Pope Bluntly Faults Church's Focus on Gays and Abortion

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Of course, this is what liberal-minded Catholics have been saying all along. 😃
Not exactly! Of course that depends on how ā€œliberal-mindedā€ the person is. The ā€œliberal-mindedā€ Catholics around here are for abolishing some the moral aspects of the Faith. They have no interest whatsoever in an eventual adherence to moral teaching. They actually promote changing the teaching.

Evidently, things vary greatly according to where one lives.
 
Not exactly! Of course that depends on how ā€œliberal-mindedā€ the person is. The ā€œliberal-mindedā€ Catholics around here are for abolishing some the moral aspects of the Faith. They have no interest whatsoever in an eventual adherence to moral teaching. They actually promote changing the teaching.

Evidently, things vary greatly according to where one lives.
There are ā€œliberal/progressiveā€ Catholics like that, to be sure – but it’s a mistake to characterize them all this way. Just as it would be a mistake to offer sweeping generalizations about traditionalists.
 
There are ā€œliberal/progressiveā€ Catholics like that, to be sure – but it’s a mistake to characterize them all this way. Just as it would be a mistake to offer sweeping generalizations about traditionalists.
Agreed. But to use bellasbane’s take on the term would be to characterize John Paul II and Benedict XVI as ā€œliberal-mindedā€ Catholics, when in fact, they are simply ā€œCatholicā€.
 
What I hear him saying is that we must first change hearts and minds by proclaiming the Gospel and THEN moral behavior will follow.

Of course, this is what liberal-minded Catholics have been saying all along. 😃
šŸ‘šŸ‘

All along Bella…I don’t know if I would call myself liberal-minded or not, but that has been my one sentiment all along: too much emphasis on the do’s and don’ts without enough emphasis on the Gospel message without which these ā€˜rules’ make no sense. I say this in specific reference to abortion.

A person will not just value life because some stranger demands that they do. First they have to experience what it is to be valued by other people (something the Holy Father does a great job of), then they must come to understand that we are all valued by God, before they can understand why the power over life and death belongs to Him alone. The horse has to come before the cart, though both are eventually required in order to get anywhere.

I often hear the argument that it takes too long to ā€˜convert hearts and minds’, but obtaining people’s adherence to one or two moral do’s and don’ts, uncoupled from serious attempts to fully live out the Gospel, is simply a form of OT legalism in my mind: insufficient and ineffective despite our best efforts.
 
When will the ā€œconservative-mindedā€ Catholics realize that:
  1. Jesus never advocated political change, but instead preached the Gospel
  2. Gospel preaching is the primary duty of Christians, not political advocacy
  3. Preaching the Gospel is the best way to change people’s lives and behavior, not restricting people’s legal and civil rights
  4. People feel hated and judged by the Church seeking to restrict their civil rights, and therefore leave the Church.
    4A. The requirement to vote pro-life and anti-gay is more of a ā€œfalse traditionā€ perpetuated by the USCCB, and not the Vatican. It’s a false Magisterium.
  5. The Church has been at its historical worst when it meddles into politics
  6. Church and state should be separate. It sets bad precedent and paves the way for Islamic states.
  7. There is no tradition of meddling into politics, since the Church predated modern democracy
  8. The Church needs to be more welcoming of broken, sinful people. Not judge them for their previous sexual behavior. The Church needs to be more welcoming period. And prioritize fellowship and a sense of community.
  9. Evangelical churches have recognized all of this long ago and prioritize Bible education, preaching, teaching, and fellowship instead. That is why Evangelical churches are growing and the CC is shrinking. That is why Catholics come to Evangelical churches and feel they are experiencing God and His love for the first time. At a Protestant church.
  10. Finally, we have a pope that is recognizing this, and moving the Catholic church into a new direction. This change is necessary, otherwise the CC will be an irrelevant, remnant, dead church.
Will practicing Catholics please agree that Gospel preaching is more important than politics, which is what Francis is saying.
 
Agreed. But to use bellasbane’s take on the term would be to characterize John Paul II and Benedict XVI as ā€œliberal-mindedā€ Catholics, when in fact, they are simply ā€œCatholicā€.
I mean liberal-minded as flexible and open to the Holy Spirit in contrast to what Pope Francis describes as a static and inward-directed world view:

ā€œIf the Christian is a restorationist, a legalist, if he wants everything clear and safe, then he will find nothing. Tradition and memory of the past must help us to have the courage to open up new areas to God. Those who today always look for disciplinarian solutions, those who long for an exaggerated doctrinal ā€˜security,’ those who stubbornly try to recover a past that no longer exists*—they have a static and inward-directed view of things. In this way, faith becomes an ideology among other ideologies.

This may describe some folks in the Traditionalist camp. It does not describe either JPII or BXVI - both of whom added significantly to the development of doctrine in the spirit of Vatican II.
 
šŸ‘šŸ‘

All along Bella…I don’t know if I would call myself liberal-minded or not, but that has been my one sentiment all along: too much emphasis on the do’s and don’ts without enough emphasis on the Gospel message without which these ā€˜rules’ make no sense. I say this in specific reference to abortion.

