Pope’s upcoming Apostolic Exhortation likely to call for increased liturgical solemni

[JKirkLVNV]

Further, I think that this thread, and others like it, are excellent examples of WHY the Holy Father ought to establish a sep. authority for those who hanker after the TLM, sort of a rite within a rite, with their own hierarchs.

 

[Dominica33]

JKirkLVNV:

What’s the point of knowing the spritual works of mercy in another tongue? What? Why not know them in all the known tongues of the world?

I didn’t mean to imply the spiritual works of mercy need to be learned in Latin; rather, why would learning some Latin be any more imposing than learning and memorizing the spiritual works?

I would consider Latin more holy than the vernaculars, as Hebrew, Greek, and Latin are considered the three holy languages.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Dominica33:

I didn’t mean to imply the spiritual works of mercy need to be learned in Latin; rather, why would learning some Latin be any more imposing than learning and memorizing the spiritual works?

I would consider Latin more holy than the vernaculars, as Hebrew, Greek, and Latin are considered the three holy languages.

I don’t consider Latin to be holy at all. I don’t consider any language to be holy or sacral in and of itself. All languages can be employed to holy purposes, but IMHO, the only objectively holy language is that spoken by the angels (and I doubt it’s Latin).

I can see the purpose of Latin in huge, international mega-Masses, like World Youth Day or Papal Masses, etc.

 

[rwoehmke]

JMJ Theresa:

I haven’t read this thread carefully, so I apologize if this has answered, but will there have to be some action taken by the Bishops or will parish priests be able to just start including Latin prayers in the Mass?

I know our priests would do this in a heartbeat. In fact, our pastor is conducting a Lenten workshop on learning the prayers/responses in Latin. I am sorry for my ignorance.

I am just curious as to how any such mandate for Latin will be implemented when the Bishops at the synod under discussion in many cases had difficulty following the discussion or discussing in Latin. How many English speaking priests and Bishops today will have to go back to school to brush-up or even learn Latin before this millinial event can come to pass? I grew up with the Latin Liturgy so feel rather indifferent about it coming back. Can take it or leave it with litle pain. Personal prayer will still be in the language I know best. I am 70 and could well be on the wrong side of the sod before the Latin Liturgy once more becomes widespread.

 

[oat_soda]

I can see the purpose of Latin in huge, international mega-Masses, like World Youth Day or Papal Masses, etc.

this is why i find it so puzzling that the church says that when the mass is “large public and international”, it should be said in the vernacular. this kind of defeats the advantage of latin, that it can allow everyone to participate in the mass together which is a wonderful display of universality.

I don’t want any more than the commonly sung parts to be in Latin. Also, it is speculated that the Holy Father will invite a greater use of Latin. That’s different than a mandate.

no one here is calling for an all latin mass, but rather, one that retains elements of latin. entirely all vernacular masses are not what VII called for and while permitted, clearly do not show the element of universality and continuity with nearly 1800 years of latin’s use in the liturgy in the west.

**A **primary place must surely be given to that language which had its origins in Latium, and later proved so admirable a means for the spreading of Christianity throughout the West.

And since in God’s special Providence **this language united so many nations together under the authority of the Roman Empire – and that for so many centuries – it also became the rightful language of the Apostolic See.3 **Preserved for posterity, it proved to be a bond of unity for the Christian peoples of Europe

i believe that all vernacular masses are what the pope has called the “hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture” in his analysis of the reception VII.

The problems of reception have arisen from a struggle between two conflicting forms of interpretation. One of these has caused confusion; the other, in a silent but increasingly visible way, has brought results, and continues to bring them.
On one hand, there is an interpretation that I would like to call “hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture”. It was frequently able to find favour among mass media, and also a certain sector of modern theology.

 

[JW10631]

mom2boyz:

Jw10631-I think you need to reread my posts. Never once did I say I do not like Latin. I said I do not want to attend a Mass in Latin or with parts in Latin because it is meaningless to me. The word literally have no meaning to me. It might as well be gibberish.

