Pope Francis faces church divided over doctrine, global poll of Catholics finds

[Tomdstone]

Again, even though I think you are asking in a genuine manner, Im not able to answer. Sorry.

My point was that in the same manner Jesus Christ tells us that calling someone a fool out of anger in Matt. 5:22 is liable to the fires of hell, so might someone who knowing that the Church has condemned contraceptives, then says in their heart, “I believe contraceptives to be good and my God would never say that!”, be placing their soul at risk.

John the Baptist said, “woe to those who call good evil, and evil good.”

Only God is able to determine if a person fully rejected Him over something sinfull.

The fact that the Church has condemned contraceptives tells me how danderous they are to our faith. They have the ability to warp our relationship with Jesus.

Peace
Michael

It looks like you are right and it does say that you are liable to go to hell if you call someone a fool (Matt. 5:22). So perhaps it is then a mortal sin after all. My mistake.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Is weekly Mass attendance the only prerequisite to be practicing in your faith? Mark121359 stated all 5 of his Catholic co-workers attend Mass regularly but all favor SSM and contraception and more than half of them support a woman’s right to choose. Would they be considered practicing? Non-practicing? Practicing since they attend Mass regularly but dissenting?

When I have come across polls on issues like abortion and homosexual marriage on regular mass attendees the results are not 100% against, but they are usually lower in support for these things than polls on Catholics where no distinction is made in regards to Church attendance.

 

[rfournier103]

My 2 cents from a Protestant POV;

First, I think that is one of the draws of the RCC faith; the Pope and the Magisterium decide what is doctrine, dogma, etc… as leaders of the church, and they also decide how to present the information to the congregations.

Actually, doctrines and dogmas are decided by God in and from the Scriptures. The Church interprets the Scriptures and feeds and tends the lambs and sheep. For example;

1 Chron. 25:5 - God exalts His people by blessing them with many children. When married couples contracept, they are declaring “not your will God, but my will be done.”

Psalm 127:3-5 - children are a gift of favor from God and blessed is a full quiver. Married couples must always be open to God’s precious gift of life. Contraception, which shows a disregard for human life, has lead to the great evils of abortion, euthanasia, and infanticide.

Rom.1:26-27 - sexual acts without the possibility of procreation is sinful. Self-giving love is life-giving love, or the love is a lie. The unitive and procreative elements of marital love can never be divided, or the marital love is also divided, and God is left out of the marriage.

Second, I don’t think it is “Protestantism” that the RCC needs to be speaking out against, and teaching against, but rather Secularism. Conservative Protestants are far more united and inline with conservative practicing Catholics than secularists and non-practicing or cafeteria Catholics. Protestants, in short, aren’t “your” problem. If you turn your gaze to fellow Christians, it misses the point of what is happening to our culture, esp. here in the U.S.

I wholeheartedly agree. There are very large issues in society today that can’t wait until Christianity gets it’s house in order. Are there major divisions? Yes. Should we cooperate on social issues? Yes.

this translates to:

“Church is divided because proper teachings are not being adhered to.”

The church cannot be divided - simply because, you’re either in, or you’re out.
Those who are in disagreement are not in full communion. (obviously)…which means they are not in full communion with Christ himself.

I don’t think I have anything to add to that.

And let me just point out another obvious: Church teachings ought not to be based on polls, but be directly from God himself. We don’t need opinion polls, we the Sovereignty of Christ.

Yes, indeed.

 

[a_cermak]

Does that mean that the Roman Catholic Church should change its teaching on the use of contraceptives within marriage? Otherwise, aren’t a lot of people committing a mortal sin and not repenting? What are the consequences of dying with an unrepented mortal sin?

According to stats I’ve seen, most people will either die after menopause or will linger long enough in death to have a change of heart and make a good confession.

 

[a_cermak]

Is weekly Mass attendance the only prerequisite to be practicing in your faith? Mark121359 stated all 5 of his Catholic co-workers attend Mass regularly but all favor SSM and contraception and more than half of them support a woman’s right to choose. Would they be considered practicing? Non-practicing? Practicing since they attend Mass regularly but dissenting?

Is there a matter of orthopraxy at heart here. I mean, one can support gay marriage without having one; and one can support abortion but not have one or provide material cooperation therewith; for that matter, one can support contraceptive use without using it.

 

[a_cermak]

…

That said, intuitively there should be a correlation between the two, but frankly I wouldn’t know how to measure it. And furthermore, what does the poll desire to prove anyway?

