Pope Calls Laity to Responsibility in the Church

[JimR-OCDS]

There’s more English speakers in India than there are in the USA!

True. Call for assistance with your Dell or HP computer.

Jim

 

[wisedom]

What “authority” do you seek, other than that which has already been granted us in Baptism through Christ our Lord?

thanks for identifying our authority!

then why have the higher hierarchy created a great divide between themselves and we poor souls?

so we had the authority and also the responsibility from Jesus Christ himself as found in his WORD!

 

[wisedom]

Either you have a vocation to the priesthood, or to religious life or you don’t.

If a person doesn’t have such a vocation then they are called to live holy lives in the world.

We don’t have to playact at being religious or priests in order to live a full, challenging and holy life of prayer and mission.

In some ways it is the hardest vocation of all:

• To be a holy and faith-filled and faithful husband and father, or wife and mother, or single person.
• To live chastely whatever our married or relationship state
• To be Catholic in the world today.
• To be a Catholic teacher, or policeman, or chef, or soldier, or nurse, or doctor, or construction worker etc., etc.

We can make a huge difference wherever we are, and in doing so we participate with Christ in His mission of re-Creating the world.

This is a life of quiet heroism and service and leadership.

It means we need to make stands, take positions, make our voices heard, be seen and be counted. This also means we will be reviled and spat on, laughed at, sued, ignored, called wackos.

It means we need to properly inform our consciences, learn our faith, become familiar with orthodox theology.

This is all good!

this is a classic! congrats…

Matrimony is also a Sacrament just like Holy Orders is …one has to be faithull to one’s calling and that’s all that matters!

 

[TrueLight]

Rather, the point was that he seems to have managed to do the same, and this has happened on more than a few occasions. (I hesitate to spell this out, but it is clear that is now necessary, as you have yet to read the original post, by your own admission.) Quote

But the point is that he is quite clear in what he says just like Jesus Christ…many people understood Jesus and as many understand Pope Benedict…
if you & your colleagues are confused, then it is your fault, it is beyond your understanding!

Like Solomon pl. pray to God for discernment or wisdom!

I believe you are misunderstanding ByzCath. Let me try to add some clarity.

Every time Jesus would open his mouth to speak, the people, especially the Pharisees, would hear what they wanted to hear. So his comments brought confusion because they had ears but did not hear.

A perfect example is John 7: 33-34.

33 Jesus said, “I am with you for only a short time, and then I am going to the one who sent me. 34 You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come.”

35 The Jews said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? 36 What did he mean when he said, ‘You will look for me, but you will not find me,’ and ‘Where I am, you cannot come’?

So what Jesus said was confusing to them because they listened with earthly ears instead of with spiritual ears.

In the same way, the Pope is saying one thing and we are all hearing what we want to hear. He is speaking of spiritual things, reminding us that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live our lives according to the Gospel, to spread the good news by our lives, and we are hearing that we will now have more roles at Mass.

It’s quite sad.

 

[wisedom]

I just realized you’re from India, which means you are not a native English speaker, which means your sarcasm went way by me because it was not written sarcastically but oddly and as if you were being serious.

In the future, I recommend the use of an emoticon to denote sarcasm; or, maybe a tag (#sarcasm) or otherwise , etc.

Cricket makes no sense to me; I prefer soccer. Or football as you might say, or do you say soccer?

Regards.

don’t bother … if sarcasm stated seriously escapes you, you are always welcome to ask for clarification…for the author, it is all the more hilarious! hahaha

 

[wisedom]

I believe you are misunderstanding ByzCath. Let me try to add some clarity.

Every time Jesus would open his mouth to speak, the people, especially the Pharisees, would hear what they wanted to hear. So his comments brought confusion because they had ears but did not hear.

A perfect example is John 7: 33-34.

So what Jesus said was confusing to them because they listened with earthly ears instead of with spiritual ears.

In the same way, the Pope is saying one thing and we are all hearing what we want to hear. He is speaking of spiritual things, reminding us that the Holy Spirit empowers us to live our lives according to the Gospel, to spread the good news by our lives, and we are hearing that we will now have more roles at Mass.