I lived for 3 years in Mexico and attended Mass in Spanish just about every week. However, I never became so good at Spanish where I could just sit, listen and understand what was being said without translating it to English. Everytime El Senor was used I had to remind myself that it wasn’t a reference to some Mister, but to God.

I don’t dislike any of these languages. I don’t even dislike Latin. And I do not think that everyone should communicate in English. These are not things I have ever said. I frankly don’t care what language the Pope uses. My best guess is that he uses the language that his audience will best understand. There have been too many assumptions on your part.

I do not want to worship in a language where the words have absolutely no meaning to me. I cannot see how sitting with a missal with the English translation of the Latin, which we already have and I don’t image it will change, will add to my worshipping God. So instead of paying attention to what is happening, I will spend my time searching for the page with the words that I understand. Et cum spiritu tuo may not mean And also with you, but it doesn’t mean anything else to me. I could say it till I’m a little old lady and it won’t change.

You were in Mexico for three years and never learned the language well enough to understand Mass?

You have made it abundantly clear that for you, everything must be in English.
So be it. Not everyone has an appreciation of other languages. Clearly, you do not. As for your take on Latin, the first quote you used made it prettly clear that you do not like it. Then, you change your words.

Vatican II called for the use of the vernacular, to satisfy those like yourself.
I never criticized it. What I criticized is-

1. The very real relictance of many people who act like it is a major pain to learn even a few words of another language, and
2. The trashing of a major component of Church worship and history.

For what it’s worth - if learning et cum spiritu tuo is a major pain for you, then we have nothing further to discuss. Enjoy your tamborine and guitar Masses.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JW10631:

You were in Mexico for three years and never learned the language well enough to understand Mass?

You have made it abundantly clear that for you, everything must be in English.
So be it. Not everyone has an appreciation of other languages. Clearly, you do not. As for your take on Latin, the first quote you used made it prettly clear that you do not like it. Then, you change your words.

Vatican II called for the use of the vernacular, to satisfy those like yourself.
I never criticized it. What I criticized is-

1. The very real relictance of many people who act like it is a major pain to learn even a few words of another language, and
2. The trashing of a major component of Church worship and history.

For what it’s worth - if learning et cum spiritu tuo is a major pain for you, then we have nothing further to discuss. Enjoy your tamborine and guitar Masses.

What a failure in both logic and charity! How does a desire for Mass to remain in the vernacular equate to a desire for a tamborine or guitar Mass? No one is trashing either the Church’s worship (no one here has advocated for a “free-for-all, do-as-you-please, abandon-the-rubrics” abuse of the Holy Sacrifice) or her history. Learn to argue like a grown up…and (AGAIN) I would suggest you learn the meaning of THIS Latin phrase: “In omnibus caritas.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

oat soda:

this is why i find it so puzzling that the church says that when the mass is “large public and international”, it should be said in the vernacular. this kind of defeats the advantage of latin, that it can allow everyone to participate in the mass together which is a wonderful display of universality. no one here is calling for an all latin mass, but rather, one that retains elements of latin. entirely all vernacular masses are not what VII called for and while permitted, clearly do not show the element of universality and continuity with nearly 1800 years of latin’s use in the liturgy in the west. i believe that all vernacular masses are what the pope has called the “hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture” in his analysis of the reception VII.

I don’t agree that that is his meaning, I’m afraid, since the Mass was sometimes said in the vernacular even before the Council.

 

[mom2boyz]

JKirkLVNV]What a failure in both logic and charity! How does a desire for Mass to remain in the vernacular equate to a desire for a tamborine or guitar Mass? No one is trashing either the Church’s worship (no one here has advocated for a “free-for-all, do-as-you-please, abandon-the-rubrics” abuse of the Holy Sacrifice) or her history. Learn to argue like a grown up…and (AGAIN) I would suggest you learn the meaning of THIS Latin phrase: "In omnibus caritas

Thank you!