One of the uses for such polls is politics. Let’s say the Spanish government is considering increasing access to contraception and a Bishop stands up and says I represent x millions of Catholics that do not want this. If the politicians know that only a small percentage of those millions are standing with the Bishop, they can discount his claims accordingly.

The Cardinals in Chicago used to try to pull that move (I represent x million Catholics) and once polling got a lot better, including polling that shows the true power of the Cardinal, it isn’t used much anymore.

 

[zz912]

t will be become obvious that I am not a theologian, but I am blessed with an abiding faith. I trust in The Lord. I do not lean on my own understanding, and I acknowledge Him in all ways.

The Spanish name Pilar originated in the miracle of the Virgin Mary’s appearance over a marble pillar and is an allusion to her as a pilar of the Church. In my humble opinion, when it comes to discerning the Will of God, the Holy Mother may be the second most important person in The Bible and the Annunciation may be the second most important miracle because it is the initiation of Jesus in human form.

“Many holy fathers (Sts. Jerome, Cyril, Ephrem, Augustine) say that the consent of Mary was essential to the redemption. It was the will of God, St. Thomas says (Summa III:30), that the redemption of mankind should depend upon the consent of the Virgin Mary. This does not mean that God in His plans was bound by the will of a creature, and that man would not have been redeemed, if Mary had not consented. It only means that the consent of Mary was foreseen from all eternity, and therefore was received as essential into the design of God.”

In my humble opinion, the consent of Mary demonstrates the God given free will of woman in the matter of procreation, and the Immaculate Conception demonstrates the Powerful Will of Almighty God. If God in His Almighty Power would choose not to impose pregnancy on the Mother of His Son, how can anyone impose pregnancy on any woman. Yet a woman of faith experiencing conception would with wisdom view that conception as a blessing from The Almighty, and respond as the Holy Mother, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy word.”

While I don’t know every objection that the Church has to the ordination of woman, the one of which I am aware is that there was no woman present at the Last Supper which was literally the first mass. However, it seems evident to me that the primary purpose of that event was to send the apostles out into the world to preach the Gospel and to build a Christian community. Given the social structure at the time, it would not have been acceptable for women to do that.

Over 2,000 years later, maybe it is time to take into consideration the Virgin Mary’s role in the Incarnation. Surely her faith demonstrates the appropriateness of women to be called in our time to the priesthood.

I wonder why the hierarchy of the Church does not look to the interactions between God Almighty and the Virgin Mary when charting the future of His Church and why, in light of God’s favor, they do not extend to the priesthood the contributions that women might make. I can only surmise that they do not recognize nor value the favor in which God Almighty held His handmaid Mary…

That isn’t the reason why the Church does not ordain women. The reason why is because the Church CANNOT ordain women. She doesn’t have that authority. Jesus is the one who set up the sacraments, and the Church cannot change what Christ decided.

The theological reasoning behind this is the nature of the priest when he acts “in persona Christi”, in the person of Christ. In the Mass the priest is offering up Christ as Himself to the Father.

I would suggest that you spend some serious time reflecting on why Jesus never made His mother a priest/bishop/apostle. And why Jesus never selected a woman to be an apostle. It wasn’t because Jesus was afraid of offending people, or afraid to go against customs. He did that all the time.

 

[zz912]

My 2 cents from a Protestant POV;

First, I think that is one of the draws of the RCC faith; the Pope and the Magisterium decide what is doctrine, dogma, etc… as leaders of the church, and they also decide how to present the information to the congregations.

The Pope and Magisterium do not decide doctrine or dogma. They merely declare what was given to them by God. (But I do understand your point).

Second, I don’t think it is “Protestantism” that the RCC needs to be speaking out against, and teaching against, but rather Secularism. Conservative protestants are far more united and inline with conservative practicing Catholics than secularists and non-practicing or cafeteria Catholics. Protestants, in short, aren’t “your” problem. If you turn your gaze to fellow Christians, it misses the point of what is happening to our culture, esp. here in the U.S.

It is true that secularism is something we should teach against, but we must also proclaim the WHOLE truth, and not just some of it. And part of that is that Protestantism does not have the whole truth, only some of it.

Religious culture in this country has a fundamental view that stems from Protestantism that the believer is the one who decides what is true. That is why people shop around for the church that matches their beliefs, instead of conforming their beliefs to God. The religious culture in America reflects a consumer’s mindset that we shop around for what we want to buy. And Catholics sadly have succumbed to this style of thinking, and have given rise to “cafeteria catholics” who pick and choose which beliefs they wish to hold.

 

[zz912]

What is it you think the Clergy lacks the courage to do?

