Pope finally launches crackdown on world's largest illicit Catholic shrine [Medjugorje] and suspends 'dubious' priest

[BSHoop96]

Excuse me, but I went to Medjugoria in 1988. Let me tell you what was going on. There were priests hearing confessions from sun up to past sundown…many priests. There were Rosaries being said all of the time. There were people of all ages and nationalities and health walking up a mountain barefoot in the snow saying the Stations of the Cross. People were physically uncomfortable, but we were there, praying and singing and praying and singing…and fasting and fasting and praying and singing and fasting.

We went to the home of one of the visionaries. She certainly was NOT living high and dry. These people live in simple homes…not nearly as luxurious as a middle class home in the USA. No central air or heat. No microwave oven. etc.

The people are simple people. They open their homes to pilgrims. Why are people getting angry because they are earning a living by helping Christ’s pilgrims?

There is an impramataur on apparitions and inner locutions in this day and age because there are so many that the vatican cannot research them all. Not only that, but they cannot do a real study on these apparitions until they have ceased to happen…to be able to know whether what has been given in messages did indeed come to pass. That is the way of the Catholic Church.
We shall know it by its fruits.
Medjugoria’s fruits are true conversions. Since the Blessed Mother began appearing in Medjugoria, people have turned back to Christ.
None of the messages given by the Blessed Mother to the apparitioners has been wrong in any way.

Please see this link (considering your talk on “fruits”) on “The Flow of Grace”:

http://www.catholicculture.org:80/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7627&CFID=21070557&CFTOKEN=52927199

Also, you might want to read “Understanding Medjugorje” by Donal Anthony Foley.

Also things have changed with the seers since you went in 1988. You might want to do some reading on it.

The article on “Flow of Grace” I found particularly helpful. Also if you search online you can actually look at some of the letters exchanged between bishops and committees. Very interesting. Something is just not right. There is a reason the Church has not publicly supported Medjugorje and I am following their lead until something changes.

God bless.

 

[BSHoop96]

Your decision to believe only if or when the Church pronounces it
authentic is TOTALLY acceptable. You are not called or compelled to do anything less. I am not asking you to do so. I am simply stating that there is an impramatuer on Medjugoria.

The local Bishop is not in control of this. The Vatican is. For some reason the authority was taken away from this particular Bishop. This was not done without Papal authority. I live in the USA. I trust the Pope much more than a local Bishop…with all due respect to all Bishops everywhere. And they certainly have my respect, love and prayers.

I think that the Bishop is always in control of something such as this in his diocese. He calls the commission to investigate. The Bishop has the right to ask that it also be investigated by another commission if he chooses. I believe this is what he did after his initial commission. I don’t believe it “was taken away from him.”

Perhaps if you are interested I could find the link.

 

[BSHoop96]

This is a great message, but we don’t need unapproved apparitions to tell us what the Church, scripture, and the saints have been telling us for 2,000 years.

It’ll be great if Medjugorje is approved, but it is not needed to know that we should “Love JESUS, pray the Rosary, faste, recieve the Sacraments.”

The real danger here is that if Medjugorje is condemned, as many claimed apparitions eventually are, is what will happen to all the disillusioned people? Will they have invested so much in a false seer’s words that they end up drifting away from the faith?

And again I ask, why the desire to believe in apparitions that have yet to be approved? How do we know that this is not a diabolical trick?

I agree and I’m sure that’s why the official statement from Vatican says the people need pastoral care. It’s not a statement of approval of the apparition…it’s concern for all the pilgrims.

They have said that priests may not lead pilgrimages there or do anything to put forward that the Church has placed her approval on Medjugorje.

I just don’t understand why all these people don’t go to Lourdes or Fatima…the approved apparitions.

 

[Jennifer123]

Can anyone point me to an official statement by the Vatican that this apparition is still not approved or something that shows how Medjugorie is not an official apparition?

My parish library is under a lot of pressure to include books on Medjugorie and since the apparition has not been ruled authentic as has Fatima, for example, I’m trying to keep the books out. Those in charge of the library are sympathetic but they keep hearing from the apparition’s supporters that it is approved, so there is a lot of confusion and discord over it all.

I can’t seem to find anything other than propaganda either way through Google searches.

 

[Eucharisted]

The apparition is not only not yet approved, but the local bishop dose not regard it as supernatural.

