Pope, in interview, laments 'rigidity' of youth who prefer Latin Mass [CWN]

[JimG]

A must read, especially in light of Pope Francis’ comments.

google.com/amp/s/liturgyguy.com/2016/05/14/a-young-priest-sets-the-record-straight-for-the-catholic-left/amp/

An interesting response by a newly ordained priest to comments made in an interview with the National Catholic Reporter by his former seminary rector, who apparently viewed some of his seminarians as too traditionalist.

“Myself and the other men who were indirectly insulted in this interview are the ones on the battlefield. As parish priests, we work hard, sacrifice hard, and try daily to live solely for God in Jesus Christ. Instead of insinuating that Theological College had to somehow put up with a decade or more of rigid, overly-conservative, and ideological seminarians, why not offer us a word of encouragement and perhaps even a prayer or two?”

 

[Bill_Martin]

Assuming this is an accurate representation of what he said, I don’t think the Pope understands the dynamics at many US parishes. I will give some examples.

There is a parish near me that is spritually dead. Others are on life support. There are many places where Sunday Mass consists of a comatose congregation, spiritually spineless hymns that are about us rather than God, and tepid homilies. This is part of a larger trend in society of casualness. Nothing in our secular culture is sacred, and everything is marketed to us in order for us to choose between them. We become the focus of our lives, as it is our preferences that govern our actions.

Some parishes seem overly focused on making the Mass attractive through rock bands, unoffensive homilies that don’t challenge anyone, and an inordinate focus on making the congregation happy. The problem is that it seems artificial. It seems like marketing. It seems like the focus is still on us despite being in the physical presence of our Lord.

What’s fascinating is that this is an emerging phenomenon in Protestant communities, with many younger Christians seeking out Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican services. Here are some excellent articles about it

theamericanconservative.com/articles/why-millennials-long-for-liturgy/

millennialpastor.net/2014/10/07/confessions-of-a-high-church-millennial/

This feeling is absolutely true within the Catholic Church too. Why are we surprised when people seek a Mass where the sacred is treated as sacred? While this can be the OF in a good parish, it tends to be the EF mainly because the kind of people and priests who seek it out are serious about their faith.

The youth who did not grow up attending the Latin Mass are there because they are in search of something that is missing. It’s not a shallow worship-of-worship; it’s a desire for worship to be worshipful. It’s a desire to not be the center, to not be catered to, to be challenged, and to humbly approach the Throne of Grace. The EF is seen as timeless and reverent; it’s not trying to persuade people to come to church. The music is not just a loose adaptation of the kind of music you can hear on the radio.

Can the OF be done in such a way? Absolutely, and it often is in good parishes. But I suspect that the people who are driving for 40 minutes (passing 3 or 4 Catholic churches along the way) every Sunday to find the EF Mass are not in such a parish.

 

[Evelyn40]

Assuming this is an accurate representation of what he said, I don’t think the Pope understands the dynamics at many US parishes. I will give some examples.

There is a parish near me that is spritually dead. Others are on life support. There are many places where Sunday Mass consists of a comatose congregation, spiritually spineless hymns that are about us rather than God, and tepid homilies. This is part of a larger trend in society of casualness. Nothing in our secular culture is sacred, and everything is marketed to us in order for us to choose between them. We become the focus of our lives, as it is our preferences that govern our actions.

Some parishes seem overly focused on making the Mass attractive through rock bands, unoffensive homilies that don’t challenge anyone, and an inordinate focus on making the congregation happy. The problem is that it seems artificial. It seems like marketing. It seems like the focus is still on us despite being in the physical presence of our Lord.

What’s fascinating is that this is an emerging phenomenon in Protestant communities, with many younger Christians seeking out Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican services. Here are some excellent articles about it

theamericanconservative.com/articles/why-millennials-long-for-liturgy/

millennialpastor.net/2014/10/07/confessions-of-a-high-church-millennial/

This feeling is absolutely true within the Catholic Church too. Why are we surprised when people seek a Mass where the sacred is treated as sacred? While this can be the OF in a good parish, it tends to be the EF mainly because the kind of people and priests who seek it out are serious about their faith.

