Pope’s upcoming Apostolic Exhortation likely to call for increased liturgical solemni

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Walt
 
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Brendan:
M2B,

I’ve taught my children basic Latin responses. It’s not all that hard to learn.

In fact, here is my then 4 year old son saying his “Ave Maria”

The documents of Vatican II ARE pretty clear on the subject, Latin should have the prime place in the Liturgy (Sacrosanctum Concillium #36)

The faithful should know how to say or chant their parts of the Mass IN LATIN ( S.C. #54)

So if your parish doesn’t offer instruction on what Latin you should know for the Mass, your parish has not yet implemented Vatican II
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That may or may not be true as to the failure to implement; some of have been around long enought to remember that parishes pretty much had the congregation saying the responses in Latin, then we moved to English.

Why is it, when implementation has been made of Vatican 2, and then there has been further changes, that the charge keeps being made that V2 wasn’t implemented?

Isn’t it really that what is being said is that no changes since Vatcan 2 are legitimate? However, there is nothing in the documents of Vatican 2 that said the changes suggested therein were binding and could not themselves be changed.
 
oat soda:
this has never made sense to me. if the mass was large and international, wouldn’t latin be a good way to allow everyone to pray in the same language? i would say, except for small, local masses, latin is to be used. the strongest case for latin is that it is universal.
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People can only pray in latin if they can speak in Latin. Othersiwe, they simpley repeat phonetic sounds. They may understand the gist of what is being said - such as the Sanctus or the Our Father; but if you took one or two words out of context and asked them what the words meant, most could not with any degree of accuracy tell you.

Latin is by no means universal, as I sincerely doubt that one one thousandth of one percent of Catholics can speak it - and by the way, that should be about 10,000 Catholics. You may call it universal since it is the official language of the Church, but even Pope John Paul 2 remarked on the fact that almost none of the Cardinals spoke any more in Latin.

The Mass started out in the languages of the people it was introduced to, and continued on with a number of them through 20 centuries (the Eastern Churches). Latin eventually was introduced to the areas that Rome conquered, but Rome most certainly did not conquer the world.

If you want a universal language, English comes a lot closer than any other language.
 
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mike182d:
Why worship God with the same tongue used to curse the man driving slow behind you or gossip about other people’s affairs?
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Well, Aramaic was the language of the day in Christ’s time, the language that people used to gossip about other’s affairs and the language that some probably used to curse the twit with the slow donkey and cart, but Christ seemed to deem it adequate to praise His Father in. Your logic on this escpaes me.

Why would anyone want to try to pray in a lnaguage he or she could not speak? And why would they want to have someone else do their praying for them in a different language, instead of using a language in which they could pray along with the one leading those prayers?
 
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johnnykins:
You could try reading the translation right there - which is what most people did. Some folks were illiterate - true - and hence the push for the vernacular. But, most Americans and westerners could and can read.

BTW your issue with Spanish is exactly why Latin makes so much sense - you won’t just happen upon a Mass in a language you don’t know. That, btw, was one of the reasons Latin was kept for so long.
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Sorry, I grew up prior to the introduction of the Mass in English, and so did my mother. As she say, putting the Mass in English was the greatest chage to come out of Vatican 2 - and she and I both used Missals with the translation.

And sorry again, but “most” people didn’t use Missals; some did and many didn’t.
 
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otm:
Othersiwe, they simpley repeat phonetic sounds.
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You said it better than I did! Phonetic…I couldn’t think of a simple word like phonetic!
 
And if you don’t say it correctly you can say something other than what it means. How do I know that if I don’t exactly repeat the phonetics well, I won’t have blasphemed or said something rude. This is easy to do in a language that you do not know.

Once I told someone in Spanish they could touch (tomar) instead of take (tocar) something. Another friend wanted to ask how much something cost (cuesta). Instead he asked how much cheese (queso). I would spend a lot of time in the Spanish Mass reminding myself of the correct way to pronounce peace so not to offend someone. If I had said it as I do in English I would have said something vulgar.

Some of us are not skilled in speaking other languages. I don’t have an ear for the fine point of other languages. It is not for lack of trying.
 
One would hope that one would put more effort into praying than asking how much something costs.

I only speak spanish occasionally, I pray constantly, and I have most of the prayers in latin memorized and know what they mean.