A person will not just value life because some stranger demands that they do. First they have to experience what it is to be valued by other people (something the Holy Father does a great job of), then they must come to understand that we are all valued by God, before they can understand why the power over life and death belongs to Him alone. The horse has to come before the cart, though both are eventually required in order to get anywhere.

I often hear the argument that it takes too long to ā€˜convert hearts and minds’, but obtaining people’s adherence to one or two moral do’s and don’ts, uncoupled from serious attempts to fully live out the Gospel, is simply a form of OT legalism in my mind: insufficient and ineffective despite our best efforts.
I think you raise an interesting point but that in a sense it’s based on a flawed view.

Of course no individual, in our ā€˜cult of the individual’ society, is going to do anything based on what anyone tells him or her. ā€œYou aren’t the boss of MEā€.

That being said, to argue that the gospel message is somehow independent of ā€˜rules’ or ā€˜do’s and don’ts’ is itself I believe a mistaken view. Christ did not say, "Love one another above all and don’t worry about rules until you realize you should love one another’. Christ came among the Jewish people, as a Jewish person, and obeying all the Jewish ā€˜rules’ which were as important to His message then as they are now. Christ didn’t walk into a world where the ā€˜cult of the individual’ was being practiced. He came into a tribal world. Different tribes and societies had different rules, but none of those societies was based on upholding a message ā€˜without rules’.

The wrong idea (and it’s not yours) is that for many of the ā€˜average people’ today, including Christians, there is some nebulous idea floating around that ā€œGodā€ (and/or Jesus) was somehow just a cosmic teddy bear all about LOVE, and that ā€˜rules’ sprang up from MEN. When people do talk about religious rules today, it’s often to try to point out that rules ā€˜back then’ were different and of course that proved that God wasn’t the one making the rules and if we were REALLY Christian, we wouldn’t NEED rules because we’d do the right thing without ā€˜needing to be told’. Which is hogwash. Look at many of our ā€˜mainstream’ Protestant brothers and sisters whose churches have been following the ā€œGod is all above love, we are inclusive, rules are man made and changing, the focus is on the MESSAGEā€ for the last 50 years. Have these churches really reached out to people? Have people flocked in droves because these ā€˜non rule enforcing but gospel teaching and practicing’ churches have been offering acceptance and non judgment?

I don’t think so. Look how the membership of these churches has PLUMMETED.

One reason? If God doesn’t judge, if there aren’t any ā€˜do’s and don’ts’ beyond my own desires, if I can think myself a good person by not actively being a BAD one and that’s all I need, why bother to go to church? Why not ā€˜be with God’ at home, loving my family, having fun, celebrating life, and not doing bad things? Why have to ā€˜limit’ myself to a RULE about 'Sunday Church", ā€œSunday dressā€, ā€œSunday observancesā€. . .when I can just think ā€˜nice things’ about other people on my own time as I choose?

We can take a look also at our fundamentalist brothers and sisters. Here, if you will, are people who indeed focus on the gospel, and living it --they’re out evangelizing, helping each other, etc… . and oh wait. They have more ā€˜rules’ than a lot of Catholics follow. They don’t just attend a 45 minute Mass on a Sunday; often their services will last 3 hours or more. And then they have Sunday School. Bible study. Youth groups. Service groups. Many of them tithe. They dress plainly. They have ā€˜rules’ about things like courtship. They have rules about modesty. They have rules about ā€˜courteous speech’. Etc. etc.

And look at many of their membership lists and see how they are rising.

Why? In some ways, because along WITH the gospel message, they offer practical ways to carry it out --AKA, they give rules as a STRUCTURE (just the way the Catholic Church does) because without a STRUCTURE, people tend to build too high, too low, too flimsily, in the wrong location, etc.

I have no fault to find with the **continued emphasis on reaching out to the poor, and on compassion and understanding, which ALL of our Popes in the 20th century have been modeling. **

Pope Francis is no different from Pope Benedict or Pope John Paul 2 or Pope Paul VI or Pope John 23 or Pope Pius XII, XII, Benedict XV, or St. Pius X in his message of concern for the poor, compassion toward all, and need for the Church to reach out to all people.
 
