Pope Francis drives a wedge between Catholic Church, GOP

[Seamus_L]

You know, it’s really getting silly. As I’m sure everyone remembers, over 9 years ago when Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope Benedict, we had people implying that liberalism would now be considered negative, and now with Pope Francis as current Pope, being a conservative-traditionalist is now in the eyes of many people a no-no.

 

[Ender]

Is it really the case that the entire controversy between Francis and some conservative Republicans has been ginned up by those willfully distorting what the Pope says?

Pretty much.

The Pope says “X”, but some mysterious people with an ax to grind distort “X” into “Y” when “Y” riles up conservatives?

Are you unaware of the several significant distortions that have already appeared in translations of this pope’s documents? To be fair it should be acknowledged that “errors” in translation have appeared with some regularity…and with a consistent bias.

You are claiming that the dispute has been artificially created. I find this dubious. The dispute is real and, I believe, boils down to the Pope calling out those who refuse to shed their erroneous ideological blinders, especially in the social and economic sphere.

Provide an example.

Could it be that the Pope is calling out conservatives who are too harshly judgmental in the sexual sphere while they gloss over and in some cases are apologists for, a system that creates massive injustices in the economic arena?

First, the pope has not called out any group; he has not suggested that conservatives are too harshly judgmental about sexual issues, and he has not suggested that anyone is an apologist for economic injustice. Your assertions are based not on what Francis has actually said but on the interpretations given to his comments by others who apply them in ways that are politically advantageous. This is the point of the discussion. It is not what Francis has said but what he is said to have said that is driving the wedge.

Ender

 

[Path_Finder]

It appears that conservative Catholics are not really orthodox, rather, they are guilty of the same “cafeteria Catholicism” they accuse liberals of.

No one accuses anyone of anything, those are just your words. The Vatican makes clear that there are certain issues and principles we are to pay attention to. It’s not conservatives who turn this into a mudslinging contest to justify their own beliefs.

 

[Crossbones]

Torture and unjust wars are not part of the Republican platform.

They are not wedge issues.

Not being part of a platform doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen under the last Republican presidential administration.

 

[FollowChrist34]

It appears that conservative Catholics are not really orthodox, rather, they are guilty of the same “cafeteria Catholicism” they accuse liberals of.

Yes, I agree this is true to a certain extent. Both sides are guilty of being cafeteria Catholics. The liberals are perhaps more used to being bashed and called out about this; that’s the only real distinction I see. I don’t think anybody handles it particularly well; people just do the best they can…unless you want to introduce mind control you’re gonna have cafeteria Catholics…

 

[JimmyG88]

He has made any number of statements whose ambiguity have lent themselves to misuse. His “Who am I to judge” being a famous example. Bending other people’s words to their own purposes is an old practice, but Francis’s words have provided a bountiful harvest for those who are inclined to abuse them. I put it down to being less politically sensitive than his predecessors, but whatever the reason, being disappointed that such statements appear with some regularity is unsurprising. It is this that is the source of the whole idea that he is somehow driving a wedge between Catholics and Republicans. There is no truth to the assertion but a reasonable sounding case can be made.

Ender

I doubt very much if he is less politically sensitive than Pope Benedict who spent the majority of his life in academia and the Curia. And I would imagine that his politics are quite different to that of Pope John Paul as they clearly had different influences in terms of the regimes they lived under

 

[JimmyG88]

Torture and unjust wars are not part of the Republican platform.

They are not wedge issues.

I wouldn’t like to think Rumsfeld and Bush knew nothing about reduction and water boarding but …

 

[cena]

Yes, I agree this is true to a certain extent. Both sides are guilty of being cafeteria Catholics. The liberals are perhaps more used to being bashed and called out about this; that’s the only real distinction I see. I don’t think anybody handles it particularly well; people just do the best they can…unless you want to introduce mind control you’re gonna have cafeteria Catholics…

I haven’t read this thread, but other than torture what do conservatives believe that would make someone a Cafeteria Catholic

 

[Crossbones]

Yes, I agree this is true to a certain extent. Both sides are guilty of being cafeteria Catholics.

Or maybe we could admit that neither party in the United States follows Catholic teaching and Catholic voters are faced with a difficult choice because of it instead of insisting that one party is all holy and the other party is all evil.

 

[Darryl1958]

Not being part of a platform doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen under the last Republican presidential administration.

Nevertheless the topic is not how bad Bush was. The topic is wedge issues that Pope Francis is driving between himself and the GOP. Torture and unjust wars age not wedge issues.
It is not as if Pope Francis is against unjust wars and GOP are for unjust wars. Everybody is against unjust wars. Furthermore, if Francis even did raise the topic of unjust wars, that would involve the current CIC, Obama, and not the GOP and Bush.

These are not the wedge issues. They are simply rhetorical devises being thrown around on this thread.

 

[JimmyG88]

nevertheless the topic is not how bad bush was. The topic is wedge issues that pope francis is driving between himself and the gop. Torture and unjust wars age not wedge issues.
It is not as if pope francis is against unjust wars and gop are for unjust wars. Everybody is against unjust wars. Furthermore, if francis even did raise the topic of unjust wars, that would involve the current cic, obama, and not the gop and bush.

These are not the wedge issues. They are simply rhetorical devises being thrown around on this thread.

gop? Lol lol

 

[estesbob]

Like torture and unjust wars.

I don’t know of any party that supports torture and unjust wars. Pope Benedict, for example, said support of the Iraq and Afghani wars was a matter of prudential judgment.

