Pope says he's saddened by 'perfect' Catholics who despise others

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BroIgnatius said:
I have a brilliant idea! Why don’t we debate the issues instead of judging, accusing others, and presuming upon emotional states (a rash judgement) of others in the room and posting all kinds of subtexts. Debate the topic, not the person. If you disagree with someone then make your argument and back it up. I think that is a wonderful idea. Don’t you?
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Well, so much for that brilliant idea. Ah well! :banghead: 🤷

Don’t mind me. Get back to the :slapfight: and don’t forget to give me :blackeye: It wouldn’t be a proper discussion without that. Ah Well!
 
shockerfan said:
Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are a religious order. They are listed on the Website of the Diocese of Worchester, MA

worcesterdiocese.org/religious-communities

Are you sure they are “not approved by the pope”?
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PluniaZ:
That organization clearly has an agenda, and gives itself a name that sounds like a religious order, “Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary”, and no religious order is allowed that is not approved by the Pope.

So I will not have anything to do with them.
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Just note: most communities are recognized by the bishop, not the Pope. Only communities with a global presence are generally given recognition by the Holy See.

And, even the ones which will eventually receive papal recognition must generally have recognition from the bishop first and operate under the bishop for years first.
 
pianistclare said:
I thought your website said you take a vow of fidelity.
To whom? Certainly it’s not to the Pope since you’re so open about your anger. 🤷
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I am not angry, but thanks for you presumptive rash judgment of my emotional state and the big time rash judgment that is sinful to imply that I have no fidelity to the Pope.

I do take a vow of fidelity. So did St. Paul and St. Catherine and yet they criticized a pope. Canon law gives us all the permission and right to bring up issues like this and to bring up those issues publicly, or do you think Canon law has no fidelity to the pope?

So, can we debate the ISSUE, not make me the issue? or are there other :slapfight: to do?
 
BroIgnatius said:
I am not angry, but thanks for you presumptive rash judgment of my emotional state.

I do take a vow of fidelity. So did St. Paul and St. Catherine and yet they criticized a pope. Canon law gives us all the permission and right to bring up issues like this and to bring up those issues publicly, or do you think Canon law has no fidelity to the pope?

So, can we debate the ISSUE, not make me the issue? or are there other :slapfight: to do?
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Funny how everyone who disagrees with you is “judging”.
That’s what people who know they are wrong tend to say “You’re judging me! How dare you!!!”

No, I don’t care to engage you any longer. Or ever, really.
 
wild_thing said:
As for criticizing the Pope and pointing out that St. Paul and St. Catherine of Siena corrected their popes- what are you saying? Are you a St. Paul or a Saint Catherine? Really? Besides the fact that they always tried to help guide the popes with charity, they lived in different times. Since Jesus told this very same Saint Catherine that no one was to criticize and judge His priests, that judgement of them was for Him alone, it worries me that people feel free to lambast Pope Francis. I urge you all to take his comments with a grain of salt, remembering that he promised to help the poor, the marginalized, the weak, and the despised, just like St. Francis before him and Jesus before that. Why are you scandalized when his homilies and talks do just that?

Pray very much for our Pope. His ability to be ruled and guided by the Holy Spirit rests on the strength of our prayers. If you feel he is lacking as a ruler, what prayers and sacrifices are you making on his behalf to God? Are you fasting non-stop like St. Catherine did, or enduring beatings and whippings like St. Paul? Until you have offered up sufferings, prayers, and alms on behalf of a person you do not like very much, you haven’t loved as Jesus has loved- with complete generosity and selflessness.
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BroIgnatius said:
I am not angry, but thanks for you presumptive rash judgment of my emotional state.

I do take a vow of fidelity. So did St. Paul and St. Catherine and yet they criticized a pope. Canon law gives us all the permission and right to bring up issues like this and to bring up those issues publicly, or do you think Canon law has no fidelity to the pope?

So, can we debate the ISSUE, not make me the issue? or are there other :slapfight: to do?
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Perhaps you should read the post from wild thing again. Or maybe for the first time.

