Pope says he's saddened by 'perfect' Catholics who despise others

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BroIgnatius said:
No one is being defensive and no conscience has been pricked. That is mere presumption. One can make a criticism out of reason and not emotion, you know.

Making a genuine criticism is not lack of love, lack of fidelity to the Church or to the Pope as Vicar of Christ. At the same time we need to not commit an idolatry about the Pope, as Cardinal Burke talked about.

Are you St. Paul or St. Catherine? Well, actually yes, in a way. We are to follow their example. That is why the Church has given us the Saints. And, I might add, Canon Law gives us the actual right to do so:

I have a brilliant idea! Why don’t we debate the issues instead of judging, accusing others, and presuming upon emotional states (a rash judgement) of others in the room and posting all kinds of subtexts. Debate the topic, not the person. If you disagree with someone then make your argument and back it up. I think that is a wonderful idea. Don’t you?
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Yes. I do think that is a wonderful idea. 👍
 
shockerfan said:
So did I state anything in error?

Here is good article on the subject of the different levels of magisterial teaching and the level of submission due to each one. Its a good summary from a number of Church documents

catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching.html

I certainly agree that the pope does not have to issue an “ex cathedra” statement to have an infallible pronouncement. I think you’ll like the article.

There are limits to his infallibility…example: The pope is not infallible on matters of science.
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I have not seen any bishop approve that organization, so I don’t read their website.
 
wild_thing said:
I’m alarmed by the tenor of this thread. The Pope gives his weekly talk about how Jesus forgave the sinful woman while the scribes and Pharisees murmur against her, illustrating his remark by saying that we as Christians need to remember that we are all sinners, that we are all in need of mercy, and that we need to extend that mercy to others.

I believe it’s an invitation for all of us to reflect on our attitudes and search our consciences thoroughly for the times when we have acted like the Elder Brother from the parable of the Prodigal Son, or the Pharisee in the parable of the Publican.

If you feel that the Pope is speaking directly to you, maybe your defensiveness means that something has hit a little too close to home and needs to be reflected on and prayed about. How else can we grow if the Holy Spirit doesn’t prick our consciences from time to time?

As for criticizing the Pope and pointing out that St. Paul and St. Catherine of Siena corrected their popes- what are you saying? Are you a St. Paul or a Saint Catherine? Really? Besides the fact that they always tried to help guide the popes with charity, they lived in different times. Since Jesus told this very same Saint Catherine that no one was to criticize and judge His priests, that judgement of them was for Him alone, it worries me that people feel free to lambast Pope Francis. I urge you all to take his comments with a grain of salt, remembering that he promised to help the poor, the marginalized, the weak, and the despised, just like St. Francis before him and Jesus before that. Why are you scandalized when his homilies and talks do just that?

Pray very much for our Pope. His ability to be ruled and guided by the Holy Spirit rests on the strength of our prayers. If you feel he is lacking as a ruler, what prayers and sacrifices are you making on his behalf to God? Are you fasting non-stop like St. Catherine did, or enduring beatings and whippings like St. Paul? Until you have offered up sufferings, prayers, and alms on behalf of a person you do not like very much, you haven’t loved as Jesus has loved- with complete generosity and selflessness.
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Very well said.
 
Yes, when A is disagreeing with the Pope over something A thinks the Pope got wrong, then A thinks of themself as being all righteous like the saints.

But when B is disagreeing with the Pope over something A thinks the Pope (or the previous Pope if he’s the one who pronounced on it) got right, then A is quick to call B a “cafeteria Catholic” and blame B for the alleged sorry state of the Church today.

Kind of reminds me of Ben Franklin in 1776 talking about the difference between “our revolution” (always right!) and “their revolution” (always a crime!)

P.S. I pray for the Pope all the time, and have recently thrown in a few for the Pope Emeritus as well. I don’t agree with either of them all the time but they have more information than I do about the state of the Church when they make their decisions, and I think being Pope must be a very hard job. You can’t please everyone in such a huge Church.
 
PluniaZ said:
I have not seen any bishop approve that organization, so I don’t read their website.
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Uh, the article cites numerous Church documents…was written by a Catholic brother…and directly quotes Popes on the various sub-subjects of Papal infallibility.

At a minimum, you might learn about the various Church documents related to the topic.
 
JimR-OCDS said:

More

Jim
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I must be blessed. I’ve rarely run accross the type of Catholic the pope is referring to. Almost every catholic I’ve ever met needs confession, and needs the penitential rite at Mass. I’ve never witnessed one that I said to myself, “they are perfect”
Or even, they think they are perfect. However I have seen many Protestants who take that view.
 
PluniaZ said:
No one is suggesting the Pope is sinless.

But neither Vatican I nor any other council imposed limits on the Pope’s supremacy or infallibilty. It is ancient tradition, thoroughly cited in the canons of Vatican I, that the Pope has never erred.

This makes life very simple for Catholics: All we need to do is obey the Pope. We don’t have to worry whether he is right or wrong. Jesus has entrusted the successors of Peter with feeding his sheep, and all we, as simple sheep, need to do is follow our pastor, the Bishop of Rome.

But like the parable of the tares, an enemy has sown lies among Catholics, teaching that they can freely ignore the Pope unless he is teaching ex cathedra. Which has led to the internet today becoming a cesspool of schismatic self-appointed teachers who think they know the faith better than the Vicar of Jesus Christ.