The youth who did not grow up attending the Latin Mass are there because they are in search of something that is missing. It’s not a shallow worship-of-worship; it’s a desire for worship to be worshipful. It’s a desire to not be the center, to not be catered to, to be challenged, and to humbly approach the Throne of Grace. The EF is seen as timeless and reverent; it’s not trying to persuade people to come to church. The music is not just a loose adaptation of the kind of music you can hear on the radio.

Can the OF be done in such a way? Absolutely, and it often is in good parishes. But I suspect that the people who are driving for 40 minutes (passing 3 or 4 Catholic churches along the way) every Sunday to find the EF Mass are not in such a parish.

No offense intended, but I just can’t wrap my head around this attitude. I think we should be a little more suspicious of these youngsters who focus on ornament rather than substance. It really seems like they’re coming because of the aesthetic, maybe their video games and television programs like Game of Thrones and Narnia are inspiring them to some older image of the Church that we’ve progressed from. Perhaps if we address this behavior more they’ll start returning to their humble neighborhood parish instead of traveling miles away to a church because of its grandeur. Sacredness certainly doesn’t flee simply because of the occasional rock song, it’s a shame but I imagined a future where the later generations would understand this most of all.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No offense intended, but I just can’t wrap my head around this attitude. I think we should be a little more suspicious of these youngsters who focus on ornament rather than substance. It really seems like they’re coming because of the aesthetic, maybe their video games and television programs like Game of Thrones and Narnia are inspiring them to some older image of the Church that we’ve progressed from. Perhaps if we address this behavior more they’ll start returning to their humble neighborhood parish instead of traveling miles away to a church because of its grandeur. Sacredness certainly doesn’t flee simply because of the occasional rock song, it’s a shame but I imagined a future where the later generations would understand this most of all.

What an uncharitable view of people!

 

[edwest2]

I’m just guessing here, but there was a period following the Council when not only the liturgy but also catechesis suffered at the hands of some who took it upon themselves to discern the “spirit of Vatican II.” I think that some young people who came of age during that period may feel that they were in some ways denied their inheritance. I have on occasion heard some young person remark with astonishment about some doctrine they had just discovered—something that formerly would have been covered in elementary school.

There were dissidents inside and outside the Church who sought to wreck it starting in the late 1960s, and they used a scapegoat - Vatican II. I was there. A few words from someone else who was there.

Pope Benedict

"In the first place, there is the fear that the document detracts from the authority of the Second Vatican Council, one of whose essential decisions – the liturgical reform – is being called into question.

"This fear is unfounded. In this regard, it must first be said that the Missal published by Paul VI and then republished in two subsequent editions by John Paul II, obviously is and continues to be the normal Form – the Forma ordinaria – of the Eucharistic Liturgy. The last version of the Missale Romanum prior to the Council, which was published with the authority of Pope John XXIII in 1962 and used during the Council, will now be able to be used as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgical celebration. It is not appropriate to speak of these two versions of the Roman Missal as if they were “two Rites”. Rather, it is a matter of a twofold use of one and the same rite.

“As for the use of the 1962 Missal as a Forma extraordinaria of the liturgy of the Mass, I would like to draw attention to the fact that this Missal was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted. At the time of the introduction of the new Missal, it did not seem necessary to issue specific norms for the possible use of the earlier Missal. Probably it was thought that it would be a matter of a few individual cases which would be resolved, case by case, on the local level. Afterwards, however, it soon became apparent that a good number of people remained strongly attached to this usage of the Roman Rite, which had been familiar to them from childhood. This was especially the case in countries where the liturgical movement had provided many people with a notable liturgical formation and a deep, personal familiarity with the earlier Form of the liturgical celebration. We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level. Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.”

Ed

 

[Evelyn40]

What an uncharitable view of people!

Don’t get me wrong, I’m just saying if they’re coming for the wrong reasons they need help and prayers to correct themselves. Otherwise they’ll simply jump ship to the next religion with an aesthetic that pleases them.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The problem would be with anybody taking simply his or her experience and perceptions, which are not necessarily correct, of a certain group and saying that they were, oh let’s say, ‘stuck up’ because they liked something, and applying those ‘perceptions’ to any person who liked that thing. “Those people were stuck up about liking X. Therefore all people who like X are stuck up.”