Oh and tomar is to take, and tocar is to touch. 🙂

EDIT: Sorry but I had to add in more. As far as making mistakes in what you say in Latin, I don’t think you have to worry about that. Being omiscient, God knows what you are trying to do and know’s what in your heart. You can’t accidentally be blasphemous.

And we are to have the faith of children so I thought I would add in some of these anecdotes, and they are in english.

A six-year-old was overheard reciting the Lord’s Prayer at a church service: “And forgive us our trash passes as we forgive those who passed trash against us.”

Every evening, a mother and her young son, knelt down beside his bed so he could say his prayers. One night, obviously bored with the same old prayer, the little boy said this: “Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, if I should die before I wake…can I have breakfast with you in the morning?”

A child was watching his mother sift through and delete a long list of junk E-mail on the computer screen.
“This reminds me of the Lord’s Prayer,” the child said.
“What do you mean?” the mother asked.
“You know. That part about 'deliver us from E-mail.”

My son’s rendering of the Lord’s prayer:
Our Father which aren’t in heaven, halloween be thy name… (Jason Age 5)
 
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otm:
Why would anyone want to try to pray in a lnaguage he or she could not speak? And why would they want to have someone else do their praying for them in a different language, instead of using a language in which they could pray along with the one leading those prayers?
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I don’t know, why don’t you ask Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Buddhists, or Hindus?
 
Fidei Defensor:
I don’t know, why don’t you ask Muslims, Orthodox Jews, Buddhists, or Hindus?
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Why would we? They’d just repeat what’s been said here, wouldn’t they? For those to whom it made sense, it would continue to make sense. For those to whom it makes no sense, it would more than likely continute to NOT make sense.
 
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otm:
That may or may not be true as to the failure to implement; some of have been around long enought to remember that parishes pretty much had the congregation saying the responses in Latin, then we moved to English.

Why is it, when implementation has been made of Vatican 2, and then there has been further changes, that the charge keeps being made that V2 wasn’t implemented?
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OK, Sacrosanctum Concillium #54 states that all the Faithful should be able to say or sung their parts of the Mass in Latin.

What steps is your parish taking to insure that mandate is being kept.

If there is nothing, would that not be a failure to implement SC #54
Isn’t it really that what is being said is that no changes since Vatcan 2 are legitimate? However, there is nothing in the documents of Vatican 2 that said the changes suggested therein were binding and could not themselves be changed.
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SC is the Liturigical Constitution of the Church. The only authority that could change that is the Pope.

I have read every Encyclical, Apostolic Exortation ect… from each of the Vatican II and post V-II pontifs. None have changed that mandate.

Are you aware of when that mandate was revoked?
 
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otm:
People can only pray in latin if they can speak in Latin. Othersiwe, they simpley repeat phonetic sounds. They may understand the gist of what is being said - such as the Sanctus or the Our Father; but if you took one or two words out of context and asked them what the words meant, most could not with any degree of accuracy tell you…
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Hmm, do you really mean that prayer actually comes from the lips and not from the heart?

I suppose you would also claim that mute people can’t pray at all, since they don’t speak any language.
 
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Brendan:
Hmm, do you really mean that prayer actually comes from the lips and not from the heart?

I suppose you would also claim that mute people can’t pray at all, since they don’t speak any language.
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I think that was hardly OTM’s assertion. Also, when you say “heart,” you realize that you’re speaking of a metaphor, right? The heart pumps blood and therein oxygen to the various parts of the body. It is the mind that is the seat of emotions, thought, expression, will, etc. And if the mind doesn’t comprehend because meaning is not conveyed (al a through a language), then what would prayer be other than a phonetic parroting?
 
Great, now I’ll go to Mass and not even understand what is going on. Will the missal have the English translation of the Latin so those of us born after Vatican II can follow along?

That Vatican II missal is available today.

Richard
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I think that was hardly OTM’s assertion. Also, when you say “heart,” you realize that you’re speaking of a metaphor, right? The heart pumps blood and therein oxygen to the various parts of the body. It is the mind that is the seat of emotions, thought, expression, will, etc. And if the mind doesn’t comprehend because meaning is not conveyed (al a through a language), then what would prayer be other than a phonetic parroting?
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You would be correct, but your premise relies on a very big IF there.

My 7 year old and my 5 year old both know their Ave Maria and my 7 year old know his ‘Pater Noster’

Both of them know what is being conveyed in those prayer, because they also know the English translation.

Likewise, if I ask them what " Et cum Spiritu tuo" means, they will both reply, “And with your Spirit”

Their minds know what is being said, therefore, by your own definition, it would be a prayer.
 
