Pope congratulates Biden

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MNathaniel said:
Woohoo, no one is capable of ever doing anything ever that puts them in bad standing with the Catholic Church. It’s a social club not a religion, after all. Let’s get with the program and throw out those pesky doctrines. Let’s follow politicians instead of Christ the king.
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It does seem like that is becoming the case. It’s one reason the civil union thing upset me.

I’m reading a book by Herbert Spencer at the moment, and he said something that made me think.
As already said… the moral law must be the law of the perfect man—the law in obedience to which perfection consists. There are but two propositions for us to choose between. It may either be asserted that morality is a code of rules for the behaviour of man as he is—a code which recognises existing defects of character, and allows for them; or otherwise that it is a code of rules for the regulation of conduct amongst men as they should be. Of the first alternative we must say, that any proposed system of morals which recognises existing defects, and countenances acts made needful by them, stands self-condemned; seeing that, by the hypothesis, acts thus excused are not the best conceivable; that is are not perfectly right—not perfectly moral, and therefore a morality which permits them, is, in so far as it does this, not a morality at all.
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Tis_Bearself said:
You have no idea what he says in confession
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That’s right. Nobody does. Because after he commits his publicly manifest grave sins, he doesn’t publicly repent of them.

Why would I want Biden “out of the Church”? I want him to decide to be in the Church. Publicly. Verbally. Out loud. To publicly renounce the publicly manifest grave evil he otherwise appears to be publicly persevering in thereby scandalizing the faithful by shouting abortion from his high political platform.
 
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Looks like he’s deciding to “be in the Church”, based on his going to Mass and by making speeeches about his Catholicism that end with “May God Protect Our Church”.

He may or may not do what you and others want him to do.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Looks like he’s deciding to “be in the Church”, based on his going to Mass and by making speeeches about his Catholicism that end with “May God Protect Our Church”.

He may or may not do what you and others want him to do.
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If being catholic means nothing more than going to mass and making speeches self-identifying as catholic, then being catholic means nothing. It’s a social club.

If a public figure fails to repent of pushing to expand the mass murder of children, while taking communion, he condemns himself. And he drags others down by his counter-example.
 
I guess i better just brace myself for 4 years of random Catholics redefining what someone has to do to “be Catholic” according to their own opinions rather than accepting what the Church and the bishops accept.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I guess i better just brace myself for 4 years of random Catholics redefining what someone has to do to “be Catholic” according to their own opinions rather than accepting what the Church and the bishops accept.
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Appeal to authority.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I guess i better just brace myself for 4 years of random Catholics redefining what someone has to do to “be Catholic” according to their own opinions rather than accepting what the Church and the bishops accept.
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Are you seriously suggesting we should accept, as a matter of course, politicians claiming Catholicism is compatible with pro-abortion ideology
 
LumineDiei said:
The Pope IS also a Head of State. It’s usual practice for Heads of State to congratulate one another upon election or appointment, regardless of either’s religious affiliations, like it or not.
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Which is why he also called Trump… oh, wait a minute, that didn’t happen.
 
TMC said:
Which is why he also called Trump… oh, wait a minute, that didn’t happen.
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As I recall, the Pope and Trump weren’t on friendly terms when he won because the Pope had already made, prior to the election, some remark Trump was “not a Christian” because he wanted to keep illegal immigrants out of the US.
 
I’m sure he did, but it wasn’t done publicly and the Vatican has not confirmed the contents of the call. A quick google shows Benedict XVI congratulated Obama and JPII congratulated Clinton and theirs were actually public. Seems business as usual. Before the 2016 election, Pope Francis said those who want to “build walls” were not very Christian, but denied it being in reference to any particular politician. Trump called it “disgraceful” for even the Pope to question his faith, calling the Pope a “pawn” of other interests, so it doesn’t look like they were interested in mutual pleasantries immediately afterward. They met more cordially a few months later.

I’m sure the Biden campaign would only report on those thing relevant to his agenda in any event. Here’s a more balanced article:
Pope Francis hasn’t publicly congratulated Biden as of Thursday afternoon. In response to a Crux question, Vatican spokesman Matteo Bruni confirmed that a call between Francis and Biden took place but did not comment on its contents.
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cruxnow.com

Pope and Biden discuss equality, climate change and immigration

Pope Francis and Biden had a phone conversation Thursday morning where they discussed working together on issues such as equality, climate change and immigration.
cruxnow.com cruxnow.com

It also bears pointing out US clergy have publicly congratulated him, like Archbishop Gomez who is much more conservative than Francis. There are all just the usual formalities and well-wishes (to do actual good, hopefully, not that he succeeds in everything he wants to do or his handlers want him to do).
 