Sort of like saying that because you went to an opera in your nearby big city, and you overheard a bunch of people talking in what seemed to you to be a superior, condescending, elitist way, that all people who liked opera were superior, condescending and elitist, because “that the way these opera people are. I know, I 'heard them.”

After the years of experience that I have had dating back to Quattuor abhinc annos and most especially after Ecclesia Dei but, actually, that go back even to groups existing before these provisions…No. The comparison you make to overhearing people at an opera and drawing extrapolated conclusions just fails.

We are talking about now more than thirty years of interactions with groups and with individuals within those groups. There is more than sufficient basis for making assessments.

In my case, we are also talking about interactions that take the observer across multiple Mass communities in multiple countries…that show there are issues that are endemic.

I agree with what Oneofhewomen wrote. Absolutely.

More than that, the Pope has expressed very valid experiences about what should be a very deep and profound pastoral concern for anyone, bishop or priest, who has governance in the Church and whose pastoral care concerns those who petitioning for provisions under Summorum Pontificum.

The letter from Pope Benedict to the world’s bishops that accompanied Summorum Pontificum invited the bishops, in the years ahead, to manifest their experiences and their concerns, above all given the objections many had already expressed with regard to these provisions concerning the vetus ordo.
Furthermore, I invite you, dear Brothers, to send to the Holy See an account of your experiences, three years after this Motu Proprio has taken effect.
Hopefully, this will be continue to be an ongoing and increasing process of examination, evaluation, and adjustment as needed engaging every bishop and the dicasteries of the Holy See.

 

[bilop]

No offense intended, but I just can’t wrap my head around this attitude. I think we should be a little more suspicious of these youngsters who focus on ornament rather than substance. It really seems like they’re coming because of the aesthetic, maybe their video games and television programs like Game of Thrones and Narnia are inspiring them to some older image of the Church that we’ve progressed from. Perhaps if we address this behavior more they’ll start returning to their humble neighborhood parish instead of traveling miles away to a church because of its grandeur. Sacredness certainly doesn’t flee simply because of the occasional rock song, it’s a shame but I imagined a future where the later generations would understand this most of all.

Offense may not be intended, but that’s very insulting to young Catholics.

The way we pray, affects how we believe. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. If we treat the Mass with casualness, lack of dignity, and lack of grandeur, it causes us to treat God that way, and religion that way.

God Bless

 

[Tantum_ergo]

After the years of experience that I have had dating back to Quattuor abhinc annos and most especially after Ecclesia Dei but, actually, that go back even to groups existing before these provisions…No. The comparison you make to overhearing people at an opera and drawing extrapolated conclusions just fails.

We are talking about now more than thirty years of interactions with groups and with individuals within those groups. There is more than sufficient basis for making assessments.

In my case, we are also talking about interactions that take the observer across multiple Mass communities in multiple countries…that show there are issues that are endemic.

I agree with what Oneofhewomen wrote. Absolutely.

More than that, the Pope has expressed very valid experiences about what should be a very deep and profound pastoral concern for anyone, bishop or priest, who has governance in the Church and whose pastoral care concerns those who petitioning for provisions under Summorum Pontificum.

The letter from Pope Benedict to the world’s bishops that accompanied Summorum Pontificum invited the bishops, in the years ahead, to manifest their experiences and their concerns, above all given the objections many had already expressed with regard to these provisions concerning the vetus ordo.
Furthermore, I invite you, dear Brothers, to send to the Holy See an account of your experiences, three years after this Motu Proprio has taken effect.
Hopefully, this will be continue to be an ongoing and increasing process of examination, evaluation, and adjustment as needed engaging every bishop and the dicasteries of the Holy See.