I am sure the Pope would thank you for your rash judgements about him too.
Again, why is it okay for you to beat up the Pope, but no one can say anything to you?

And let’s remember, the topic here is something that Pope Francis said and we were going to discuss. **You **are the one that went off the topic you now so desperately want to get back to, when you are the one that began attacking the Pope.
 
shockerfan said:
Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are a religious order. They are listed on the Website of the Diocese of Worchester, MA

worcesterdiocese.org/religious-communities

Are you sure they are “not approved by the pope”?

And yes, according to their website, they do have an agenda:
“Welcome to the monastery of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, two separate communities of Brothers and Sisters living traditional religious lives in the spirituality of Saint Louis Marie de Montfort’s “True Devotion to Mary.” We are faithful to the Holy Father, Pope Francis, and loyal to the Latin Tridentine Mass which is offered daily here in Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel”

Be careful! If you standard to even read someone’s writings about the faith is that they be “approved by the pope”, we’ll have to hold you to the same standard. Please provide proof your posts and opinions about the faith are approved by the pope!
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Just for clarification, as the threads have been over this before and it’s also on Wikipedia, “Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary” was the group founded by Father Feeney, who used to teach that only Catholics went to heaven and who was excommunicated from the Church during the 50s, but was received back into the Church in the early 1970s before he died. There are two groups of “Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary”. The Massachusetts one that you linked has been in full communion with the Vatican for a while. There is another branch located in New Hampshire using the same name but for a long time it was a schismatic group; however, as of 2010 it was taking some steps to reconcile.

Some sources here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeneyism

I’m not sure which of the 2 groups it was, but one of them wrote a book on Catholic stuff like saints and the significance of certain numbers like 3 and 7 that I had as a small child. It was being sold in a secular department store of all places and I wanted it because it had Jesus on it. My mother was somehow familiar with this group and bought the book for me, but then kept hiding it from me after she discovered it was full of gory stories of martyr’s deaths which she was afraid would give me nightmares.
 
This has always been a confusing “area” for me. I love and admire the Holy Father for his examples of humility, his emphasis on the poor. When you have things like the four Cardinals, seeking clarification, inspirational leaders like Cardinal Sarah [who I like a great deal], and statements from the Pope that seem difficult to put IN context, it is hard to know what to think.

There is a flat statement about infallibility when speaking of doctrine, and then things get hazy. “It is ok to disagree with the Pope,” the chair of Saint Peter, guidance by the Holy Spirit, and obedience. All very confusing.

I am FAR from perfect, yet I tend to think of myself as being on the conservative side of issues. I feel as if I was a bit chastised earlier in this thread. I seemed to me the Pope was being sarcastic. I felt a bit hurt by what he said. I guess it is because I feel church doctrine is somehow slowly being threatened. The Church is important to me. Am I making any sense at all? I am not sure what to think about these statements.
 
Irishmom2 said:
Perhaps you should read the post from wild thing again. Or maybe for the first time.

I am sure the Pope would thank you for your rash judgements about him too.
Again, why is it okay for you to beat up the Pope, but no one can say anything to you?

And let’s remember, the topic here is something that Pope Francis said and we were going to discuss. **You **are the one that went off the topic you now so desperately want to get back to, when you are the one that began attacking the Pope.
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Actually, dear, this comes from Cardinal and bishops and others. It is all documented and thus, by definition, not rash judgment, but nevermind. :banghead:

Well, reasoned appeal did not work, humor did not work. Since this is not going to stop, I will stop. So, go ahead and bash all you want.Make me the issue if you will. I will no longer respond to the bashing that misinterprets my posts, attacks, or other nonsense.

I will try to stick to the topic at hand and respond to those who do too, those who post with reasoned debate.