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How are we defining “good standing.” Does it mean not being in a state of objective grave sin? Of mortal sin? Of public, manifest grave sin? Does it mean not being under some sort of ecclesiastical penalty?

The usual canon cited for denying him and other abortion supporters and public sinners (not under a formal penalty) communion has to do with avoiding scandal. It has nothing really to do with which bishop has jurisdiction over him or the application of any public penalties. It merely applies to the judgment of whichever minister he presents himself to for the sacrament.

It also has nothing to do with the state of one’s soul–as even high ranking clergy seem to be confused about. Whether to approach the sacrament on that basis is left to the conscience of the recipient.
 
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Genesis315 said:
The usual canon cited for denying him and other abortion supporters and public sinners (not under a formal penalty) communion has to do with avoiding scandal. It has nothing really to do with which bishop has jurisdiction over him
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Except that the USCCB decided some years ago that individual bishops could set the policy and make decisions for their dioceses on whether to restrict Communion and other sacraments based on politicians’ public positions. So Biden’s ability to receive is largely determined by the position of the bishop and diocese where he is located. I doubt the USCCB can or will ever get all the bishops on one page with this.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Except that the USCCB decided some years ago that individual bishops could set the policy and make decisions for their dioceses on whether to restrict Communion and other sacraments based on politicians’ public positions. So Biden’s ability to receive is largely determined by the position of the bishop and diocese where he is located. I doubt the USCCB can or will ever get all the bishops on one page with this.
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And this USCCB decision was the fruit of one man: then-Cardinal (now laicized) McCarrick.

Who used deceit to manipulate the bishops to think the Vatican advised them the opposite of what it did. He deliberately misrepresented the contents of the Vatican letter, and the subsequent vote (and current practice) cannot be considered untainted.

McCarrick is the one who publicly fought Burke on the issue, tried to muddy the waters, and set up the false dichotomy that instead of denying politicians Communion, pro-life messages should be preached to them. As if both can’t happen simultaneously, and as if the one isn’t made the stronger and clearer by the other.


I’m tired of pretending we just have to live with the rotten fruit of rotten seeds. No. Cut those bad decisions off at the root.

McCarrick did this. We can undo it.

Should the Church consider herself bound to stay committed to every prudentially erroneous path chosen by sexually abusive clerics who used deceit to manipulate others to take the path in this direction?
 
We’ll see how Biden acts when he gets into office. Speculation is that he is set to roll back some of Trump’s pro-life efforts on day 1 with some executive orders, or shortly after he takes office. The Little Sisters of the Poor will probably find themselves in court again. Biden’s DOJ will probably file briefs against Catholic schools, hospitals, and other institutions who are filing lawsuits to protect their religious freedom. We’ll see how Catholic he truly is (spoiler alert: probably not very).

While these “congratulations” are just mere formalities for a new head of state, it is an example of why many Catholics will never take Church teaching on matters like abortion, sexual morality, and other controversial societal issues seriously - the Church doesn’t take them particularly seriously itself, other than printing some pamphlets or paying them lip service in some press release.
 
Weserthy said:
We’ll see how Biden acts when he gets into office.
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This is it, yeah.

I’m speaking as I am because I think the past as it is has already caused significant scandal, and the present hasn’t yet changed course. And yet, I hope that course will change. I hope past won’t predict future. I hope actual power will give Biden pause. And I hope in that pause, in that silence, he will hear the voice of God and at least not do the things he’s publicly claimed he will do.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
I guess i better just brace myself for 4 years of random Catholics redefining what someone has to do to “be Catholic” according to their own opinions rather than accepting what the Church and the bishops accept.
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Not looking to start an argument here. I honestly respect your views and I think you think hard about the conclusions you come to.

I do rather think, myself, that Biden isn’t exactly doing what the Church accepts. On the most technical aspect, it appears that you’re correct; Biden would have to cooperate in actually procuring an abortion for someone before he excommunicated himself. However, supporting laws to make that very thing much easier should, in my opinion, be raising a lot more eyebrows towards Biden from more of our Catholic leaders than it currently is.

All that being said, the Pope is likely trying to find a way to influence him, instead of just hatcheting his character down immediately. I dunno.

It just feels off, and I can’t shake that feeling easily.
 
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I have a feeling that life for individual Catholics was likely a smidge happier before we knew when and where nationally known people go to church, use the bathroom, grab a hamburger…
 
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