It’s quite sad.

it is not that,WE ARE ALL HEARING WHAT WE WANT TO HEAR,some or many of us, as the case may be, are hearing what we want to hear, while some others HEAR with our heart what Jesus is saying through his visible head, the Pope !..only the counter-part of the then pharisees are hearing what they want to hear!..Jesus never liked the pharisees & teachers of the law and the harsh language he used against them has no parallel anywhere!
you have to now decide whether you are a pharisee or not as regards what Jesus is telling us through His visible head, Pope Benedict 16th.

the then Magisterium for all their LIMITLESS knowledge about God, were unable to recognise God amongst us at his first coming, unlike the humble so-called sinners whose hearts were clean and good and they were able to recognize the MESSIAH!
Will the present day pharisees and teachers of the law be able to recognize God when he comes again in all his splendour?

 

[TrueLight]

WE ARE ALL NOT HEARING WHAT WE WANT TO HEAR!..only the counter-part of the then pharisees are hearing what they want to hear!..Jesus never like the pharisees & teachers of the law and the harsh language he used against them has no parallel anywhere!
you have to now decide whether you are a pharisee or not as regards what Jesus is telling us through His visible head, Pope Benedict 16th

Oh well. I tried.

 

[MarMax]

Blessed Pope John Paul II has explained what active participation is…

and so the community sin remaineth, for having read it, and ignored it, and saying they have read it, in their ignoring it for themselves and their community craziness… they participate only in the destruction of the Mass and what the Mass is.

I tried too. I give up.

Kyrie Eleison indeed. Dei Genitrix… ora pro nobis.

 

[MarMax]

Head of CDF commenting on the Not-Vatican II “Liturgy” insanity:

"Let us talk now about the fruits which the Vatican II produced. Can you comment on this?
** First of all of course the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” in comparison with the Tridentine Catechism: after the Council of Trent, the Catechismus Romanus was launched in order to provide parish priests, preachers etcetera with guidelines on how to preach and announce the Gospel or evangelize.

Even the 1983 Code of Canon Law can be considered a consequence of the Council. I must emphasise that the form of the post-conciliar liturgy with all its distortions, is not attributable to the Council or to the Liturgy Constitution established during Vatican II which by the way has not really been implemented even to this day. The indiscriminate removal of Latin and Gregorian Chants from liturgical celebrations and the erection of numerous altars were absolutely not acts prescribed by the Council.**

With the benefit of hindsight, let us cast our minds back in particular to the lack of sensitivity shown in terms of care for the faithful and in the pastoral carelessness shown in the liturgical form. One need only think of the Church’s excesses, reminiscent of the Beeldenstorm (the statue/image storm) which occurred in the 18th century. Excesses which catapulted numerous faithful into total chaos, leaving many fumbling around in the dark.

Just about anything and everything has been said on this subject. Meanwhile, the liturgy has come to be seen as a mirror image of Church life, subject to an organic historical evolution which cannot - as did indeed happen - suddenly be changed by decree par ordre de mufti. And we are still paying the price today."
Source: rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/08/brandmuller-mass-of-paul-vi-is-not-mass.html

 

[wisedom]

Oh well. I tried.

well in your last post you had concluded with “it’s sad” and i thought you were referring to your last paragraph and you are not clear as to what it is that makes you sad…there could be some misunderstanding there…

but for that, i believe that our views are identical or there is 'identity of mind", right?

in which case, you have not tried in vain!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Blessed Pope John Paul II has explained what active participation is…

and so the community sin remaineth, for having read it, and ignored it, and saying they have read it, in their ignoring it for themselves and their community craziness… they participate only in the destruction of the Mass and what the Mass is.

.

You’re accusing fellow Catholics of being in sin because they don’t agree with your interpretation of what Pope John Paul II wrote ?

I need to leave this forum.

Jim

 

[MarMax]

How can I interpret the man’s clear and plain words on what the phrase “active participation” means, other than what he specifically said?

I’m not interpreting anything. I’m going with what he defines as active participation. The head of the CDF also echoes the sentiment with the insanity which has resulted erroneously.

I’m with the side of Rome, who are you with?

 

[JRKH]

thanks for identifying our authority!

then why have the higher hierarchy created a great divide between themselves and we poor souls?

so we had the authority and also the responsibility from Jesus Christ himself as found in his WORD!