Galatians 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another take heed that you are not consumed by one another.
 
esieffe said:
I am FAR from perfect, yet I tend to think of myself as being on the conservative side of issues. I feel as if I was a bit chastised earlier in this thread. I seemed to me the Pope was being sarcastic. I felt a bit hurt by what he said. I guess it is because I feel church doctrine is somehow slowly being threatened. The Church is important to me. Am I making any sense at all? I am not sure what to think about these statements.
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I’m trying to understand where you and others like you are coming from. It’s obvious to me that you are a generally good person and so are many others, but you seem to also perceive a threat to the Church from somewhere that I’m not seeing. I think of the Church as being loving and inclusive first and worrying about people’s morals maybe second, whereas the conservative people would seem to reverse that. I’m not saying one way is “right” and the other “wrong” or one way “good” and the other “bad”. It’s just that when I see a Jesus in the Bible welcoming sinners and rejects of society while casting a jaundiced eye towards the ones working the hardest to outdo each other in how holy they could appear by following rules (though note that Jesus was always on the side of those who showed genuine holiness by loving God and neighbor), I feel like we always have to start with love and inclusion. I can’t imagine that doing that would crumble the Church. But, I am a bear of little brain.
 
You know, despite the reference to the scribes, the first sin that occurred to me when I read the Pope’s words was not the sin of hypocrisy but actually, the sin of PRIDE. I have certainly committed that sin many times myself. Both on CAF and in real life. 😊 And while secular society certainly tends to frown on hypocrisy, the overall tendency is to extol pride as a virtue.

ETA: This is one definition of the Sin of Pride from the Catholic Online encyclopedia:

catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9620
Pride is the excessive love of one’s own excellence. It is ordinarily accounted one of the seven capital sins. St. Thomas, however, endorsing the appreciation of St. Gregory , considers it the queen of all vices, and puts vainglory in its place as one of the deadly sins.
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In giving it this pre-eminence he takes it in a most formal and complete signification. He understands it to be that frame of mind in which a man, through the love of his own worth, aims to withdraw himself from subjection to Almighty God , and sets at naught the commands of superiors. It is a species of contempt of God and of those who bear his commission. Regarded in this way, it is of course mortal sin of a most heinous sort.
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shockerfan said:
Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary are a religious order. They are listed on the Website of the Diocese of Worchester, MA

worcesterdiocese.org/religious-communities

Are you sure they are “not approved by the pope”?

And yes, according to their website, they do have an agenda:
“Welcome to the monastery of the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, two separate communities of Brothers and Sisters living traditional religious lives in the spirituality of Saint Louis Marie de Montfort’s “True Devotion to Mary.” We are faithful to the Holy Father, Pope Francis, and loyal to the Latin Tridentine Mass which is offered daily here in Immaculate Heart of Mary Chapel”

Be careful! If you standard to even read someone’s writings about the faith is that they be “approved by the pope”, we’ll have to hold you to the same standard. Please provide proof your posts and opinions about the faith are approved by the pope!
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That’s good to see. Last time I investigated them, I couldn’t find any ecclesiastical approbation.
 
It’s always good for any Christian to be reminded of this. Those who haven’t done x, y and z can easily become too proud and think or act as if they don’t need God’s Grace.

I don’t know who in particular he has in mind but on a less political and more relational level, I know some can easily be seen as thinking they’re perfect and despising others even though they don’t. Unfortunately, there are some who behave well enough that others will perceive them as fake and/or feel they’re being judged by the ‘perfect’ person just based on what this ‘perfect’ person has done or hasn’t done. Then there’s the case where some will think he or she said x or y is wrong and a sin to be avoided therefore he or she despises others. This is something to keep in mind.

It’s a bit concerning some will seize what the Pope has said and use it as an excuse to dilute certain teachings simply because everyone sins one way or another or say certain things are indeed sin. Surely it should be ‘we all sin, therefore we need to help each other to avoid sin’.
 
BroIgnatius said:
Just note: most communities are recognized by the bishop, not the Pope. Only communities with a global presence are generally given recognition by the Holy See.

And, even the ones which will eventually receive papal recognition must generally have recognition from the bishop first and operate under the bishop for years first.
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(1) As I say, Ignatius only has personal vows to God which for pious reasons, happened to be made in a friendly priest’s mass (his Spiritual Director, not his lawful Superior as he does not have one).

