Pope Calls Laity to Responsibility in the Church

[wisedom]

If what you are saying is that the laity need to clean up the clergy then

err…

No

why not? you are aware that after centuries of clerical abuse of innocent children, the TRUTH finally exploded like a nuclear bomb, or erupted like a volcano, or devastated like a tsunami, bringing extreme shame to the Church; the then Holy Father could only go down on his knees before the whole world for the sins perpetrated down the ages and seek pardon or forgiveness!..i think the present pontiff could only seek the forgiveness from those young innocent victims of sex-abuse by his clergy, in his broadcasts…ironically such crimes came to light during or around the year dedicated to the clergy!
with the authorities defending and shielding the criminals, and the laity having to face the shame, it becomes the duty of the people of God, to purify the Church, by taking necessary action to render JUSTICE to the victims and to award due punishment to the criminals…
or else we would be announcing to the world that while the laity are forbidden to commit even small sins, the clergy could get away with mortal sins…

to be continued, if necessary…

 

[wisedom]

I agree with this Triumph-guy…

It seems that we tend to think entirely too much about “power” and too little about “responsibility” and “service”… q u o t e

+++++++++

as the saying goes: “power (lust) corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”

 

[wisedom]

Jim

Quote:
Recalling that Lumen Gentium spoke of the laity-clergy relationship as “familiar,” the Pontiff said it is “important to deepen and to live out this spirit of profound communion in the Church, which characterized the early Christian community, as the book of the Acts of the Apostles attests.” - unquote

this “profound communion in the church”, is conspicuous by its absence, because the head of the church adopt the ‘holier than thou’ attitude as against the heart of the church!

 

[triumphguy]

We are not pals. We are much more than that. We are family.

Absolutely: I agree.

My kids call me “dad” or “daddy” not Triumphguy

 

[MarMax]

Wisedom-

I’m not Anti-Vatican II but am anti-the evil spirit of the “Spirit of Vatican II”, which is NOT Vatican II in line with Tradition; which has nothing to do with Vatican II and was just an excuse for people to ruin the Church as we see Her.

I’m very devoted to the Holy Father, and I always approach what he says first with charity if it seems hard and not specific. For example, when Pope Benedict XVI said something along the lines of other faith groups can be used as tools of salvation. On the surface I thought , but then I searched that phrase along with his name and found out he said the same thing about Marriage, and, Priests. So, obviously he meant this in a manner not meaning the false religion of Protestantism but in spite of it, or as a means to be drawn closer to Christ through growing in personal holiness.

The Spirit of Vatican II is from the pits of Hell.

 

[wisedom]

Wisedom-

I’m not Anti-Vatican II but am anti-the evil spirit of the “Spirit of Vatican II”, which is NOT Vatican II in line with Tradition; which has nothing to do with Vatican II and was just an excuse for people to ruin the Church as we see Her.

I’m very devoted to the Holy Father, and I always approach what he says first with charity if it seems hard and not specific. For example, when Pope Benedict XVI said something along the lines of other faith groups can be used as tools of salvation. On the surface I thought , but then I searched that phrase along with his name and found out he said the same thing about Marriage, and, Priests. So, obviously he meant this in a manner not meaning the false religion of Protestantism but in spite of it, or as a means to be drawn closer to Christ through growing in personal holiness.

The Spirit of Vatican II is from the pits of Hell.

MarMax -
elsewhere in these forums, members have stated that Christ has given absolute authority to the Pontiff to rule/guide/shepherd the church and we believe that the Holy Spirit inspires the Holy Father in making the right decisions in keeping with out turbulent times and when we do not obey such teachings of the Church, we are in actuality denying Jesus Christ; so how do you justify your thinking as the right one as against that of the Pope? is there no possibility of your being wrong?

also you see so much evil in the Pope’s call to the laity to fulfill their mission in life which is the same as the Church’s, insofar as it relates to proclaiming Jesus to all nations:He himself had declared that He would be with us till the end of the Age, we are not to be afraid!
it is note-worthy to note you are very devoted to the Pope.

