Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

[Thomas_B]

Us conservatives are not the problem in the Church. Charity is always important, and always must be stressed, but error must be condemned, not coddled.

Never said that conservatives were the problem, I said that the attitiudes of some conservatives were the problem.

Regarding coddling vs. condemning. Why do you think Jesus did not throw stones at the alleged adultress, but rather protected her? Would you say that he was coddling her?

Did you know that only 8% of what is communicated between people is communicated through words? A whopping 92% of what is communicated between human beings is done via body language and paralanguage (ones vocal tone, speed and inflection). Learned that recently through a management class. So approach is everything. Approach someone via love and charity and they are more likely to come around to your way of thinking. Criticize and condemn and I guarantee you they will be running way from you in the opposite direction. What’s the saying- you catch more flies with honey that you do with vinegar?

 

[arnulph]

Nowhere here do I disagree with you. Did I say I was not a sinner? Of course not, don’t put words in my mouth. And yes, I am very much concerned with winning souls to Christ. I simply refuse to accept that by coddling moral evil, we’re winning anyone to Christ.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

 

[The_Bucket]

I simply refuse to accept that by coddling moral evil, we’re winning anyone to Christ.

Did Christ coddle evil? No. But He dined with tax collectors and hookers nevertheless.

Let us break bread with radical homosexuals, atheists, communists, violent criminals, abortion supporters, euthanasia supporters and all assortment of sinners. And let us pray that by showing a modicum of goodwill to them that the Holy Spirit opens their hearts to the Gospel.

 

[Gricken]

In regard to abortion, gay “marriage” and contraception the Holy Father said:

“The teaching of the Church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the Church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”

I think one of the reasons why the focus is often on these issues is because it is a response/reaction to those who are very visibly and audibly challenging and/or misrepresenting the Church on settled matters.

Maybe we can use his type of response…“The truth about this matter is settled and the teaching of the Church is clear. It will not change. Is there anything else we can talk about?”

That’s what I think he’s saying too

 

[newsmike]

This pope is truly worrisome. What’s next "Adultery, who am I to judge?’ This road ultimately leads to undermining doctrine to gain a wider membership. Eventually we arrive at the 10 Suggestions, not the 10 Commandments.

 

[exnihilo]

Prisons and keeping sexual predators away from children is a far cry from trying to ban homosexuals from living in a certain area. It was all hysteria in the past and nothing factual. The thought was that those terrible, terrible gays were going to molest your kid or turn him/her gay too.

That’s just nonsense. What threat do homosexuals pose to you? None. The only danger they pose is to their own souls. Sexual predators and violent criminals, on the other hand, do pose a clear and present danger to your person and to your family. That’s a perfectly valid reason to keep them “penned up” as it were.

Homosexuals tend to be hypersexualized. There is definitely within them also a desire to ‘turn’ straight guys. It may not be that all are like that. But it is common enough. Just yesterday a family member told me about how the park he walks in suddenly has lots of flamboyant homosexuals. They dress provocatively I assume trying to alert others. Of course we are well past the time when parks had bathrooms for the public. Those disappeared because they were meeting places for homosexuals. Sorry, having eyes to see there is no way I can say homosexuals don’t pose a danger to me and society. All sin does.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Did Christ coddle evil? No. But He dined with tax collectors and hookers nevertheless.

Let us break bread with radical homosexuals, atheists, communists, violent criminals, abortion supporters, euthanasia supporters and all assortment of sinners. And let us pray that by showing a modicum of goodwill to them that the Holy Spirit opens their hearts to the Gospel.

I agree completely. I believe that good will and charity are of the utmost importance. I apologize if I have given anyone here the wrong impression. If everything that you, Bucket, have been saying is what is meant by Francis’ words, then I 100% support what Francis is saying. I am still strongly concerned however, with the idea that abortion and same sex marriage have been over emphasized and are in need of a refocus.

 

[Baloo]

God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.

How many souls have you won to Christ today? How much did you preach the Gospel today?

How much did I preach the Gospel today? How many sins did I commit today?

Look at yourself as the Holy Father looks at himself. A sinner. A sinner nevertheless given an important and urgent task, to win souls to Christ.

If you are not winning souls to Christ you are failing. If you are not preaching the Gospel at all times, you are part of the problem. Count me among those who are part of the problem! We are all part of the problem because we fail daily to love God with all our beings and love our neighbors as ourselves.

Anything less is Pharisaical thinking.

Exactly right! Totally agree with you Bucket. With so much focus on specific problems in society, we become like the Pharisees.

I do not think the pope is saying what the NY Times fervently wants him to be saying. Jesus liked parables, which are really a form of analogy. Try this “parable of the home buyer.”

Once there was a young couple looking to purchase their first home. They went to see three available houses in their price, size and location desired. The first was a gorgeous home; spacious and beautiful, but slightly musty smelling. The cause was quickly found in the basement where the foundation was collapsing and severe water damage was present.

