to convey meaning. Who needs to grasp meaning in the Mass? God? God is perfect in and of Himself and He needs nothing. He gave us the Eucharist because of OUR need to have our sins propitiated before Him through the unbloody re-presentation of Christ’s Sacrifice on Calvary. It is for us that the Mass exists and it seems that it is WE who need to understand it and it would only make sense that we could understand it better if it were offered in our language. I take the point about “sacral” language, but I would submit that when my Southern Baptist deacon grandfather, an old farmer with a high school education, addresses God as “Our Precious Heavenly Father,” and says “Thee” and “Thou” and “Thine,” that’s pretty much sacral language. Language can be sacred and still understandable.

I personally don’t think that we’re going to see a swing back to where the priest is saying very much in Latin at all. I think it will be things like the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Mysterium Fidei, the Agnus Dei, etc. At least I hope so. I think we’ll be loosing a precious thing, the Mass in the vernacular, if it goes much further than that.

I do agree that we need better translations and of course we need to dip into our treasury of great liturgical music and stop letting Oregon Catholic Press run rough-shod over the Mass. But the thing that would help the Church five minutes from now if it was adopted as a mindset is this: The Mass is no place for the priest to put his own personality forward. We’re supposed to see Jesus in him (he is supposed to be alter Christi at the Altar). If we can get them to stop putting their “stamp” all over the Mass, the weirdness would dissipate like a bad dream.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JW10631:

Let’s bring back the *Kyrie, *the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei, the Pater Noster.

Dominus vobiscum!
(Don’t understand it? It’s your loss.)

And I would reply,“In omnibus caritas.”

 

[mom2boyz]

Jw10631-I think you need to reread my posts. Never once did I say I do not like Latin. I said I do not want to attend a Mass in Latin or with parts in Latin because it is meaningless to me. The word literally have no meaning to me. It might as well be gibberish.

I lived for 3 years in Mexico and attended Mass in Spanish just about every week. However, I never became so good at Spanish where I could just sit, listen and understand what was being said without translating it to English. Everytime El Senor was used I had to remind myself that it wasn’t a reference to some Mister, but to God.

I don’t dislike any of these languages. I don’t even dislike Latin. And I do not think that everyone should communicate in English. These are not things I have ever said. I frankly don’t care what language the Pope uses. My best guess is that he uses the language that his audience will best understand. There have been too many assumptions on your part.

I do not want to worship in a language where the words have absolutely no meaning to me. I cannot see how sitting with a missal with the English translation of the Latin, which we already have and I don’t image it will change, will add to my worshipping God. So instead of paying attention to what is happening, I will spend my time searching for the page with the words that I understand. Et cum spiritu tuo may not mean And also with you, but it doesn’t mean anything else to me. I could say it till I’m a little old lady and it won’t change.

 

[Dominica33]

mom2boyz:

Jw10631-I think you need to reread my posts. Never once did I say I do not like Latin. I said I do not want to attend a Mass in Latin or with parts in Latin because it is meaningless to me. The word literally have no meaning to me. It might as well be gibberish.

I lived for 3 years in Mexico and attended Mass in Spanish just about every week. However, I never became so good at Spanish where I could just sit, listen and understand what was being said without translating it to English. Everytime El Senor was used I had to remind myself that it wasn’t a reference to some Mister, but to God.

I don’t dislike any of these languages. I don’t even dislike Latin. And I do not think that everyone should communicate in English. These are not things I have ever said. I frankly don’t care what language the Pope uses. My best guess is that he uses the language that his audience will best understand. There have been too many assumptions on your part.

I do not want to worship in a language where the words have absolutely no meaning to me. I cannot see how sitting with a missal with the English translation of the Latin, which we already have and I don’t image it will change, will add to my worshipping God. So instead of paying attention to what is happening, I will spend my time searching for the page with the words that I understand. Et cum spiritu tuo may not mean And also with you, but it doesn’t mean anything else to me. I could say it till I’m a little old lady and it won’t change.

Unfortunately, it’s part of being a Catholic. Latin is the *official * language of the Church, not English, Spanish, Italian, or anything else. It is part of having a complete catechesis, knowing at least a minimal amount of Latin to follow the Mass. Again, it’s not what you want to hear, but there’s a lot that Catholics don’t want to hear.