 

[MarMax]

MarMax -
elsewhere in these forums, members have stated that Christ has given absolute authority to the Pontiff to rule/guide/shepherd the church and we believe that the Holy Spirit inspires the Holy Father in making the right decisions in keeping with out turbulent times and when we do not obey such teachings of the Church, we are in actuality denying Jesus Christ; so how do you justify your thinking as the right one as against that of the Pope? is there no possibility of your being wrong?

also you see so much evil in the Pope’s call to the laity to fulfill their mission in life which is the same as the Church’s, insofar as it relates to proclaiming Jesus to all nations:He himself had declared that He would be with us till the end of the Age, we are not to be afraid!
it is note-worthy to note you are very devoted to the Pope.

I refuse to engage in conversation with someone who twists my words into the exact OPPOSITE of what I’ve said. It’s not very cricket of you, wisedom-ji.

 

[archangel04]

It presents the importance of the laity and the need for the laity to be more actively involved
in the mission of the Church in both parish life and in the sacraments.

It’s why we have lay people’s responses at Mass, which in the TLM there was none, and the laity singing. Also, the laity are Lectors, and when needed, which is more common than not these days, as Extra Ordinary Eucharistic Ministers.

Before Vatican II, the laity sat in the pews and observed the Priest, altar boys(girls were not allowed) and the Choir as the sole active participants in the Mass.

The Laity could follow along with their missal, and that was considered all the active participation that was needed.

The Church would’ve died if not for Vatican II reforms.

Jim

Dude just be quiet already!

 

[SpeakInSilence]

Dude just be quiet already!

I think to tell a fellow brother in Christ to be quiet is against the rule of charity, try and exercise it.

 

[archangel04]

I think to tell a fellow brother in Christ to be quiet is against the rule of charity, try and exercise it.

Likewise

 

[Tony_the_mad]

I agree with much about what you are saying about a deep relationship with an authority figure can cause issues, but we still need to realize they need friendship as much as others.

I agree wholeheartedly.

On another note.

Your last statement confused however, why does evangelization need funding?

Mea culpa. I meant it as an analogy. The problem does not need monetary funding but spiritual funding if you will.

I might not know a lot, being only 21, but isn’t all he calling us to do is be faithful and preserve the tradition. Growing up Protestant, and living with a United Methodist Church I realized what has been the undoing of my Church, and what has hit the Catholic Church the hardest also, not keeping the tradition sacred.

Don’t sell yourself short with your knowledge. You took the time to learn about the Catholic faith and most likely you came through the RCIA program, which from my experience is generally pretty good at passing on the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church is made stronger by your knowledge and experience.

You might think it’s something else, but let me tell you it’s exactly what it is.

My generation and the generations that are younger than me are LOST. Horribly lost, and they are starting to cling unto false philosophies, lies of the past, and NOT the holy sacred tradition of the Church. We forgotten it.

My position is not that the young has lost or forgotten the tradition but that they have never been taught it. That responsibility is largely due to lay people who volunteer to teach religious education (RE) courses. They/we have failed for a variety of reasons with lots of blame to spread around to all layers if the Catholic Church. One of the reasons is that the leaders of the Church are so focused on lesser (still important) issues that they let the larger issues, like helping people to see the importance of the Eucharist and the rest of the Sacraments and even the Church itself, rot

So what is Pope Benedict asking us to do? Keep to the tradition, teach it to our children with the resources that have ALWAYS been provided to us, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, prayer, Encyclicals of the Popes, the writings of the Saints, and the Holy Bible. We don’t need to spend millions of dollars of something that tells you to use the things I just listed out.

It’s the PARENTS job and all of the laity to make our children, and their children’s children understand that God came down in the flesh, died for our sins, and set up the One Truth Holy Apostolic Catholic Church for all to participate in.

We lost our way, and we fell into pride, now it’s time for the laity to do their part and get people back into the dang mass!

