Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[gracepoole]

But there are subjects the Church counsels us about.

No, I don’t need to look them up, I’m not politicizing this. I am sorry that some care to attack pro-lifers over party affiliations, that somehow, abortion clinics closing in Wisconsin or Texas might be a bad thing because of those who enact legislation. Yes, Grace Poole, their defunding America’s biggest abortion provider, Planned Parenthood, special interest of one party, is so shameful, is it not? How shameful and evil the GOP has done if there is one less abortion, one body saved. Your arguments are so convincing. Glad you have said before that you are against abortion, it is so clear.

Scott Walker, thumbs up, Rick Perry, thumbs up! The latter may have the death penalty in their state, that be wrong but it is not on the same level clearly as abortion. Need we hunt down the documents again, so we can see their shame Grace Poole??

I will continue to vote for those Shameful Pro-Lifers.

And shamefully pray pro-life rosaries and do other shameful pro-life acts!

God Bless your compassion!

Are you under the impression that 1) I am not pro-life, 2) I regularly vote for pro-choice candidates, and/or 3) I’m interested in politicizing Church teachings?

'Cause all three of those are wrong.

 

[gracepoole]

As shameful as it is, those “non-negotiables” still hold up, it is a semantics games the pro-lifers arguing against the lives saved by pro-life politicians, because hudson and karl rove said it.

I don’t even know if the history takes us to where Karl Rove devised this to get votes, that is a scandalous statement to say that, insulting as well to anyone who has ever SINCERELY been in the pro-life movement to protect the interests as the Federal Government and one party bankroll America’s Largest Abortion Provider to $400 or $500 million dollars a year.

Along with the “layman” whose name we don’t even know.

The Vatican documents are there, it is laid out, this is an argument for the apologetics section, I’m not tripping over some argument that tries to call the death penalty a non-negotiable when it is not clearly called that anywhere, nor torture, etc.

Please – investigate Karl Rove’s goals during GW’s presidency regarding Catholic voters. Again, Google can easily demonstrate that there’s nothing scandalous in noting what is factual (it might be scandalous, though, to claim I’m scandalizing someone else without any evidence to that fact). If we vote, for example, for the GOP simply because the GOP party platform doesn’t support abortion, we should at least acknowledge to ourselves and God that there may be other non-negotiables (not just those identified by Republicans) which the GOP also violates. No party is Catholic and no party meets the moral standards of the Church. That’s the simple conclusion I’m emphasizing and it definitely shouldn’t be shocking or uncomfortable for any Catholic.

 

[shelby_sun]

When I here such statements, I reflect on how our human nature judges other people by the plumb that is ourselves. People state that they “like this Pope” because he says things that are in line with their own reason. This is what we should expect of non-Catholics. I am concerned that Catholics do the same thing too often. We judge the pope as wrong when he disagrees with us and right when he agrees with us. We forget that we are not the standard by which the Holy Father is to be judged as a good pope or a bad pope.

Maybe it is not what he is saying so much as to how and where he is saying it. I myself raised by the Jesuit was put off by the bullet proof car the Pope rode in. Could you really see Jesus riding in one of those? If anyone should be willing to take a bullet for God it should be the Pope. Now many will say that is just naive in this day and age, well so is many of the things they are hoping to happen in the world.

The fact that he is risking his life to spread the Catholic faith, says more about him than anything. I didn’t take to Pope Benedict and was very put off with how he came across but I did not come on here and bash him. Does it really matter why people like Pope Francis as long as they are listening?

 

[Path_Finder]

The attack here has been on the GOP, if people really want to support partial birth abortion, bankrolling the abortion industry to $400 million a year, a so-called non-profit that makes endorsements of candidates, that’s up to each of our consciences.

 

[shelby_sun]

The attack here has been on the GOP, if people really want to support partial birth abortion, bankrolling the abortion industry to $400 million a year, a so-called non-profit that makes endorsements of candidates, that’s up to each of our consciences.