The bishops and priests are afraid to speak about or teach against contraception, abortion, homosexual acts, and many other sexual sins. They don’t want to anger the congregation.

"I’m not afraid to admit that we have an internal catechetical challenge—a towering one—in convincing our own people of the moral beauty and coherence of what we teach. That’s a biggie,” said Dolan.

“**We have gotten gun-shy **. . . in speaking with any amount of cogency on chastity and sexual morality,” he added.

lifesitenews.com/news/ny-cardinal-dolan-says-church-failed-to-teach-doctrine-on-contraception

 

[Kliska]

The Pope and Magisterium do not decide doctrine or dogma. They merely declare what was given to them by God. (But I do understand your point).

The point is; the laity don’t believe they have direct access to the truth of God via God directly, but rather through the Pope and Magisterium who do have that access. Therefore you have a group of individuals who lay out formal teachings for the laity. The RCC has a much more organizational approach which can yield more clarity on what members of your church are supposed to support and believe.

It is true that secularism is something we should teach against, but we must also proclaim the WHOLE truth, and not just some of it. And part of that is that Protestantism does not have the whole truth, only some of it.

Religious culture in this country has a fundamental view that stems from Protestantism that the believer is the one who decides what is true. That is why people shop around for the church that matches their beliefs, instead of conforming their beliefs to God. The religious culture in America reflects a consumer’s mindset that we shop around for what we want to buy. And Catholics sadly have succumbed to this style of thinking, and have given rise to “cafeteria catholics” who pick and choose which beliefs they wish to hold.

I’m sorry, I don’t agree. Secularism does not arise from Protestantism, Secularism is a different beast that comes from a Naturalistic and Materialistic mindset. To focus on bible-believing protestants who are part of the Body of Christ is not the way to fight abortion. Focusing on bible-believing protestants is not the way to stop marriage from being redefined as between whoever wants to get hitched.

It would also be a mistake to blame protestants for cafeteria Catholics; we have our own problems, and enough that we are indeed actually responsible for. lol As I said, conservative Catholics and Protestants are much more in line than the liberals from any denomination. We are indeed to speak the truth in love to each other, but we should also recognize that it doesn’t do any good to help those outside of the body to help attack the very body we are a part of.

 

[tcjjmcf]

What is it you think the Clergy lacks the courage to do?

It is hard to believe you even have to ask the question. . .where to begin?

1. Clerical pedofile cover-up
2. Refusal to enforce Canon Law #915, i.e., admonish, denounce, exclude Catholics causing public scandle, e.g., Pelosi, Cumo, Sebellius, etc.
3. Catholic hospitals dispensing contraceptives and abortifacients and some catholic hospitals performing abortions.
4. Local parishes welcoming groups supporting SSM and LGTB.
5. Honoring Obama and others endorsing heresy at Notre Dame, Al Smith Dinner, Georgetown, etc.
6. Failure to enforce “moral contracts” at Catholic schools and institutions.
7. Bishop of Davenport allowing homosexual group to make presentation of scholarship to professed Catholic homosexual student at the school’s graduation ceremony.
8. The virtual absence of any Sunday preaching against contraception or hell for the last 50 years.
9. The fact that the majority of nominal Catholics voted for Obama, a professed endorser of late term abortion.
10. The failure of aggressive catechesis to correct the overwhelming ignorance of the Catholic population.
11. The closure of 2000 parishes over the past 20 years.
12. Only 25% of Catholics regularly attend Sunday mass and many of them are cafeteria Catholics.

One could go on ad nauseum with this list, but perhaps the really frightening thing is that it would seem that many of our clerical leaders are not even aware that we are in a desperate crisis. It’s high time the bishops drew the line in the sand and adopted a war footing, but that takes courage.

 

[Tomdstone]

The bishops and priests are afraid to speak about or teach against contraception, abortion, homosexual acts, and many other sexual sins. They don’t want to anger the congregation.

I thought that the job of a Catholic bishop was to teach, rule and sanctify? Has that been changed since Vatican II?

 

[Tomdstone]

According to stats I’ve seen, most people will either die after menopause or will linger long enough in death to have a change of heart and make a good confession.

Does using contraception with the intention of confessing it later on in life constitute the mortal sin of presumption, or is it OK to presume on God’s mercy now?