 

[gelsbern]

oat soda:

this is why i find it so puzzling that the church says that when the mass is “large public and international”, it should be said in the vernacular. this kind of defeats the advantage of latin, that it can allow everyone to participate in the mass together which is a wonderful display of universality. no one here is calling for an all latin mass, but rather, one that retains elements of latin. entirely all vernacular masses are not what VII called for and while permitted, clearly do not show the element of universality and continuity with nearly 1800 years of latin’s use in the liturgy in the west. i believe that all vernacular masses are what the pope has called the “hermeneutics of discontinuity and rupture” in his analysis of the reception VII.

I think you are mis-reading it.

The Vatican source said that the exhortation would include an invitation to greater use of Latin in the daily prayer of the Church and in the Mass—with the exception of the Liturgy of the Word—as well as in large public and international Masses.

You need to read it without the confusing part between the hyphens.

The Vatican source said that the exhortation would include an invitation to greater use of Latin in the daily prayer of the Church and in the Mass as well as in large public and international Masses.

It makes a big difference.

What I read it to be is that there would be greater use in latin in EVERYTHING except for Liturgy of the Word which would still be in the vernacular.

 

[bekalc]

I’m converting to Catholicism…And well I’ll go with any decision made, but I really don’t want the mass in Latin. I don’t mind singing some latin songs, (they are beautiful but I don’t want the mass in Latin.)

I just remember as a Protestant visiting a Catholic wedding and just being bowled away by the words of the mass. I sang the liturgy for days afterwards I thought it was so beauitful. I thought it told the gospel so well… And now they want to change it…

I think mass should be said in the language of the people. If I’m in Mexico of course it should be in Spanish, if I’m in France, French, and in the US,. Engilsh. For large international meetings Latin’s find…

As for not being willing to learn languages, I do’nt think that person is being very fair. It’s not a matter of not being willing, its just that we’d rather worship God in our Mother Tongue (so to speak) and I think the person wasn’t saying that they didn’t understand Spanish, just that they constantly had to translate.

But then again I guess it can be a sign of unity if we can all understand the language from all parts of the globe, so maybe it will be kind of cool. Because now at international events, we won’t really understand that much…So I’ll go with whatever decision is made.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

JKirkLVNV:

I don’t consider Latin to be holy at all. I don’t consider any language to be holy or sacral in and of itself. All languages can be employed to holy purposes, but IMHO, the only objectively holy language is that spoken by the angels (and I doubt it’s Latin).

You’re absolutely right that Latin is not sacred in and of itself. Designating a language as the sacred language of worship, though, is fairly popular. The Jews continued to worship in Hebrew long after their vernaculars had switched to Aramaic and Greek. The Muslims only recite the Q’uran in Arabic during their liturgy, despite having translated it for everyday use. The original use of these “sacred languages” was purely accidental - they happened to be the vernacular of the peoples in which their respective religions began.

Similarly, Latin just happened to be the vernacular of the Roman Church at a particular time. As the Romans began to use a different language, though, a decision was made to retain the old Latin as a liturgical language. With this shift, and the spread of the Roman Rite throughout the entire Western church, Latin was given significance as a sacred language and for its ability to act as a sign of catholicity. Given its long history of acting as such, I think there’s a pretty solid foundation for claiming that Latin is sacred.

Because basically all sacred things are sacred by designation and not naturally so, we could certainly do without them. But our worship is saturated with words, actions, and gestures that contain meanings attributed to while not inherent to them. We could also remove the sign of the cross and genuflexion and significantly alter other means of showing reverence or demarcating sacred time and space. But the key question in doing those things would be, I think, “Are we ensuring that the meanings embedded in these sacred things are being adequately expressed in some other manner, and if not, is it worth removing that meaning from the liturgy?”

My worry is that the trend today seems to be to discard traditional forms of reverence (because they are rooted in cultural conditions that no longer obtain) without finding a contemporary replacement that manages to convey the same thing. So Latin is not inherently holy. If we discard it in favor of the vernacular, what steps do we take to ensure that the liturgy is marked as sacred time and the worship of the Latin church expresses a unity throughout the world? I, for one, don’t see anything stepping into the breach left by Latin’s departure.