 

[estesbob]

Or maybe we could admit that neither party in the United States follows Catholic teaching and Catholic voters are faced with a difficult choice because of it instead of insisting that one party is all holy and the other party is all evil.

I don’t find the choice difficult at all nor should anyone who has taken the time to learn Church teachings find it difficult. The Democrat Party platform fully embraces the culture of death. It stands in direct opposition to core moral teachings of the Church. There is nothing n the GOP platform that is contrary to Church teaching.

 

[Darryl1958]

I wouldn’t like to think Rumsfeld and Bush knew nothing about reduction and water boarding but …

It would be an interesting discussion to compare the ethics involved between dubious interrogation techniques, and a policy of droning suspected terrorists and their environs to death.

Still, this is not an issue that is driving a wedge between GOP and Francis.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I haven’t read this thread, but other than torture what do conservatives believe that would make someone a Cafeteria Catholic

1. Support for Iraq war (Benedict opposed) (I supported halfheartedly).
2. Opposition to gun control efforts. Support for and/or participation in proliferation of weapons in the US.
3. Opposition to immigration (I oppose immigration/amnesty.)
4. Opposition to efforts to combat climate change or in a larger sense, environmental protection. The environment is actually in better shape in the US now than it has been for over 50 years; this is due to environmentalists, certainly NOT to the Republican party who have fought much of the legislation and regulation that brought this about - though Republicans and their children enjoy and benefit from it as much as anyone else.
5. Laissez-faire capitalism (think “Mammon” “Golden Calf” Jesus telling the rich man to sell everything he owns if he wishes to enter the kingdom of God; Rich man walks away sad. Camel/eye of the needle; Two coats, give away one) Valuing money and the things of this world more than God. Idolatry. The Bible mentions the poor 2000 times (not my count); can’t list them all here. No laissez-faire capitalistic Pope has ever lived (well, maybe a few back in the bad days), certainly not in the last century. I agree they oppose socialism and communism (as do I) but also oppose materialism and consumerism of the West as “spiritual poverty” which contributes to global environmental and human exploitation, not to mention hedonism and secularism. I agree that individual charity is incredibly important here; I don’t think it precludes the need for regulated capitalism and support for those regulations. Again, the Popes and the CCC (social teaching) are with me here.
6. Support for torture.

 

[cena]

1. Support for Iraq war (Benedict opposed) (I supported halfheartedly).
2. Opposition to gun control efforts. Support for and/or participation in proliferation of weapons in the US.
3. Opposition to immigration (I oppose immigration/amnesty.)
4. Opposition to efforts to combat climate change or in a larger sense, environmental protection. The environment is actually in better shape in the US now than it has been for over 50 years; this is due to environmentalists, certainly NOT to the Republican party who have fought much of the legislation and regulation that brought this about - though Republicans and their children enjoy and benefit from it as much as anyone else.
5. Laissez-faire capitalism (think “Mammon” “Golden Calf” Jesus telling the rich man to sell everything he owns if he wishes to enter the kingdom of God; Rich man walks away sad. Camel/eye of the needle; Two coats, give away one) Valuing money and the things of this world more than God. Idolatry. The Bible mentions the poor 2000 times (not my count); can’t list them all here. No laissez-faire capitalistic Pope has ever lived (well, maybe a few back in the bad days), certainly not in the last century. I agree they oppose socialism and communism (as do I) but also oppose materialism and consumerism of the West as “spiritual poverty” which contributes to global environmental and human exploitation, not to mention hedonism and secularism. I agree that individual charity is incredibly important here; I don’t think it precludes the need for regulated capitalism and support for those regulations. Again, the Popes and the CCC (social teaching) are with me here.
6. Support for torture.

What is laissez-faire capitalism?

A lot of shootings happen in gun free zones, so are we supposed to be for gun control? Should we just carry around pepper spray or a taser instead for self defense

 

[JimmyG88]

It would be an interesting discussion to compare the ethics involved between dubious interrogation techniques, and a policy of droning suspected terrorists and their environs to death.

Still, this is not an issue that is driving a wedge between GOP and Francis.

We don’t seem to be able to discern what the Papacy Vs Republican Party actually are. I expect that water boarding and illegal war are among the issues. That added to naked regime change, differences over global warming, the nature and purpose of capitalism might start the discussion

 

[FollowChrist34]

What is laissez-faire capitalism?

A lot of shootings happen in gun free zones, so are we supposed to be for gun control? Should we just carry around pepper spray or a taser instead for self defense

lais·sez-faire
Economics
abstention by governments from interfering in the workings of the free market.
“laissez-faire capitalism”
synonyms: free enterprise, free trade, nonintervention, free-market capitalism, market forces

 

[JimmyG88]

What is laissez-faire capitalism?

A lot of shootings happen in gun free zones, so are we supposed to be for gun control? Should we just carry around pepper spray or a taser instead for self defense

What (just for arguments sake) they were made illegal and difficult to buy. A shooting in the UK is still headline news. Guns in the hands of criminals are relatively rare, but come in from Eastern Europe (many made in the US thanks guys)

 

[FollowChrist34]

What is laissez-faire capitalism?

A lot of shootings happen in gun free zones, so are we supposed to be for gun control? Should we just carry around pepper spray or a taser instead for self defense

My main point is we are all cafeteria Catholics; I have no problem getting in this line as I am likewise in the “sinner” line.