One need only look at the Arians, Nestorians, monophysites, iconoclasts, schismatic easterners, protestants, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unitarians, Muslims and atheists to see the fruit of not following the Pope.
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There is no way you believe what you wrote. You are saying that all catholic must blindly follow what ever the pope says, right or wrong. When are catholic like you going to start claiming if you dont obey the pope , even if he is wrong, your soul is in peril?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
I must be blessed. I’ve rarely run accross the type of Catholic the pope is referring to. Almost every catholic I’ve ever met needs confession, and needs the penitential rite at Mass. I’ve never witnessed one that I said to myself, “they are perfect”
Or even, they think they are perfect. However I have seen many Protestants who take that view.
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Me either. I guess I’m just gonna have to try and look harder for them.
 
shockerfan said:
Uh, the article cites numerous Church documents…was written by a Catholic brother…and directly quotes Popes on the various sub-subjects of Papal infallibility.

At a minimum, you might learn about the various Church documents related to the topic.
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That organization clearly has an agenda, and gives itself a name that sounds like a religious order, “Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary”, and no religious order is allowed that is not approved by the Pope.

So I will not have anything to do with them.
 
philipl said:
There is no way you believe what you wrote. You are saying that all catholic must blindly follow what ever the pope says, right or wrong. When are catholic like you going to start claiming if you dont obey the pope , even if he is wrong, your soul is in peril?
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It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

papalencyclicals.net/bon08/b8unam.htm
 
Amen. It’s always amazing to me that the people who crow the loudest about tradition and obedience are the biggest dissenters and disobedient people to the Pope. :mad:
 
Irishmom2 said:
This is how a Brother speaks about the Pope? Really?
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You are right IM.
AS I advised contributors on two recent topics (which were removed from CAF Forum) Ignatius is not a real “Brother”.

He has in fact merely made private personal vows (which any unmarried Catholic could do tomorrow if they wished) nor is he a member of a Diocesan or Vatican approved Congregation of Religious.

For most born and bred Catholics that does not qualify Ignatius (aka “Brother Bubba”) to go around publicly with the title and expect the due deference and authoritative edge normally accorded a true Religious.

His public statement below against the Pope is a clear indication of the personal nature of his title and his “brotherhood” which means he is basically a law unto himself rather than a Roman approved Superior and “chain of command” expected of Religious who has publically vowed to obey.

But if contributors here wish to accord Ignatius the title on the basis of his proven wisdom and holiness don’t let me stop you.
I simply observe that there is sufficient information on the Net for interested contributors to research for themselves and conclude otherwise - if his statements on CAF are not themselves proof he exhibits neither of the above qualities to the expected degree.

Decide for yourselves from CAF alone:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=486240

I observe that Catholic contributors may press the triangular “!” top right corner of any concerning posts they encounter on CAF and advise the mod that one of the basic rules of CAF has been breached (discourtesy or denigration of the Catholic Clergy or Religious) if they are concerned.
"Negative and rude comments toward CAF members, clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned. "
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Forum Rules in this regard are:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14313470&highlight=rules+clergy+charitable#post14313470
Negative and rude comments toward CAF members, clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) or toward religious and religious orders are banned.
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You may not make disparaging remarks about:
Vatican II
Clergy (deacons, priests and bishops) of any group
Religious (brothers, sisters, and nuns) of any order or congregation
Lawful actions and disciiplines by the Church including the historical excommunication of the SSPX. It happened. Rome explained why it happened. End of story. Rome did not put it out there for debate by the faithful.
Another poster or his/her ideas. You can disagree. You cannot attack,insult, ridicule or dismiss as unimportant. His opinion is as important to him as your opinion is to you.
Parishes, pastors, civil leaders.
Other religions – if you’re unsure how to speak in public about other faiths, look at the Pope Benedict XVI. He is fraternal, polite, and intellectual in discussing religious differences.
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Hoosier_Daddy said:
I must be blessed. I’ve rarely run accross the type of Catholic the pope is referring to. Almost every catholic I’ve ever met needs confession, and needs the penitential rite at Mass. I’ve never witnessed one that I said to myself, “they are perfect”
Or even, they think they are perfect. However I have seen many Protestants who take that view.
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The Pope is speaking about people who THINK they are perfect. No one is perfect, but I have met MANY, who believe they cannot be wrong about anything.
I think you have too. 😉
 
PluniaZ said:
That organization clearly has an agenda, and gives itself a name that sounds like a religious order, “Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary”, and no religious order is allowed that is not approved by the Pope.

So I will not have anything to do with them.
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Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are a religious order. They are listed on the Website of the Diocese of Worchester, MA

worcesterdiocese.org/religious-communities

Are you sure they are “not approved by the pope”?

And yes, according to their website, they do have an agenda:
“Welcome to the monastery of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, two separate communities of Brothers and Sisters living traditional religious lives in the spirituality of Saint Louis Marie de Montfort’s “True Devotion to Mary.” We are faithful to the Holy Father, Pope Francis, and loyal to the Latin Tridentine Mass which is offered daily here in Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel”

Be careful! If you standard to even read someone’s writings about the faith is that they be “approved by the pope”, we’ll have to hold you to the same standard. Please provide proof your posts and opinions about the faith are approved by the pope!
 
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