 

[buffalo]

I always thought that Latin would insure a constant interpretation and meaning as to Church pronouncements and documents. As mentioned often in these threads Pope JPII spoke in French regarding evolution and there was question as to what he actually said and meant.

 

[campion]

I really think we are missing the point here regarding the recommended use of Latin by the Vatican (if it does come about). It would help my parish in this situation: during the high Holy Days (Good Friday- though not an official Holy Day, Easter Vigil, Midnight Mass at Christmas, etc) our parish uses a bi-lingual Mass of English/Spanish. I find this extremely distracting and time consuming. Why not use Latin in these masses since it is the official language of the Church? We are truly a Universal church- so let’s use what we have been blessed with for the ease of many!!

I think it is a wonderful thing- and just pray that the “rumor mill” is true.

 

[Ignatius]

Pope’s upcoming Apostolic Exhortation likely to call for increased liturgical solemnity, reintegration of Latin

****Vatican City, Mar. 20, 2006 (CNA) - In June Pope Benedict XVI will receive the final proposal from the recent Synod of Bishops for the drafting of his Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation on the Eucharist. The commission of 12 cardinals and bishops from around the world, led by the secretary of the Synod of Bishops, Archbishop Nicola Eterovic, will meet in June to present the Holy Father a final proposal based on the 50 propositions that were made at the conclusion of last October’s Synod.

According to a Vatican source, the commission will approve “a proposal and a plan for liturgical reform,” which will be made public in the Apostolic Exhortation that the Holy Father will tentatively issue in October.

The Vatican source said that the exhortation would include an invitation to greater use of Latin in the daily prayer of the Church and in the Mass—with the exception of the Liturgy of the Word—as well as in large public and international Masses.

The document would also encourage a greater use of Gregorian chant and classical polyphonic music; the gradual elimination of the use of songs whose music or lyrics are secular in origin, as well as the elimination of instruments that are “inadequate for liturgical use,” such as the electric guitar or drums, although it is not likely that specific instruments will be mentioned.

more…

Alleluia!!!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Andreas Hofer:

Similarly, Latin just happened to be the vernacular of the Roman Church at a particular time. As the Romans began to use a different language, though, a decision was made to retain the old Latin as a liturgical language. With this shift, and the spread of the Roman Rite throughout the entire Western church, Latin was given significance as a sacred language and for its ability to act as a sign of catholicity. Given its long history of acting as such, I think there’s a pretty solid foundation for claiming that Latin is sacred.** But not in the sense that the Church’s discipline concerning it cannot be changed, as the elements of the Eucharist cannot be changed. The question then becomes,“Is there good reason for changing it?” To my mind, the answer would be “yes.” The people understanding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and thus more readily integrating it into themselves would outweigh any desire to keep the Latin. Again, that doesn’t mean that we have to abandon Latin, as I’ve said that makes about as much sense as abandoning Greek and Hebrew as being irrelevant. I should think that, liturgically, Latin would be good for the “international” Masses (televised Masses from Saint Peter’s, World Youth Day, etc). **
Because basically all sacred things are sacred by designation and not naturally so, we could certainly do without them. But our worship is saturated with words, actions, and gestures that contain meanings attributed to while not inherent to them. We could also remove the sign of the cross and genuflexion and significantly alter other means of showing reverence or demarcating sacred time and space. But the key question in doing those things would be, I think, “Are we ensuring that the meanings embedded in these sacred things are being adequately expressed in some other manner, and if not, is it worth removing that meaning from the liturgy?” And this is perhaps where we differ (I don’t know. I certainly realize I differ with others on this). What about the sign of the Cross do we not understand? Or genuflection? The vast, overwhelming majority of the Church DOESN’T understand Latin, but I daresay that they have a rudimentary understanding of these other things that show reverence. AND how precisely is the use of the vernacular in the Mass INADEQUATELY expressing the meaning embedded in these sacred things? How does the vernacular Mass remove that meaning from the liturgy? Bear in mind, I realize we could use better translations. That’s what I mean by Latin isn’t sacred or holy in that respect (it is venerable and necessary for scholarship, certainly). Latin (like any other language) is a tool for conveying meaning. Meaning is conveyed when there is comprehension and meaning isn’t conveyed when there isn’t comprehension.