When will the ā€œconservative-mindedā€ Catholics realize that:
  1. Jesus never advocated political change, but instead preached the Gospel
  2. Gospel preaching is the primary duty of Christians, not political advocacy
  3. Preaching the Gospel is the best way to change people’s lives and behavior, not restricting people’s legal and civil rights
  4. People feel hated and judged by the Church seeking to restrict their civil rights, and therefore leave the Church.
    4A. The requirement to vote pro-life and anti-gay is more of a ā€œfalse traditionā€ perpetuated by the USCCB, and not the Vatican. It’s a false Magisterium.
  5. The Church has been at its historical worst when it meddles into politics
  6. Church and state should be separate. It sets bad precedent and paves the way for Islamic states.
  7. There is no tradition of meddling into politics, since the Church predated modern democracy
  8. The Church needs to be more welcoming of broken, sinful people. Not judge them for their previous sexual behavior. The Church needs to be more welcoming period. And prioritize fellowship and a sense of community.
  9. Evangelical churches have recognized all of this long ago and prioritize Bible education, preaching, teaching, and fellowship instead. That is why Evangelical churches are growing and the CC is shrinking. That is why Catholics come to Evangelical churches and feel they are experiencing God and His love for the first time. At a Protestant church.
  10. Finally, we have a pope that is recognizing this, and moving the Catholic church into a new direction. This change is necessary, otherwise the CC will be an irrelevant, remnant, dead church.
Will practicing Catholics please agree that Gospel preaching is more important than politics, which is what Francis is saying.
Who is making this about 'politics???:confused:
 
Who is making this about 'politics???:confused:
The Pope brought politics up, himself, when he said he was not a bureaucrat nor a right winger. He wanted to distance himself from politics. He also realized that being authoritarian was not his best move.
 
The Catholic Church. ā€œPope Bluntly Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion.ā€
Since when is abortion a ā€˜political matter?’

I always thought it was a human rights issue. Doesn’t that transcend politics a bit?
 
Since when is abortion a ā€˜political matter?’

I always thought it was a human rights issue. Doesn’t that transcend politics a bit?
It is a human rights issue that has been made political.
 
Since when is abortion a ā€˜political matter?’

I always thought it was a human rights issue. Doesn’t that transcend politics a bit?
Yes, the rights of women not to be victimized by the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy. The understanding that children are an economic, social, and career burden. The understanding that pregnancy affects the health of women. The understanding that it is evil to force women to bear children, and evil to let children be born under unwanted, poor conditions. The understanding that women are intelligent enough to make intelligent choices about their life and health. The understanding that men do not fully understand pregnancy, and that women cannot be pressured by a male-dominant society to have children against their will.

Yes, abortion is a human rights issue.

You should thank God that Francis will likely not judge women who have had abortions.
 
Also the understanding that the Bible says nothing about abortion, contrary to the Magisterium’s insistence.
 
Yes, the rights of women not to be victimized by the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy. The understanding that children are an economic, social, and career burden. The understanding that pregnancy affects the health of women. The understanding that it is evil to force women to bear children, and evil to let children be born under unwanted, poor conditions. The understanding that women are intelligent enough to make intelligent choices about their life and health. The understanding that men do not fully understand pregnancy, and that women cannot be pressured by a male-dominant society to have children against their will.

Yes, abortion is a human rights issue.

You should thank God that Francis will likely not judge women who have had abortions.
Excuse me? I AM a woman. I raised three children and I’m raising an infant and toddler grandson right now because their MOTHER made her ā€˜choice’ to leave them with my son.

So all these women who have unwanted children get a ā€˜choice’, eh? What about the children’s choice?

I am not JUDGING these women as evil. I am saying the action of abortion is intrinsically evil. Can you please tell me how an action which always results in the death of an innocent child doesn’t deny that child a right to life?
 
Also the understanding that the Bible says nothing about abortion, contrary to the Magisterium’s insistence.
So an action which results in the death of a child who did absolutely nothing wrong and had no voice or choice is what, then? Morally acceptable?
 
Yes, the rights of women not to be victimized by the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy. The understanding that children are an economic, social, and career burden. The understanding that pregnancy affects the health of women. The understanding that it is evil to force women to bear children, and evil to let children be born under unwanted, poor conditions. The understanding that women are intelligent enough to make intelligent choices about their life and health. The understanding that men do not fully understand pregnancy, and that women cannot be pressured by a male-dominant society to have children against their will.

Yes, abortion is a human rights issue.

You should thank God that Francis will likely not judge women who have had abortions.
Well, you can’t correct an unfortunate situation by slaughtering a child.
 
I’m curious. Does anybody really think that Pope Francis is saying that abortion is not morally wrong? That it isn’t as important as 'feeding the poor?" That it’s all about the woman’s ā€˜right to choose’? That somehow this teaching of the Church isn’t a ā€˜real teaching’ and Pope Francis is recognizing that? That the death of millions and millions of children is not ā€˜important’ and that trying to help women (and their children, and their fathers too) by helping the mother AND the child by choosing life (which is what thousands of pro-life people and places have been offering for decades) isn’t necessary because abortion isn’t really that wrong?
 
So all these women who have unwanted children get a ā€˜choice’, eh? What about the children’s choice?

I am not JUDGING these women as evil. I am saying the action of abortion is intrinsically evil. Can you please tell me how an action which always results in the death of an innocent child doesn’t deny that child a right to life?
The unborn do not have rights under the Constitution, and they do not have the capacity to make choices, so their ā€œchoiceā€ is irrelevant.
So an action which results in the death of a child who did absolutely nothing wrong and had no voice or choice is what, then? Morally acceptable?
It can be argued that forcing women to suffer through unwanted pregnancy and raising children under poor, deprived conditions is morally evil.
 
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