Only people who don’t understand a bishop’s authority would dismiss a bishop’s judgment on apparitions. And there are some who, while understanding a bishop’s authority, nonetheless don’t care, putting their own judgements ahead of his. It is arrogence, and it is a bad fruit - usually associated with unauthentic apparitions.

Not that I’m saying Medjugorje is false.

Discernment of Apparitions

Local bishop’s judgement on Medjugorje

Local bishop’s homilies at Medjugorje

 

[Jennifer123]

The apparition is not only not yet approved, but the local bishop dose not regard it as supernatural. Only people who don’t understand a bishop’s authority would dismiss a bishop’s judgment on apparitions. And there are some who, while understanding a bishop’s authority, nonetheless don’t care, putting their own judgements ahead of his. It is arrogence, and it is a bad fruit - usually associated with unauthentic apparitions. (Not that I’m saying Medjugorje is false)

Discernment of Apparitions

Local bishop’s judgement on Medjugorje

Local bishop’s homilies at Medjugorje

This is what I fundamentally don’t understand about this apparition.

If Mary’s messages were so important for the world, why isn’t her communication short and succinct as to allow the Church, in its authority, to make a ruling so it can be ruled as authentic? Why would Our Blessed Mother allow this type of disobedience and confusion for so many years?

 

[BSHoop96]

This is what I fundamentally don’t understand about this apparition.

If Mary’s messages were so important for the world, why isn’t her communication short and succinct as to allow the Church, in its authority, to make a ruling so it can be ruled as authentic? Why would Our Blessed Mother allow this type of disobedience and confusion for so many years?

Why would she indeed?

 

[Adonis33]

This is what I fundamentally don’t understand about this apparition.

If Mary’s messages were so important for the world, why isn’t her communication short and succinct as to allow the Church, in its authority, to make a ruling so it can be ruled as authentic? Why would Our Blessed Mother allow this type of disobedience and confusion for so many years?

I think you have answered your own questions. There may be something being seen in Medj., but I am quite certain that it isn’t the Blessed Mother - or anyone else from Heaven.

 

[susanbeck]

I am really suprised you are all are so harsh! I hope you will be obediant when/if the pope/commission verifies medjugorje’s authenticity!

 

[Wyatt]

I am really suprised you are all are so harsh! I hope you will be obediant when/if the pope/commission verifies medjugorje’s authenticity!

Even if an apparition is approved by the Church, the faithful are not required to believe in it.

 

[joanmo42]

Can anyone point me to an official statement by the Vatican that this apparition is still not approved or something that shows how Medjugorie is not an official apparition?

My parish library is under a lot of pressure to include books on Medjugorie and since the apparition has not been ruled authentic as has Fatima, for example, I’m trying to keep the books out. Those in charge of the library are sympathetic but they keep hearing from the apparition’s supporters that it is approved, so there is a lot of confusion and discord over it all.

I can’t seem to find anything other than propaganda either way through Google searches.

The Church does not approve apparitions until they have ceased.
Since some of the children (now adults) still see Our Lady, then the Church will make no definitive decision until then. There is a committe designated by the Vatican to study the whole sequence of Medjugorje.

 

[Jennifer123]

The Church does not approve apparitions until they have ceased.
Since some of the children (now adults) still see Our Lady, then the Church will make no definitive decision until then. There is a committe designated by the Vatican to study the whole sequence of Medjugorje.

Yes, I understand. My question though is that if Our Lady’s messages are so important for the faithful, as it has been reported in the messages given, why doesn’t she cease to appear so that the Church, in its authority and wisdom, can rule these messages to be authentic so that the faithful can fully understand and appreciate it with full obedience?

I look forward to what the Church decides on this matter and hopefully it will be put to rest one way or another. In the meantime, I personally don’t want to attach myself to it as until it is deemed authentic. I don’t want to put myself or others at risk for error. :twocents:

 

[FiremanFrank]

… if Our Lady’s messages are so important for the faithful … why doesn’t she cease to appear …

She (Our Blessed Mother) doesn’t do anything of her own accord. She only does what Jesus allows her to do for the good of mankind.

So if the apparition is a valid one, your gripe would be with God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

… I personally don’t want to attach myself to it as until it is deemed authentic. I don’t want to put myself or others at risk for error.

You could never put yourself at risk for errors (no matter what the spiritual event) if you followed the teachings of Holy Mother Church.