My worry is that the trend today seems to be to discard traditional forms of reverence (because they are rooted in cultural conditions that no longer obtain) without finding a contemporary replacement that manages to convey the same thing. So Latin is not inherently holy.** If we discard it in favor of the vernacular, what steps do we take to ensure that the liturgy is marked as sacred time and the worship of the Latin church expresses a unity throughout the world?** I, for one, don’t see anything stepping into the breach left by Latin’s departure.

See above emphasis: **Better chatechesis? Better training for our priests? Instructing them that the liturgy isn’t “theirs,” it belongs to all of us and the last thing desired is for them to stamp their own ego’s all across it? Further, when I advocate for the vernacular, I’m not advocating for the vulgar. I don’t propose that we resond to the priest’s “The Lord be with you” with “yo, Dog, whassup?” It’s as I said, my grandfather’s speech when he addresses me is different from the “thees” and “thys” and “thous” he employs when he addresses the Holy One. **

 

[Brendan]

campion:

I really think we are missing the point here regarding the recommended use of Latin by the Vatican (if it does come about). It would help my parish in this situation: during the high Holy Days (Good Friday- though not an official Holy Day, Easter Vigil, Midnight Mass at Christmas, etc) our parish uses a bi-lingual Mass of English/Spanish. I find this extremely distracting and time consuming. Why not use Latin in these masses since it is the official language of the Church? We are truly a Universal church- so let’s use what we have been blessed with for the ease of many!!

I think it is a wonderful thing- and just pray that the “rumor mill” is true.

This is an excellent use of Latin in the Liturgy.

It also makes sense for the Latin Mass to be offered at various time and locations in a vicarate, to accomodate vistitors.

I’ve traveled internationally for work, and I is always nice to find a Latin Mass. In that way, I can participate fully and actively, just as V-II asked for, instead of sitting there while a Korean, or Dutch or German Mass goes on around me.

Vatican II called for all the faithful to be able to say or sing their parts of the Mass **IN LATIN ** ( Sacrosanctum Concillium #54)

If there are parishes that are not doing such instruction, then those parishes haven’t yet implemented the directives of Vatican II

 

[Benedictus]

mom2boyz:

Great, now I’ll go to Mass and not even understand what is going on.

Eh, I never pay attention anyways, so what’s the difference?

 

[JW10631]

JKirkLVNV:

What a failure in both logic and charity! How does a desire for Mass to remain in the vernacular equate to a desire for a tamborine or guitar Mass? No one is trashing either the Church’s worship (no one here has advocated for a “free-for-all, do-as-you-please, abandon-the-rubrics” abuse of the Holy Sacrifice) or her history. Learn to argue like a grown up…and (AGAIN) I would suggest you learn the meaning of THIS Latin phrase: “In omnibus caritas.”

JKirk, you are the one who needs to discuss issues like a grown up and not a 13 year old know it all. Apparently you think charity means I have to a gree with you or someone you agree with. Life doesn’t work that way.

“In all things charity.” Right?
THEN PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

JW10631:

JKirk, you are the one who needs to discuss issues like a grown up and not a 13 year old know it all. Apparently you think charity means I have to a gree with you or someone you agree with. Life doesn’t work that way.

“In all things charity.” Right?
THEN PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!

Please note the above dialogue between myself and Andreas. We disagree, but we do so without being disagreeable. You’re the one flouncing off with remarks like “well, it’s YOUR loss” and “if you can’t be bothered to learn” (Latin). Your admonition falls on a clean conscience. And I would write the same thing I wrote you before. I have 4th graders who exercise more courteous restraint than you do. And you have utterly failed to answer my question: Who is advocating for a tamborine Mass or a guitar Mass and what has that to do with this thread?