Well and fine, but that’s still not ample reason to abandon the vernacular mass. I can say the Gloria in Latin, as well as the Sanctus, but it isn’t as “mindful” for me as in English.
 
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kaimpls:
Great, now I’ll go to Mass and not even understand what is going on. Will the missal have the English translation of the Latin so those of us born after Vatican II can follow along?

That Vatican II missal is available today.

Richard
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Did anyone from the Holy See say that the vernacular was going to be banned?

Did anyone from the Holy See say that ignorance of Latin is a mortal sin? or even a venial one?

What I have read is this - The Holy See has been calling for a more faithful and reverent translation of and practice of the Mass, and for the increased use and knowledge of Latin.

I myself know very little Latin, I regret that. My experience in foreign laguages is that I can pick up some words very quickly, then I hit a mental block and it becomes difficult for any more to sink in. I’m sure others are in the same boat.
I have never claimed to insist that the vernacular be scrapped. What is saddening is that the patrimony of hundereds of years - especially thingks like Gregorian Chant - have been virtually thrown away in the Church in the United States and replaced with tripe like Lord of the Dance.

What is amazing, but not unexpected, is the amount of overreaction to this proclamation from the Holy See.

Latin is used to some degree in medicine, science and law. Nobody complains about that. Yet, when the Holy See wants the use of Latin in the liturgy increased, the whining and crying from some quarters is expected, but still silly.

The Holy See will not eliminate the vernacular. Calling for the use of the Kyrie (yes, it’s Greek), ***Dominus vobiscum - et cum spiritu tuo, ***the Sanctus, the Pater Noster, and the Agnus Dei, as well as Gregorian Chant and a few hymns in Latin, is not an undue burden upon anyone. It is also important to remember that the use of or lack of use of Latin is up to the presiding priest and to some dergee, the bishop of a diocese. If a particular priest doesn’t like Latin, then you won’t hear it. If a particular bishop doesn’t like Latin, then you likely won’t hear it anywhere in his diocese.

Depending upon Benedict XVI’s health, stamina and workload, he may well issue a new Missal or Order of the Mass. Nobody can be sure at this time.

JMHO - Bishops in the Latin Church should be able to speak Latin, and Latin should be taught in the seminaries. The same goes with Spanish, as it is increasingly the second language of the United States.
 
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johnnykins:
You do realize that it’s a canard that no one knew what was going on in the Latin Mass? I was 10 when the Mass was changed, yet I knew what was going on for the simple reason that the Missals in use had the Latin on the left page and the English on the right. Any literate person knew what was happening. For the illiterate or the person who did not know Latin and did not have a Missal - sure that was an issue. Good reason to allow the vernacular.

Have you been to a dual language Mass? I have. Double the time and you never know what prayers will be said in what language or both. Confusing for everybody. Have you been to a Mass in a completely foreign language with no translations available? If you have, I bet you still know what’s happening.

Latin is the official langaue of the Church - and Vatican II expressly says we should keep it.

Latin is part of our heritage as Roman Rite Catholics and we are as entitled to it as Melkites are to Arabic, etc

Latin is beautiful and the most beautiful liturgical music ever written was written for Latin.

It is unifying when we all can hear Mass in a language we all have familiarity with - if we bring it back and get folks familiar with it again - it’s a sign of unity

American Churches can generally afford Missal/Missalettes that have both Latin and English/Spanish/French/ whatever.

We need to reclaim our Latin heritage and not be afraid of it - nor disparage it.

As for the guitar Masses, etc., well, as a matter of taste I can’t stand them. I truly hope they go the way of the leisure suit. Yes, I participate much better with Chant - even if I don’t sing. I participate in prayer.
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I agree with you 100%!! Latin is such a beautiful language. It needs to come back. Now if we can just get the Communion rail back in, we’re golden!!
 
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Goldy:
I agree with you 100%!! Latin is such a beautiful language. It needs to come back. Now if we can just get the Communion rail back in, we’re golden!!
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Yeah…Golden Oldies maybe.

I don’t know what the fascination is with things like the communion rail.

Latin is lovely…so is English.
 
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frommi:
Yeah…Golden Oldies maybe.

I don’t know what the fascination is with things like the communion rail.

Latin is lovely…so is English.
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One thing I have noticed about the communion rail is that when one is in use a single priest can give communion to a larger number of people in a shorter space of time than when we stand in line.
 
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