Father, my remark was not directed at you and I’m sorry you apparently thought it was!!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No offense intended, but I just can’t wrap my head around this attitude. I think we should be a little more suspicious of these youngsters who focus on ornament rather than substance. It really seems like they’re coming because of the aesthetic, maybe their video games and television programs like Game of Thrones and Narnia are inspiring them to some older image of the Church that we’ve progressed from. Perhaps if we address this behavior more they’ll start returning to their humble neighborhood parish instead of traveling miles away to a church because of its grandeur. Sacredness certainly doesn’t flee simply because of the occasional rock song, it’s a shame but I imagined a future where the later generations would understand this most of all.

Grandeur? The EF can be (and is) celebrated in everything from cathedrals (which you seem to think is the only place) to a ‘regular parish church’ in which the OF is also offered, to what amounts to tents (Google the monks of Norcia, who are celebrating now following the destruction of their church of St. Benedict in Italy).

I think your assumptions are based on a lack of knowledge (not your fault) and perhaps a natural aesthetic on your part.

We don’t 'progress from older images of the Church". We march on through time in UNITY with all images of the Church, from the homes of the apostles to the catacombs, from the earliest churches in Africa to Europe, to the Americas, to Asia, and full circle again.

 

[pnewton]

If we treat the Mass with casualness, lack of dignity, and lack of grandeur, it causes us to treat God that way, and religion that way.

God Bless

I agree with two out of three. I am not a believe in the third being relevant, seeing how the first incarnation happened in a stable. I guess a sense of the grand and the dramatic can be useful though, as it appeals and makes seeing the presence of God easier. Just realize the same argument can be made for modern, emotionally appealing music.

 

[JimG]

I do think that this young priest’s comments here are well worth pondering. He’s not involved in a march to the past. He, and others like him, just want to be priests serving the Church and the people.

“As difficult as it is at times, I love being a priest with my whole heart. Not because it offers me an exalted status or any privileges, but because it offers me, and the people I serve, the means by which to attain salvation. I love the people I serve to death, and I would do anything within my means to help them. If you look at my cassock and presume otherwise, I can only feel sorry for you.”

 

[pnewton]

No offense intended, but I just can’t wrap my head around this attitude. I think we should be a little more suspicious of these youngsters who focus on ornament rather than substance. It really seems like they’re coming because of the aesthetic,

I guess I am kind of a believer in making it easier to come before God. If that takes Latin and Gregorian Chant, great. If it takes mariachi music, fine. If it takes Contemporary Christian music, still all good. If God can leave Heaven and take on flesh, we should not despair of such accommodations. Think of it like the bells at the elevation of the Host. They are not magical. They focus the attention.

 

[bilop]

I agree with two out of three. I am not a believe in the third being relevant, seeing how the first incarnation happened in a stable. I guess a sense of the grand and the dramatic can be useful though, as it appeals and makes seeing the presence of God easier. Just realize the same argument can be made for modern, emotionally appealing music.

Well, by grandeur I mean we give God our best. If our best is a rented gym, or the hood of a jeep in wartime, that’s just fine.

But, if we’re in a rich country, and can afford beautiful building, and art, and vestments, to glorify God, then we owe that to God.

God Bless

 

[Thomas_White]

I guess I am kind of a believer in making it easier to come before God. If that takes Latin and Gregorian Chant, great. If it takes mariachi music, fine. If it takes Contemporary Christian music, still all good. If God can leave Heaven and take on flesh, we should not despair of such accommodations. Think of it like the bells at the elevation of the Host. They are not magical. They focus the attention.

With all due respect, as a former altar boy who in his youth rang those bells during hundreds of daily and Sunday Tridentine Masses, I disagree. It was magical.

 

[Bill_Martin]

No offense intended, but I just can’t wrap my head around this attitude. I think we should be a little more suspicious of these youngsters who focus on ornament rather than substance. It really seems like they’re coming because of the aesthetic, maybe their video games and television programs like Game of Thrones and Narnia are inspiring them to some older image of the Church that we’ve progressed from. Perhaps if we address this behavior more they’ll start returning to their humble neighborhood parish instead of traveling miles away to a church because of its grandeur. Sacredness certainly doesn’t flee simply because of the occasional rock song, it’s a shame but I imagined a future where the later generations would understand this most of all.