(2) This voluntary association (founded largely by Ignatius himself) was first called “Order of the Legion of St. Michael (OLSM).”
Now an “Order”, in the Catholic Church, is the more traditional name for what is a type of Religious Institute.
Members of such a RI take public and solemn vows.

Such a RI must also be formally approved by the local Bishop, or in the case of an “Order” one would tend to expect formal approval from the Pope with a head office in Rome.

That likely explains why Ignatius later had to change the name to “Oblates and Missioners of St. Michael” as he was in fact at odds with Canon Law.
It is a loose Association of members with personal vows (oaths actually).

Ignatius wants to be seen as legit - even if he isn’t a real “Brother” as most of us born n bred Catholics rightly understand public use of that title.

(3) Nor does Ignatius’s voluntary Association have any Canonical approval via his local Bishop. While Ignatius tries to give the impression above that his Association has the same canonical diocesan mandate as a true Religious Institute (as opposed to a lay Association that any of us could form without anybody’s permission) he does not actually say his Association is one.

As of 2009 Ignatius was unable to do so. A journalist contacted the local bishop of the diocese in which his “hermitage” is located who had never heard of him or his “order”.
searinglight.blogspot.co.nz/2009/12/on-spcdc-bro-ignatius-mary-and-richard.html

If Ignatius can advise us if the situation has changed I suggest that would be helpful for many of us?

(4) Nor does Ignatius, being legally only under his own personal vow to God and himself, have a true Superior or a hierarchical “chain of command” to Rome re obedience.
In fact I do not believe he as even taken an oath of obedience (let alone a personal private vow, let alone a public vow) to a canonically lawful Superior.

As Canon 1192 states: “A vow is public if it is accepted in the name of the Church by a lawful Superior.” As Ignatius has taken only private vows he has no such lawful Superior and is not a member of a true RI.

Yes Ignatius has a personal Spiritual Advisor, as do many of us here.
Yes, his Association has an oath of fidelity. The current oath for vowed entrants is:
  • to exercise my service according to the requirements of the Holy Rule of St. Michael.
  • I shall associate myself with what is expressed by the holy shepherds as authentic doctors and teachers of the faith…
  • And with diocesan bishops I shall gladly devote my energy so that apostolic activity, to be exercised by the mandate and in the name of the Church…
  • I shall also associate myself with what is expressed by my superiors and perform all apostolic activity in the name of the Oblates and Missioners of St. Michael in communion with them and its leaders.
    saint-mike.org/stmike/oath.html#Fidelity
However most of this is trivial and it is an oath of fidelity and not a vow of obedience to a person. The last oath is directed to Ignatius personally by members, given that he is the founder and leader.
It is not clear that Ignatius himself has made such an “oath of fidelity” to anybody but himself.
He may like to clarify that aspect?

I find the last clause interesting. It reads like it is ensuring members (who are “trained” exorcists) are bound to give up any donations they receive from the grateful delivered to Ignatius himself. The Association specialises in this charitable service and likely receives tax breaks accordingly from the Government being a Catholic “brotherhood.”
 
Pope Francis is one of the few public figures in the world I would like to talk to. And he’s ne of the fewer people I think I could just listen to.

I wish I could ask him questions. About life, and people, and humanity, and all those profound topics. His words are a river of gold.
 
Disclaimer, this is not directed at any one poster or group.

I find those who come rushing to the defense of H.H. Pope Francis every time he makes an awkward or difficult to square comment much like the Protestants go rushing out to defend their latest Mega Church guru.

To rightly understand the role of the Holy Father one must understand the history of the Papacy. All of the previous Popes, good bad and in between.
The Church has had brilliant Popes, and despot Popes. Those who conducted themselves with all honor and humility, and those who were only interested in their own furtherance and enrichment.

We must never forget that the holy Father is a Man, not a demi-god. Just as susceptible to sin and failure as any of us.

What is remarkable is that through all of this, since the creation of the Church at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit has preserved the Church from fatal error, regardless of the Pope. That is the miracle that Our Lord promised.
 
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