Has anyone said that here or do you have an agenda as this post is not specifically about abortion yet you keep speaking of it.

 

[Path_Finder]

Has anyone said that here or do you have an agenda as this post is not specifically about abortion yet you keep speaking of it.

So you are accusing someone of an agenda? They can see Voter’s guides about “non-negotiables” trashed, boiled down to politicians trying to pull some sort of trick to get votes? That is all being “pro-life” is about, this shallow way. Really, trashing pro-lifers as well as being gullible, not even something to do with the Church in this never-never land.

Yet, if one tries to TEACH the Church’s doctrines, we are suppose to be silent, it’s a trick to get votes somehow. I think it had everything to do with the issue.

 

[Path_Finder]

For the record, I was not posting on abortion, post # 227 mentioned it, the way topics along with the death penalty, torture, were just being “lumped together” and never mind, those little old ladies who might pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet on Fridays at 3 PM for pro-life causes, somehow, we were being treated to the idea that Republicans supported the death penalty, where as Democrats might support abortion but it basically offset each other.

So indeed, post #227: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12627475&postcount=227 was the original post in this set of events. If then defending the ensuing discussion constitutes an agenda, I guess shamefully, I did that.

 

[shelby_sun]

So you are accusing someone of an agenda? They can see Voter’s guides about “non-negotiables” trashed, boiled down to politicians trying to pull some sort of trick to get votes? That is all being “pro-life” is about, this shallow way. Really, trashing pro-lifers as well as being gullible, not even something to do with the Church in this never-never land.

Yet, if one tries to TEACH the Church’s doctrines, we are suppose to be silent, it’s a trick to get votes somehow. I think it had everything to do with the issue.

I am not accusing anyone of anything. Everyone, politically, has a right to their agenda, and I hardly think any political agenda is with out it;s tricks and bashing, call me negative or realistic. You to have a right to your views for whatever reason. BTW, I am not pro abortion, but I spend my time more on the issue of preventing unwanted pregnancy, which is also my right.

 

[KP3243]

It would serve all Catholics well to ask Jesus for humility of heart and to remove all egoism when contemplating and discerning political issues. Too many of us have such vastly different viewpoints which is logically evident that something isn’t lining up. We cannot be Catholic and not hold the same truths something counterfeit is going on.

 

[Exiled_Child]

Working with several Jesuit priests, they find all this debate ridiculous. First of all because it takes away from God as our focus and because whatever happen,s there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Above all else those who selected Pope Francis knew his liberal background, which is a Jesuit thinking. They do not admire wealth, power, fame, etc. and do not believe those are things we should have as are own priorities; however, they know that money and power are very big things in our world, so I believe the Pope is trying to get people to use their money and power for the best causes, to help the most people. It is not political to Pope Francis it is more a humanitarian issue.

:clapping: I think that’s well said, and I agree 100%.

 

[Crossbones]

This is not correct. The church does now and always has allowed for the death penalty. Although I personally oppose it there is no moral equivalency between supporting abortion and supporting the death penalty . Pope Benedict himself made it clear that a Catholic in good conscience can support the death penalty ,but never abortion

Pope John Paul II said

“It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

Pope Francis said:
“All Christians and people of good will are thus called today to struggle not only for abolition of the death penalty, whether it be legal or illegal and in all its forms, but also to improve prison conditions, out of respect for the human dignity of persons deprived of their liberty. And this, I connect with life imprisonment. Life imprisonment is a hidden death penalty.”

This kind of covers a few of my standard points. We have some 2b)

The Pope said that, but I am using my prudential judgment that what the Pope said doesn’t apply in this case (e.g., torture, unjust wars, …)

and some 2c)

Sure, but the Democrats support _________ and that trumps what the Pope said when I get in the voting booth (e.g., abortion, Sisters of Mercy contraceptives, …)

mixed together here.