That is our safeguard in every age and time …

 

[rpp]

The Church does not approve apparitions until they have ceased.
Since some of the children (now adults) still see Our Lady, then the Church will make no definitive decision until then. There is a committe designated by the Vatican to study the whole sequence of Medjugorje.

Refering to thest in bold, that is incorrect. The only people who promote that myth are the people trying to promote fraudulent apparitions. As has bee pointed out repeatedly on this thread, there are numerous apparitions and visionaries who have been determined to not be e of divine origin who stilll claim they are experiencing them These include visionaries in South Korea. Califormia, and, Medjugorje.

Furthermore, it is not necesarrily up to the Vatican. It was NOT the Vatican that determined the Fatima apparitions to be authentic. Rather it was the local bishop. In the case of the Madjugorje “aparitions”, the local bishop examined these and, like the Bishop of Fatima and Lourdes, made a determination to their authenticity. Unlike Fatima and Lourdes, the bishop overMedujorje made the determination that these “visions” were not of heavenly origin. That closed the matter. Period.

 

[LilyM]

Refering to thest in bold, that is incorrect. The only people who promote that myth are the people trying to promote fraudulent apparitions. As has bee pointed out repeatedly on this thread, there are numerous apparitions and visionaries who have been determined to not be e of divine origin who stilll claim they are experiencing them These include visionaries in South Korea. Califormia, and, Medjugorje.

True - if a visionary came along who in their first ‘locution’ claimed that Mary stated that she was God, or some such utter nonsense, I’d imagine it certainly could be dismissed very swiftly as not genuine, whether or not the apparitions continued thereafter!

Furthermore, it is not necesarrily up to the Vatican. It was NOT the Vatican that determined the Fatima apparitions to be authentic. Rather it was the local bishop.

This is true as well - it is NOT always the Vatican that determines such things. The Vatican has absolutely no need to issue a statement if the local Bishop has already done so, unless they disagree with his opinion.

And THIS 2004 statement from the Bishop, Jennifer, seems to say it all. cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101

I’d especially point you to the following paragraph near the end of the document:

“The Church, from the local to supreme level, from the beginning to this very day, has clearly and constantly repeated: Non constat de supernaturalitate! No to pilgrimages that would ascribe a supernatural nature to the apparitions, no shrine of the Madonna, no authentic messages nor revelations, no true visions!”

The Vatican certainly hasn’t disputed this judgement, since 2004! They’ve put out no contradictory statement.

 

[Eucharisted]

This is what I fundamentally don’t understand about this apparition.

If Mary’s messages were so important for the world, why isn’t her communication short and succinct as to allow the Church, in its authority, to make a ruling so it can be ruled as authentic? Why would Our Blessed Mother allow this type of disobedience and confusion for so many years?

You make an excellent point, one I hadn’t even thought of about the shortness of apparitions!

A liar would be the one who continues to give messages, because he knows if he stops, the Church will investiage the messages, and so, the lies would be uncovered.

 

[Eucharisted]

The disobedience of Medjugorje:

There are at least 6 or 7 religious or quasi-religious communities, just initiating or already established, some of diocesan right, some not, which have arbitrarily been installed in Medjugorje without the permission of the local Diocesan authorities. These communities are more a sign of disobedience than a real charisma of obedience in this Church!

…on 14 January 1982 something happened that marked the bishop’s position once and for all. That day, three of the “seers” came to Mostar with the “Madonna’s” message that the bishop, regarding the famous Herzegovinian Affair acted too hastily, because he sought the removal of two Franciscan associate pastors who were causing problems in Mostar…that the phenomenon was defending disobedient religious friars who were obstructing the normal functioning of the Cathedral…

The Catholic Church, in her discernment of apparitions, notes disobedience as a bad fruit:

B) Negative criteria:

d) Gravely immoral acts committed by the subject, or his associates, at the time of the facts, or on the occasion of these facts.

You don’t even have to get into any of the weird spiritual fruits of Medjugorje - and believe me, I’ve seen my share - to know the true nature of the apparitions. The apparition was defending the disobedient friars and it has not once asked for the disobedience to cease. It isn’t even a matter of a lack of call for obedience: the apparition was participating in the sin of disobedience via silence and defense of the offenders (two of nine ways to participate in sin). Can Mary sin? I think not!