Have you ever tried to read Papal encyclicals or official Catechisms of the Catholic Church? Do you have any idea of how many writings of the Saints there are? One would have to be a scholar to sort even through a fraction of what you mentioned. What you are suggesting here is the same as giving an average person all the writings of Isaac Newton and all the great mathematicians before and after him along with a Calculus and Modern Algebra textbooks and then telling them to teach first grade math.

I disagree strongly about the problem being pride. Or at the very least it is unhelpful, and most of the time hurtful, to say that the problem is pride. The good shepherd does not berate the lost sheep for pride; rather he frees it from the brambles and gently carries it home. There are some who chose to be lost due to pride, but they are the vast minority in my experience.

 

[Nec5]

“Pope Calls Laity to Responsibility in the Church”

Start leading and we’ll follow.

 

[wisedom]

I refuse to engage in conversation with someone who twists my words into the exact OPPOSITE of what I’ve said. It’s not very cricket of you, wisedom-ji.

hi
what i have stated are my views of the Truth that i see it, apparently from a different angle…this (the previous) particular statement is a carefully worded and equally carefully prepared one, unlike all the other statements posted by me in this thread, which were extempore and typed hastily during the rapid progress of the thread.
you are entitled to your views based on TRUTH as you see it from another angle…
we can never say that either you or I are right or wrong
TRUTH will reveal itself and my journey through this site - a journey within a journey- is to seek it and behold it, not just in HEAVEN, but also during this life-time, for are we not Spiriual beings…?

‘we are not human beings on a spiritual journey, we are spiritual beings on a human journey’ is a quote i am especially fond of, it being pregnant with meaning!

Regards

 

[Tony_the_mad]

The resource is available at each and every Mass. The Holy Eucharist is our source and summit for our Faith.

Which I use. It is extremely necessary but not sufficient. The Eucharist is our food which sustains and nourishes us but we still need to put our hand to the plow and often we need someone to help teach us how to plow and to help us maintain it.

In my mind, the abysmal quality of the Religious Education is the largest scandal in the Catholic Church. The list goes on and on. Most of the surveys I have seen show that even church-going Catholics know shockingly little about their faith and know the least of any faith. We have a huge number of problems. How do we teach the huge number of Catholics who rarely attend Church and/or RE classes? What are the most fundamental teachings that we need to make certain that every Catholic knows and at what level and grade shall we teach them? How do we train the huge number of RE volunteers who often don’t know that much more than the people they are teaching?

 

[pnewton]

In my mind, the abysmal quality of the Religious Education is the largest scandal in the Catholic Church.

I do not know that it is right to speak of failure of religious education in the* Church*. For instance, we have great religious education. Many good Catholics here teach religious education. I know some here have had difficulty with what their parish is doing. Even then, we have the safety net of the Catechism. Anyone that wants to put their hand to the plow, has the availability of teaching as in no time.

Yet your point is well taken that we are prudent to start at the earliest age teaching orthodox Catholicism.

 

[wisedom]

MarMax -
elsewhere in these forums, members have stated that Christ has given absolute authority to the Pontiff to rule/guide/shepherd the church and we believe that the Holy Spirit inspires the Holy Father in making the right decisions in keeping with our turbulent times and when we do not obey such teachings of the Church, we are in actuality denying Jesus Christ; - unquote

hi mm
i think you have misunderstood me and i clarify:

you will notice that the above statement clearly indicates that other members have taken the above stand while opposing me…on 2 other threads…
so i had used their line of argument against you for 2 reasons:

1. i wanted to know your reaction and you were right in what you did say…

2 i expected that those members would enter this thread and debate with you, which did not happen…

in conclusion i may inform you that i am no ‘twister’ and your allegation applies to those above cited members on 2 other threads…

i shoot as straight as an arrow and do not ‘twist’ others’ messages…

ty

 

[april32010]

RE: BPJPII’s misunderstood words on the muslims:

If they worship Allah thinking they worship God, in invincible ignorance they direct, poorly, worship to God. But, they do not worship the same God.