 

[pnewton]

Pope Francis said:
“All Christians and people of good will are thus called today to struggle not only for abolition of the death penalty, whether it be legal or illegal and in all its forms, but also to improve prison conditions, out of respect for the human dignity of persons deprived of their liberty. And this, I connect with life imprisonment. Life imprisonment is a hidden death penalty.”

The Pope said that, but I am using my prudential judgment that what the Pope said doesn’t apply in this case (e.g., torture, unjust wars, …)

It is a matter of prudential judgment, sort of. However, as the Holy Father has sound judgment, as his request is in accord with Catholic teaching, as he hold the temporal authority of Jesus on Earth, his call is my instruction, my mission, my mandate.

Sure, but the Democrats support _________ and that trumps what the Pope said when I get in the voting booth (e.g., abortion, Sisters of Mercy contraceptives, …)

If we were voting for the death penalty or abortion, then all would be simple. We do not. We have to vote for people who may be for this and not that. So this second statement is a valid reason to vote for one person over another.

 

[shelby_sun]

Pope John Paul II said

“It is clear that, for these purposes to be achieved, the nature and extent of the punishment must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity: in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today however, as a result of steady improvements in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

Pope Francis said:
“All Christians and people of good will are thus called today to struggle not only for abolition of the death penalty, whether it be legal or illegal and in all its forms, but also to improve prison conditions, out of respect for the human dignity of persons deprived of their liberty. And this, I connect with life imprisonment. Life imprisonment is a hidden death penalty.”

This kind of covers a few of my standard points. We have some 2b)

The Pope said that, but I am using my prudential judgment that what the Pope said doesn’t apply in this case (e.g., torture, unjust wars, …)

and some 2c)

Sure, but the Democrats support _________ and that trumps what the Pope said when I get in the voting booth (e.g., abortion, Sisters of Mercy contraceptives, …)

mixed together here.

I am sorry, but I cannot believe anyone can compare abortion to the death penalty. One is killing an innocent human being who has never harmed anyone by being torn, burned, or sucked out while alive until it is dead.

The death penalty is killing a human being who has raped, tortured, dismembered, eaten, etc. one or more persons taking away everything they had and shattering the lives of everyone that knew them. Contrary to what people believe, when someone is put to death by injection and they do not die right away, that person feels no pain not matter how long it takes him to die. Those prisoners are so heavily sedated they don’t feel the seizures they might go through. My husband is a drug chemist and he cannot believe that people cry that we are torturing these people.

You simply cannot compare the two no matter what your stance on the death penalty, IMO.

 

[estesbob]

The church has very few doctrines that apply directly to political issues, and those only for issues involving intrinsic evils. These are in fact the issues you indirectly refer to here.
On issues like immigration, health care, the budget, the minimum wage, etc, the church has no position at all. She has general doctrines that specify the ends toward which we should work - feed the hungry, heal the sick…- but she does not address the means that should be taken to achieve those ends. Those are prudential questions about which people may legitimately disagree. There is no “church side” on these issues.
It’s hard to understand how people can actually believe such silliness.

It is not Pope Francis who is driving a wedge; that is being done by those using his words to achieve political goals. There are church doctrines that are at odds with specific goals expressed by the Democrat party in the areas of abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage, etc. There are no doctrines at odds with any goal expressed by the GOP. What there are are differences of opinions about how to secure the generic ends toward which we are all obliged to work.

Ender

 

[KP3243]

I am sorry, but I cannot believe anyone can compare abortion to the death penalty. One is killing an innocent human being who has never harmed anyone by being torn, burned, or sucked out while alive until it is dead.

The death penalty is killing a human being who has raped, tortured, dismembered, eaten, etc. one or more persons taking away everything they had and shattering the lives of everyone that knew them. Contrary to what people believe, when someone is put to death by injection and they do not die right away, that person feels no pain not matter how long it takes him to die. Those prisoners are so heavily sedated they don’t feel the seizures they might go through. My husband is a drug chemist and he cannot believe that people cry that we are torturing these people.