I see no “great divide”…

The “hierarchy” that some seem to have so much trouble with is really nothing more or less than a continuation of that which is seen in Acts 15…And it is an essential part of Jesus desire that we be one as He and the Father are one.

Peace
James

 

[TrueLight]

What does it mean for the clergy-laity relationship to be “familiar”?

Is this where we get “Father Bob” from?

 

[MarMax]

What does it mean for the clergy-laity relationship to be “familiar”?

Is this where we get “Father Bob” from?

I’d guess it is supposed to mean you don’t go to the priest and he says, “who are you? you go here?”

Don’t Religious Priests typically go by first name whereas the Secular will be referred to by last name?

For example, St. Padre Pio… aka Pius, upon his joining of the Capuchins. Padre: Father Pio: Pius. Not Padre Forgione.

 

[triumphguy]

What does it mean for the clergy-laity relationship to be “familiar”?

Is this where we get “Father Bob” from?

This paragraph

Let the spiritual shepherds recognize and promote the dignity as well as the responsibility of the laity in the Church. Let them willingly employ their prudent advice. Let them confidently assign duties to them in the service of the Church, allowing them freedom and room for action. Further, let them encourage lay people so that they may undertake tasks on their own initiative. Attentively in Christ, let them consider with fatherly love the projects, suggestions and desires proposed by the laity.(8*) However, let the shepherds respectfully acknowledge that just freedom which belongs to everyone in this earthly city vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

precedes:

A great many wonderful things are to be hoped for from this familiar dialogue between the laity and their spiritual leaders: in the laity a strengthened sense of personal responsibility; a renewed enthusiasm; a more ready application of their talents to the projects of their spiritual leaders. The latter, on the other hand, aided by the experience of the laity, can more clearly and more incisively come to decisions regarding both spiritual and temporal matters. In this way, the whole Church, strengthened by each one of its members, may more effectively fulfill is mission for the life of the world.

So it’s NOT the relationships that are to be familiar, but the dialogue.

A dialogue that is described by the following words: willingly, confidently, freedom, encourage, fatherly love

I think that’s what they mean by familiar.

 

[TrueLight]

I’d guess it is supposed to mean you don’t go to the priest and he says, “who are you? you go here?”

Don’t Religious Priests typically go by first name whereas the Secular will be referred to by last name?

For example, St. Padre Pio… aka Pius, upon his joining of the Capuchins. Padre: Father Pio: Pius. Not Padre Forgione.

I believe you are right about religious.

I know priests of traditional parishes go by last name. I’m not so sure that is universal.

 

[triumphguy]

I believe you are right about religious.

I know priests of traditional parishes go by last name. I’m not so sure that is universal.

I don’t want to be familiar with my priests. I don’t want a false sense of bonhomie. We’re not pals. I don’t want to go to the pub with them.

I don’t want to call “him” Father Bob, or Father Bill. or Bob or Bill

Been there, done that. Threw away the T Shirt.

Unless you are in community with them I say stick to the proper titles.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I don’t want to be familiar with my priests. I don’t want a false sense of bonhomie. We’re not pals. I don’t want to go to the pub with them.

I don’t want to call “him” Father Bob, or Father Bill. or Bob or Bill

Been there, done that. Threw away the T Shirt.

Unless you are in community with them I say stick to the proper titles.

Too bad…our priest is a good friend as well. He is human and needs friendship as well. People are often too quick to tell a priest what they think is wrong…but not quick enough to provide encouragement or prayers…

 

[MarMax]

I don’t want to be familiar with my priests. I don’t want a false sense of bonhomie. We’re not pals. I don’t want to go to the pub with them.

I don’t want to call “him” Father Bob, or Father Bill. or Bob or Bill

Been there, done that. Threw away the T Shirt.

Unless you are in community with them I say stick to the proper titles.

Indeed. Before making the move to TLM only I often heard “Is Bob going to be here tonight/at the meeting/etc.?” (Yes, Fr. Bob was really real, for real. ). He is a Religious though…

It really grated my nerves to hear that. He is FATHER Bob, not “Bob”.