 

[Sy_Noe]

An earlier poster made mention of bishops saying they represent x millions Catholics and frequently I’ve seen Catholics tout among their numbers millions/billions in the US/worldwide. Yet when it comes to polls, Catholics seem to object when some of these they’ve counted among their numbers identify as such. This caused me to wonder. How can Catholics have it both ways? Counting people as Catholic but then objecting when they identify themselves as such in a poll? Or might it be time to lower the number of Catholics counted? Or for the Church to redefine what makes one Catholic? I realize the ultimate desire may be for the unfaithful to return to the faith. But in the meantime if the numbers of baptized and/or confirmed “Catholic” unfaithful were not considered to be Catholic or were not included in the number of Catholics, might not some be less inclined to identify themselves as such in a poll?

 

[McCall1981]

It is hard to believe you even have to ask the question. . .where to begin?

1. Clerical pedofile cover-up
2. Refusal to enforce Canon Law #915, i.e., admonish, denounce, exclude Catholics causing public scandle, e.g., Pelosi, Cumo, Sebellius, etc.
3. Catholic hospitals dispensing contraceptives and abortifacients and some catholic hospitals performing abortions.
4. Local parishes welcoming groups supporting SSM and LGTB.
5. Honoring Obama and others endorsing heresy at Notre Dame, Al Smith Dinner, Georgetown, etc.
6. Failure to enforce “moral contracts” at Catholic schools and institutions.
7. Bishop of Davenport allowing homosexual group to make presentation of scholarship to professed Catholic homosexual student at the school’s graduation ceremony.
8. The virtual absence of any Sunday preaching against contraception or hell for the last 50 years…
9. The fact that the majority of nominal Catholics voted for Obama, a professed endorser of late term abortion.
10. The failure of aggressive catechesis to correct the overwhelming ignorance of the Catholic population.
11. The closure of 2000 parishes over the past 20 years.
12. Only 25% of Catholics regularly attend Sunday mass and many of them are cafeteria Catholics.

One could go on ad nauseum with this list, but perhaps the really frightening thing is that it would seem that many of our clerical leaders are not even aware that we are in a desperate crisis. It’s high time the bishops drew the line in the sand and adopted a war footing, but that takes courage.

Ok, well I completely agree with you then

 

[Sy_Noe]

Does using contraception with the intention of confessing it later on in life constitute the mortal sin of presumption, or is it OK to presume on God’s mercy now?

What if with a contrite heart before they die they repent their use of contraception along with their presumption of mercy?

 

[HCTC]

That isn’t the reason why the Church does not ordain women. The reason why is because the Church CANNOT ordain women. She doesn’t have that authority. Jesus is the one who set up the sacraments, and the Church cannot change what Christ decided.

The theological reasoning behind this is the nature of the priest when he acts “in persona Christi”, in the person of Christ. In the Mass the priest is offering up Christ as Himself to the Father.

I would suggest that you spend some serious time reflecting on why Jesus never made His mother a priest/bishop/apostle. And why Jesus never selected a woman to be an apostle. It wasn’t because Jesus was afraid of offending people, or afraid to go against customs. He did that all the time.

I did not mean to suggest that Jesus would have been concerned about offending sensibilities by choosing a woman apostle. I meant to say that a woman would not have been successful…would not have had the resources to be successful… A woman probably would not have been able to travel alone… Maybe the reason that Jesus did not send Mother Mary (or any other woman) as His apostle is the same reason that He cautioned his apostles thusly: “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.”

 

[PTL]

Truth never comes from poll. Doctrine is not decided by voting. Poll is meaningless to true disciples.

 

[rcwitness]

The point is; the laity don’t believe they have direct access to the truth of God via God directly,

This is not Taught by the Church, however. It is a HUGE misconception. We all have an obligation to directly approach God, for He has directly approached us (though, not all things are revealed to us directly and outside the rest of the body). It is the Father who beckons us to His Son. We should seek Him personally, with a pure heart. By doing this, we would never be directed away from what has been Taught by the Magisterium. What the Laity does not have, is the authority to bind or lose anything on the whole Body.

but rather through the Pope and Magisterium who do have that access. Therefore you have a group of individuals who lay out formal teachings for the laity.

This is the authority to bind and lose Jesus gave to the Apostles and their successors. Its not so much ‘access’ but Ministry.

The RCC has a much more organizational approach which can yield more clarity on what members of your church are supposed to support and believe.

That is the essence of Confirmation …we can be Confirmed by the Father through the Holy Spirit and Jesus in His Mystical Body

Peace, and thanks for your genuiness,
Michael

 

[Tomdstone]

What if with a contrite heart before they die they repent their use of contraception along with their presumption of mercy?

So it is OK to presume on God’s mercy and to assume that you will have that opportunity?