The second house they saw was frightful from the street. It hadn’t been painted on the outside in years, the landscape was overgrown and many windows were boarded shut. Surprisingly, it was well kept inside and sturdily built on a solid foundation. But what an ugly mess viewed from outside.

The third house was both solidly built, beautifully maintained and appealingly decorated. Which house do you suppose they bought?

For those analogy challenged, I think the pope is essentially saying that we can’t spend all our energies denouncing the sins of the world, or the world will not hear the Good News of Christ. We will become like the second house and people will drive by without stopping to have a look.

This by NO means suggests that we can allow OURSELVES to become like the first house, that presents a pretty face to the world, but is internally collapsing due to a lack of firm moral foundation. Compromise with sin is obviously a non-starter for Catholicism.

I think he’s calling us to be like the third house. To work to ensure that people SEE the joy that Christ brings to our lives. This doesn’t hardly allow us to neglect to discern right from wrong (lest we become the first house again). But we are called to grow beyond just structural maintenance to architectural (spiritual) beauty.

This is how I take the pope’s meaning. I’m sure there will be plenty who try to make his words into an excuse for compromising with sin. Such people will only rot their own foundation.

I really like this analogy. There needs to be balance in the Church.

 

[The_Bucket]

Homosexuals tend to be hypersexualized. There is definitely within them also a desire to ‘turn’ straight guys. It may not be that all are like that. But it is common enough. Just yesterday a family member told me about how the park he walks in suddenly has lots of flamboyant homosexuals. They dress provocatively I assume trying to alert others. Of course we are well past the time when parks had bathrooms for the public. Those disappeared because they were meeting places for homosexuals. Sorry, having eyes to see there is no way I can say homosexuals don’t pose a danger to me and society. All sin does.

So seeing a homosexual dressing provocatively tempts you to sin? Then may I suggest you investigate whether you have same-sex attraction.

If you’re saying that you “see sin” and that’s a danger to you… well when was the last time you spoke with someone who was divorced and did not have an annulment? Or had dinner with someone who had premarital sex? Or watched a ballgame with someone who does not uphold the Sabbath? Or shared a bed with someone who was envious of her neighbor?

When was the last time someone dined with you and all of your sins? When was the last time someone treated me with kindness despite all of my sins? Is my sinful nature catching?

 

[einna]

Except no one has been calling for running around casting the first stone. We know we are all sinners, but for the Pope to seemingly downplay the reality of moral evil is troubling. Yes, I’ve read the interview, and I know he said that the teachings of the Church do not change, but when the words of the Pope are watched by the world, and those words seemingly (even if not actually) give credence to evil, that is a problem.

Yes some actually are and I find it disturbing that a sinner can go around condemning other sinners. NONE of us are deserving of God’s love. The Church is here teach not condemning and above all else it is about the infinite love God has for all His children. That is what the Pope wants the focus to be before all else.

He stated the Church stance has no changed. What some people in the Church have lost is remember to love one another.

 

[The_Bucket]

I agree completely. I believe that good will and charity are of the utmost importance. I apologize if I have given anyone here the wrong impression. If everything that you, Bucket, have been saying is what is meant by Francis’ words, then I 100% support what Francis is saying. I am still strongly concerned however, with the idea that abortion and same sex marriage have been over emphasized and are in need of a refocus.

They have been the only thing that the world hears. Francis is not telling anyone to stop teaching about it. Just as with all his other public statements, he is saying “The world knows what we are against. We must tell it what we are for. What we are for is the love of Christ. We must share that love with everyone. And we have to do it now.”

Remember, these are the “last days.” The message of the Gospel is an urgent one for we do not know the day or the hour the Son of Man will return… or when we will meet Him and His Father face to face in our individual judgment.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Yes some actually are and I find it disturbing that a sinner can go around condemning other sinners. NONE of us are deserving of God’s love. The Church is here teach not condemning and above all else it is about the infinite love God has for all His children. That is what the Pope wants the focus to be before all else.

He stated the Church stance has no changed. What some people in the Church have lost is remember to love one another.

Do recall that repentance is also a message of the Gospel, not just love, but a call to repent. Are you saying that our Saints who fought heresy and evil should have simply not said anything, because they too were sinners?

 

[AdvanceAlways]

They have been the only thing that the world hears. Francis is not telling anyone to stop teaching about it. Just as with all his other public statements, he is saying “The world knows what we are against. We must tell it what we are for. What we are for is the love of Christ. We must share that love with everyone. And we have to do it now.”

Remember, these are the “last days.” The message of the Gospel is an urgent one for we do not know the day or the hour the Son of Man will return… or when we will meet Him and His Father face to face in our individual judgment.