You simply cannot compare the two no matter what your stance on the death penalty, IMO.

The person being executed is protected from cruel and unusual punishment and they cannot be tortured to death. When there is a botched execution it is an abomination, I don’t support the death penalty in any way and was so disappointed it wasn’t removed in California when it was no the ballot a few years ago with that said a baby whose body is being pulled apart doesn’t even get the courtesy of

I am sorry, but I cannot believe anyone can compare abortion to the death penalty. One is killing an innocent human being who has never harmed anyone by being torn, burned, or sucked out while alive until it is dead.

The death penalty is killing a human being who has raped, tortured, dismembered, eaten, etc. one or more persons taking away everything they had and shattering the lives of everyone that knew them. Contrary to what people believe, when someone is put to death by injection and they do not die right away, that person feels no pain not matter how long it takes him to die. Those prisoners are so heavily sedated they don’t feel the seizures they might go through. My husband is a drug chemist and he cannot believe that people cry that we are torturing these people.

You simply cannot compare the two no matter what your stance on the death penalty, IMO.

The person being executed is protected from cruel and unusual punishment and they cannot be tortured to death. When there is a botched execution it is an abomination, I don’t support the death penalty in any way and was so disappointed it wasn’t removed in California when it was no the ballot a few years ago with that said a baby whose body is being pulled apart doesn’t even get the courtesy of anesthetics while it’s head gets crushed. The number of abortions significantly higher than executions. We simply cannot look at ourselves as a nation and be disgusted with things like the Holocost when we allow abortion in our country.

 

[gnjsdad]

Ender:

It is not Pope Francis who is driving a wedge; that is being done by those using his words to achieve political goals. There are church doctrines that are at odds with specific goals expressed by the Democrat party in the areas of abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage, etc. There are no doctrines at odds with any goal expressed by the GOP. What there are are differences of opinions about how to secure the generic ends toward which we are all obliged to work.

Ender

If that’s true, then I woder why so many conservatives are upset with the Pope.

 

[gracepoole]

So you are accusing someone of an agenda? They can see Voter’s guides about “non-negotiables” trashed, boiled down to politicians trying to pull some sort of trick to get votes? That is all being “pro-life” is about, this shallow way. Really, trashing pro-lifers as well as being gullible, not even something to do with the Church in this never-never land.

Yet, if one tries to TEACH the Church’s doctrines, we are suppose to be silent, it’s a trick to get votes somehow. I think it had everything to do with the issue.

That is a terrible mischaracterization of what I’ve argued thus far. It is defamation against a fellow Catholic who has already explained that she is pro-life. You’re now arguing against someone who agrees with the Church and with you. I suppose I’ll have to leave it there but it’s quite disappointing.

 

[Path_Finder]

Chris Cristie defunds Planned Parenthood, the biggest abortion provider in the US? What is this nation coming to? How terrible. Just think of the partial birth abortions that may not have happened.

 

[estesbob]

If that’s true, then I woder why so many conservatives are upset with the Pope.

They aren’t.

 

[ProVobis]

When I here such statements, I reflect on how our human nature judges other people by the plumb that is ourselves. People state that they “like this Pope” because he says things that are in line with their own reason. This is what we should expect of non-Catholics. I am concerned that Catholics do the same thing too often. We judge the pope as wrong when he disagrees with us and right when he agrees with us. We forget that we are not the standard by which the Holy Father is to be judged as a good pope or a bad pope.

I have no problem with this.

Personally, though, I feel betrayed. I tried and tried to defend the Democrats based on Stupak’s leading some 60 votes for pro-life. And I took heat for it, I’m sure, from a lot of the Republicans here. But hearing that the Democrats and atheists and others, “liking this Pope,” or like his priorities, or whatever, I in my right conscience cannot defend the Democrats any more. I don’t blame the Pope, however, he is what he is, he’s doing what he thinks is right, but I do blame the opportunists.