You are completely misunderstanding the phenomenon. It’s not the aesthetics that attract people to the EF; it’s precisely the substance of it.

My parish is half empty at the start of Mass. It’s full 10 minutes later. It’s half empty again after Communion. People carry on loud conversations inside the church. It’s to the point where the priests are now asking people to stay until the end. The lyrics of the hymns make only a passing mention of God. Dressing well for Mass is nonexistant. A non-Catholic observing us would never in a million years think that we actually believe we are in the real, physical presence of the Lord.

These are not aesthetic problems. They are a sign that we don’t believe what we say we believe. Someone who is serious about their faith is going to go to a place where it is supported and grows. The EF attracts these people, and like-minded parishioners who treat the Mass as something more significant than just a social gathering that’s nice to do on Sundays.

 

[edwest2]

Offense may not be intended, but that’s very insulting to young Catholics.

The way we pray, affects how we believe. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. If we treat the Mass with casualness, lack of dignity, and lack of grandeur, it causes us to treat God that way, and religion that way.

God Bless

Exactly true. When we attend Church, we are entering the House of God. He resides in the Tabernacle which should be on the altar at the end of the middle aisle, not just placed anywhere. We wear our Sunday best, we behave with dignity during the Mass knowing we are in God’s presence and we have the realization of the sacred in our hearts - that Jesus was, and is, True God and True Man and is alive, now. Never changing. The grandeur is meant to glorify not us but God and add to the sacredness of the Mass, since we see the statues, the images and that brings us into a spirit of worship. It puts our minds on the things of God.

Standing before the Lord is not meant to be a casual thing. Not in Church.

Ed

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Father, my remark was not directed at you and I’m sorry you apparently thought it was!!

No, he is agreeing with what I said, and to the reply you gave to me.

Thank you Dom Ruggero. I don’t mind people not agreeing with me, but the dismissive attitude of some here to very real experiences that others deal with is astounding to me. It would almost be comical if it did not prove the exact point t of this thread. I guess irony is lost on people who don’t want dialogue.

 

[KSU]

No offense intended, but I just can’t wrap my head around this attitude. I think we should be a little more suspicious of these youngsters who focus on ornament rather than substance.

I don’t mean to pile on, I hope only to understand.

So, could you explain why you are dismayed at the other side’s position–what you call “attitude”? Didn’t the reasons given by St. JP II and B XVI (see Post 208) ever satisfy your questions about why a lot of people of all ages, who like both the OF and EF (if they are faithfully celebrated), prefer the EF ?

Moreover, from VC II to the present, the intention of the Church has been to preserve the use of Latin and Gregorian Chant in the Mass of the Roman Rite, even when offered in the vernacular. For the most part, that instruction has been, let’s say, “overlooked”. Doesn’t that give you pause?

For that and other reasons, preference for the EF continues to grow. It’s not a wrongly formed “attitude”, it’s a longing for what rightfully belongs to the people who want to worship God in the Flesh, actually present at the Mass, with words and music designed especially for that purpose .

Popular modern songs, youth bands and self-centered Schutte-type tunes are the real ornaments meant to attract youngsters. It hasn’t worked and it’s contrary to the type of music VC II instructed us as to what is appropriate.

I hope you can think it over and cut the kids (of all ages) some slack.

youtube.com/watch?v=NyV01zXuW-A

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, he is agreeing with what I said, and to the reply you gave to me.

Thank you Dom Ruggero. I don’t mind people not agreeing with me, but the dismissive attitude of some here to very real experiences that others deal with is astounding to me. It would almost be comical if it did not prove the exact point t of this thread. I guess irony is lost on people who don’t want dialogue.

Are you saying I had a ‘dismissive’ attitude?

And it seems to me that (I’m not directing this at you personally) there are quite a few people who have a ‘dismissive attitude’ toward people who have also had ‘very real experiences’ that are poles apart from those experienced by others. I agree, it would be comical if it weren’t sad. . .and the irony is that the ones calling others ‘rigid’ are kind of proving they are more than a bit rigid themselves. . .