 

[FiremanFrank]

The disobedience of Medjugorje:

The Catholic Church, in her discernment of apparitions, notes disobedience as a bad fruit:

You don’t even have to get into any of the weird spiritual fruits of Medjugorje - and believe me, I’ve seen my share - to know the true nature of the apparitions. The apparition was defending the disobedient friars and it has not once asked for the disobedience to cease. It isn’t even a matter of a lack of call for obedience: the apparition was participating in the sin of disobedience via silence and defense of the offenders (two of nine ways to participate in sin). Can Mary sin? I think not!

The comment regarding the inter-political squabble that is going on between the friars and others has no bearing whatsoever on the possible legitimacy of the apparitions at Medjugorje.

You must widen your view and extend your search to obtain a clearer insight of what is possibly happening there.

Like this one for instance:

**Interview With **Archbishop Emilio Ogñénovich
Archbishop Emeritus of Mercedes-Luján, Argentina

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Question: Have you shared you feelings, impressions, and thoughts with the Holy Father Pope Benedict?

Archbishop Ogñénovich: I did share them with John Paul II. He said to me if I was not the pope I would be in Medjugorje hearing confessions. He told me you should accompany pilgrims there, people will pray, they can have confessions, and people will change their lives. I didn’t dare ask him if he had any doubts about the apparitions. His answer was an evangelic one. You will know the tree by its fruit.

In March, before I came to Medjugorje I had an audience with the Holy Pope Benedict XVI, of course because of my age they gave me a seat up front, so I had an opportunity to greet the Pope personally and tell him “Holy Father we are just coming back from a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and we wanted to meet the new Peter of the Church here in Rome and from Rome we are going to Medjugorje. He patted my hand and said “good good.” There and then I realized he was happy about it.

The Church will need more time to give its position on Medjugorje, as the church used her wisdom and took her time to express its standings on Fatima, Lourdes and other places of apparitions. Regarding the acknowledgement, it should not be rushed, because the right moment will come.

There is one thing only in Medjugorje that worries me, there are not enough young people here. We are a generation that is going away.

medjugorje.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=178

 

[LilyM]

The comment regarding the inter-political squabble that is going on between the friars and others has no bearing whatsoever on the possible legitimacy of the apparitions at Medjugorje.

You must widen your view and extend your search to obtain a clearer insight of what is possibly happening there.

Like this one for instance:

**Interview With **Archbishop Emilio Ogñénovich
Archbishop Emeritus of Mercedes-Luján, Argentina

http://www.medjugorje.net/images/stories/people/thetree.jpg

Question: Have you shared you feelings, impressions, and thoughts with the Holy Father Pope Benedict?

Archbishop Ogñénovich: I did share them with John Paul II. He said to me if I was not the pope I would be in Medjugorje hearing confessions. He told me you should accompany pilgrims there, people will pray, they can have confessions, and people will change their lives. I didn’t dare ask him if he had any doubts about the apparitions. His answer was an evangelic one. You will know the tree by its fruit.

In March, before I came to Medjugorje I had an audience with the Holy Pope Benedict XVI, of course because of my age they gave me a seat up front, so I had an opportunity to greet the Pope personally and tell him “Holy Father we are just coming back from a pilgrimage to the Holy Land and we wanted to meet the new Peter of the Church here in Rome and from Rome we are going to Medjugorje. He patted my hand and said “good good.” There and then I realized he was happy about it.

The Church will need more time to give its position on Medjugorje, as the church used her wisdom and took her time to express its standings on Fatima, Lourdes and other places of apparitions. Regarding the acknowledgement, it should not be rushed, because the right moment will come.

There is one thing only in Medjugorje that worries me, there are not enough young people here. We are a generation that is going away.

medjugorje.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=178

Yup, Benedict was so happy about Medj that he then proceeded to … approve it? … visit himself? … actually he proceeded to discipline Fr Vlasic, didn’t he? That act was a ringing endorsement of Medj if ever I’ve seen one!

 

[Layman]

• The disobedience to the local bishop;
• The unending nature of the phenomena;
• The Queen Of Heaven turning up on schedule thousands of times;
• The ructions locally;

… are red flags for me.

I understand the local bishop was devoted to Mary. If she was truly gracing his diocese … well … I can’t imagine anything more wonderful. Every Catholic longs for closer contact with Jesus, Mary and the Lord God.

That he came out against the phenomena should be seen as significant.

**Look how divisive this issue is, in the local area and worldwide. Did the same thing happen at Fatima and Lourdes? **