This nuance is deep in theology and on its face renders sycophantic understandings which are outright heresy. BPJPII had more brains and theological understanding in his little finger than you and I have in our pea brains. He also had a horrible habit of saying things he understood that he thought the laity would understand, and didn’t.

Muslims reject Christ. They reject the Trinity. They engage in the heresy of Monarchianism in a convoluted sense. They do not worship God but in that roundabout way that is only possible through invinceable ignorance, and natural law. Baltimore Catechism Q510-511.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

 

[iloveangels]

Benedict has been firming up and clarifying the roles of religious, priests, deacons and now the laity.

The laity have a powerful and important role in the world and in the Church.

I’d love to have a cup of coffee with Pope Benedict and ask him exactly what he means by “co-responsibility” and to expand on this sentence:

“Feel the commitment to work for the Church’s mission to be your own,” he exhorted, “through prayer, through study, through active participation in ecclesial life, through an attentive and positive gaze at the world, in the continual search for the signs of the times.”

Nobody really knows what co-responsibility means, I can tell you that. It’s completely outside the Catholic lexicon. Particularly if what he really means is mature and faithful co-responsibility. [Meaning looking out for the Church first instead of one’s sense of pride, power and underpants.]

 

[iloveangels]

It presents the importance of the laity and the need for the laity to be more actively involved
in the mission of the Church in both parish life and in the sacraments.

It’s why we have lay people’s responses at Mass, which in the TLM there was none, and the laity singing. Also, the laity are Lectors, and when needed, which is more common than not these days, as Extra Ordinary Eucharistic Ministers.

Before Vatican II, the laity sat in the pews and observed the Priest, altar boys(girls were not allowed) and the Choir as the sole active participants in the Mass.

The Laity could follow along with their missal, and that was considered all the active participation that was needed.

The Church would’ve died if not for Vatican II reforms.

Jim

Everything is not ONLY about the liturgy.

 

[iloveangels]

There should not be a power struggle, I agree. The problem being that the Church has been forced to move from a Laity of observers to a Laity of participants, this is what Vatican II was about in many ways. The problem is that vocations have declined even more since then and the role of the Laity has become even more important. This is why I did not call it a power struggle, but a power shift.
This is the modern struggle of the Catholic Church. It is very hard to ask the Laity to participate more fully in the Mass and the running of a church and not expect them to want them to be heard more on certain issues. This is the core of what is going on in the Catholic Church the last 50 years.
I don’t know how it will play out, but we can’t go back. With less Priests and Sisters we will see either less and smaller Catholic institutions or we will continue to see a shift in how Mass is celebrated, churches and schools are staffed, and Catholic charity is dispensed. The Priesthood is being redefined and reduced by these basic facts. How the Catholic Church deals with it doctrinally is what we struggle with.

The pope is not suggesting that laypeople get more POWER. He’s not suggesting that they change anything about the Liturgy. He’s suggesting that more people become ACTUAL CHRISTIANS in HABITS and BEHAVIOR. You know: The 10 Commandments (all 10 of them!) and reading the Bible and acting decent towards each other.

Be good Christians.

BINGO!

If what you are saying is that the laity need to clean up the clergy then
err…No

Agree, Triumphguy. Laypeople need to clean themselves up. And the pope’s asking that we do it with some gumption and speed, for a change.

Yes the parish pastor has been talking about evangelization in our church too. That we should be witnesses out in the world.

Yes. And that we learn to be Christians with each other even inside the Church. We need to stop fighting over politics and ministries and stop trying to cut each other off at the knees at every opportunity. And I’m NOT talking about the things we say, and political correctness and all that nonsense. I’m talking about the things WE DO and DON’T DO.

I just came from another thread about pew-sitting because of the awful politics that goes on in American parishes. Every bit of it was true. Many Catholics behave with each other in a downright un-Christian fashion. I am firmly convinced that the New Evangelization isn’t really about evangelizing the rest of the world, at least not yet. It’s about evangelizing the people in the Church, who often became Catholic but somehow not truly Christian.