This is a critical message, and I actually am thankful that Francis is addressing it, as the Church since Vatican II has often seemed to suggest that every religion is equally good, and no one should convert, so a call from Francis to spread the Gospel is indeed “good news.” (No pun intended…) however, I feel like this point could have been made without throwing those of us who have dedicated much of our time and efforts to fighting abortion, to the curb.

 

[The_Bucket]

This is a critical message, and I actually am thankful that Francis is addressing it, as the Church since Vatican II has often seemed to suggest that every religion is equally good, and no one should convert, so a call from Francis to spread the Gospel is indeed “good news.” (No pun intended…) however, I feel like this point could have been made without throwing those of us who have dedicated much of our time and efforts to fighting abortion, to the curb.

It was a question asked to him by the reporter. All he was saying is that we have to talk about more than just those things.

 

[arnulph]

This is a critical message, and I actually am thankful that Francis is addressing it, as the Church since Vatican II has often seemed to suggest that every religion is equally good, and no one should convert, so a call from Francis to spread the Gospel is indeed “good news.” (No pun intended…) however, I feel like this point could have been made without throwing those of us who have dedicated much of our time and efforts to fighting abortion, to the curb.

I don’t think Pope Francis has thrown anyone to the curb. Perhaps we should change the way we fight. Fight with LOVE.

 

[Thomas_B]

I don’t think Pope Francis has thrown anyone to the curb. Perhaps we should change the way we fight. Fight with LOVE.

Fight with LOVE - I love it. I’m going to make that my new motto!

 

[The_Bucket]

Do recall that repentance is also a message of the Gospel, not just love, but a call to repent. Are you saying that our Saints who fought heresy and evil should have simply not said anything, because they too were sinners?

Certainly not, but did St. Francis or any of the other great saints preach messages of “REPENT OR YOU ARE GOING TO HELL?” No. Let’s leave that to the fire and brimstone preachers in the Bible belt.

Most of our greatest saints preached the Gospel through example, not words. St. Maria Goretti preached about purity by sacrificing her life for it… and about forgiveness by forgiving her killer. Sts. Francis and Teresa of Calcutta preached about helping the poor by becoming one with them even as they served them as well. St. Thomas More preached about the importance of loving God and serving him above all things not by the great words he spoke but by refusing to accept the primacy of the King of England in moral mattes.

These saints put their lives on the line. We are called to do no less.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

The narrative that this whole interview has created is disastrous. For those of us here, we’re generally well read Catholics. When your average Catholic picks up the newspaper or checks the internet and he sees:

CNN: Pope Francis: Leave Gays Alone
NYPost: Pope: Stance on Abortion, Gays Massive Threat to Church
Daily News: A Very Frank Francis: Blunt pontiff tells flock to yammering about gay marriage, abortion, and contraceptives–or moral edifice of church will ‘fall like a house of cards
NY Times: Pope Bluntly Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion
AOL: Francis Condemns Church

that is bad. That does not save souls. That loses souls.

 

[exnihilo]

So seeing a homosexual dressing provocatively tempts you to sin? Then may I suggest you investigate whether you have same-sex attraction.

Yes provocative dressing does tempt me to sin, but not men. Please, not everyone who dislikes homosexuality is a homosexual.

If you’re saying that you “see sin” and that’s a danger to you… well when was the last time you spoke with someone who was divorced and did not have an annulment? Or had dinner with someone who had premarital sex? Or watched a ballgame with someone who does not uphold the Sabbath? Or shared a bed with someone who was envious of her neighbor?

As someone who suffers from the evils of divorce on account of my parents I can assure you I have a supreme hatred of divorce and find it shameful it is so accepted. But that is part of the problem. We moved on from divorce being no big deal to sodomy being no big deal. We are headed in the wrong direction.

I hang out with sinners all the time. I’m around one all day long of course… myself. The issue is not hanging out with sinners. The issue is should a sin be one’s identity and should our society promote particular sins as good. There isn’t a Liars Pride Day. There isn’t even a Divorce Pride Day (at least I hope not). The problem is our society is very confused over this issue and needs people in moral authority to speak clearly about the issue. We don’t need to hold steady where we are as a society. We need a massive repentance.

 

[Gricken]

When these topics are bringing about a destruction of society and culture, there had better be an obsession with them.

People are not listening when we talk this way. It is time we try a different angle. We bring them to the word of God first. We preach the truth, not bemoan the society of today. When they see the word of the lord, when they see us living it, when they see us loving others. They will come to us in wonder, not in hate like they do today, but in awe.
That is what the pope is saying. he is NOT saying to be silent on the issues of today, far from it. But we CAN NOT focus on screaming about the issue of today to the exclusion of living the faith. When we do that, we get what happens today, people who hear “catholic” and think horrible things about us.
So yes, I agree with the pope. We need to live the Word, Live the faith, if we are to have ANY hope of righting the wrongs in the world.