Pope suggests Trump: not Christian

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ProVobis said:
Good points to consider.

Also that Hispanics constitute about 40% of U.S. Catholic population, many of whom don’t speak fluent English, something else that Trump deplores.
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Proof that Trump deplores people who don’t speak fluent English, please?
 
Ridgerunner said:
There is something to that.

There are literal walls and there are notional walls. A literal wall combined with a reasonable and even-handed immigration policy is not the same thing as a “notional wall”, an animus against immigrants generally.

Trump, based on what he actually said, not one what others say about him or even what the Holy Father was TOLD Trump said, favors building literal walls, but his additional statement negated the idea that he had “notional walls” in mind. One needs to remember that he said he would let them return quickly but legally this time. Practical or not, it is not an exclusionary concept.

And it seems plain the Pope was not fully informed as to what Trump actually said. It’s a shame, too, but then would anyone truly expect Mexican officials or Vatican leftists to be any more honest than the American media?

But certainly, the secularist American media dreads the idea of American Catholics NOT being divided and confused, otherwise they might actually follow the teachings of the Church in supporting and opposing candidates they favor. Nor is it in their interests for American protestants to follow the moral teachings of the Pope.
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I think you underestimate the pope.
 
ProVobis said:
Good points to consider.

Also that Hispanics constitute about 40% of U.S. Catholic population, many of whom don’t speak fluent English, something else that Trump deplores.
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But I do think that Trump is probably getting a decent amount of support from independents. How many will vote for him vs Clinton or Sanders remains to be seen.
 
queenofheartscv said:
Proof that Trump deplores people who don’t speak fluent English, please?
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I don’t think Trump deplores or hates people who don’t speak English. I just think he wants them to stay where they are and work out their salvation where God put them, instead of leeching off white American middle class. Where did people get the idea that they should be allowed to move to any country they please?
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
No other candidate to my knowledge commented negatively about the Pope and his trip to Mexico. Trump did. He suggested the Pope was a pawn of the Mexican Government. Why? What business is it of Trump where the Pope visits or says Mass?

The Pope was asked specifically about Trump’s comments.
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And the Pope responded by saying anything who thinks about walls and not bridges is not Christian, as though this sums up Trump’s entire immigration plan, even though he never mentioned Trump.

But since he apparently wasn’t referring to Trump (or was he? I’ve lost track of the claims in this topic), this is much ado about nothing.

And since Trump is a member of the “elite” and the Pope only speaks to the poor according to Niall’s son, the message couldn’t have been for him anyway.

The arguments in this topic are so vast and contradictory as to be meaningless (not yours, as I don’t a point to Trump haranging the Pope.).

I tend to agree with Irishpatrick in that we should look inwardly when the Pope speaks, not towards others to see if they are guilty, but since Trump dominates this topic, apparently others disagree.
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
We were warned of his influence earlier and his 13 million listeners. People who dislike Limbaugh should at least get their story straight.

And let’s be clear what the Pope actually said. He said “a man”, the man in question" was not a Christian.

For many, that’s the main issue. As Thomas said, does than make Obama not a Christian? Because apparently, baptism isn’t enough to be one any more. Which again, would make every person on this topic not a Christian, based on a belief or action at some point in their life.

The Pope was, IMO, baited, and should be shrewd enough to avoid this sort of thing.

The interviewer might as well have said “hypothetically, let’s say there’s a woman running for President; we’ll call her, Schmillary Schminton. If she were to espouse a belief that it is okay to kill children in the womb, would that make her not a Christian?”

Pope - “That woman would not be Christian.”

Not to mention, focusing on a wall and not including the rest of the plan for addressing immigration issues is silly, and shows an unwillingness to seriously debate Trump’s plan on the part of posters.

But since none of us are Christian, I guess it’s no surprise?
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Yup. He was baited, he took the bait.

Will this change Catholic minds? Most US Catholics do not even believe in some Magesterial teachings, so why would they take the prudential opinionof the Pope based on a loaded question?
 
Ridgerunner said:
Rubio, Kasich and Bush are Catholic.

Trump is not. Cruz is not.

The majority of non-Hispanic Catholics in the U.S. are conservative and will probably vote Republican anyway in the general, somewhat spread out in the primary.

The majority of Hispanic Catholics in the U.S. vote Democratic. Nothing will change that.

The majority in the U.S. is not Catholic, and many, perhaps most are suspicious of the Popes as being potential political dictators to American Catholics.

So, while I have some questions about the Pope’s meaning in all of this, and the information or disinformation he was given, I think this sort of thing is very unlikely to hurt Trump politically, but could be harmful to Rubio, Kasich and Bush. They will be asked to comment on this, and it will be a “heads you lose, tails you lose” situation.

Cruz might benefit as well, since his natural core constituency seems to be among those religious groups in America that are most suspicious of Catholicism and the Popes.
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Nate Silver tweeted:
Trump needs to get from his 25-35% base to 51% at some point. Large % of GOP voters have ruled him out. Not many “swing voters” left. (3/)
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twitter.com/natesilver538/status/700388974464995329
Alienating those GOP swing voters (a lot of Catholics are likely in that group) and doubling down on his base is a risky long-run plan. (4/)
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twitter.com/natesilver538/status/700389524808069121
BTW, there are a LOT of Catholics in states like NJ, WI, PA, NY that vote later on, many of which are winner-take-all or take-most. (5/)
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twitter.com/natesilver538/status/700389742320476165

Leah Libresco article goes into depth in regards to Catholics and “delegate math”:

The Pope Is Way More Popular Than Donald Trump
fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-pope-is-way-more-popular-than-donald-trump/
 
popist2000 said:
I don’t think Trump deplores or hates people who don’t speak English. I just think he wants them to stay where they are and work out their salvation where God put them, instead of leeching off white American middle class. Where did people get the idea that they should be allowed to move to any country they please?
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False compassion??? This is why things are so confusing. Trump merely wants to enforce the law and yet he’s looked upon as cruel and “not a christian.”

In this world everyone suffers, not just the poor. Every one must carry their cross and do what’s right. I agree with Trump’s plan to secure the border and allow only legal immigrants. The border problem is simply too much to bear for much longer. If the Pope doesn’t like that plan, I guess we’ll have to disagree.
 
popist2000 said:
According to Wikipedia this is a definition of genocide:

“Genocide is a series of purposeful actions by a perpetrator(s) to destroy a collectivity through mass or selective murders of group members and suppressing the biological and social reproduction of the collectivity. This can be accomplished through the imposed proscription or restriction of reproduction of group members, increasing infant mortality, and breaking the linkage between reproduction and socialization of children in the family or group of origin. The perpetrator may represent the state of the victim, another state, or another collectivity. (Genocide: A Sociological Perspective, London)[13][22]”

To me it’s clear that engineering immigration,of millions of people from another race to mix with the targeted host race (Caucasians) is a form of genocide. This is why I will always oppose all immigration (even legal) unless the immigrants are of the similar racial (European) background.
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So the USA is a Caucasian country full of people from European backgrounds? There are no African Americans or Native Americans (the latter pre-dating Columbus, of course)? No Americans from an Asian heritage? I thought the USA was a country where everyone was welcomed. At least, that’s what we understand in Europe.

Leaving aside the current conversation about the Pope and Mr Trump, I’m pretty sure that you definitely can’t be a Christian if you are racist.
 
Cider said:
Ok serious question, since we seem to have played out the whole is Trump a Christian or not thing.

I’m being serious here, do you think it’s a sin to vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary just you can try and help Clinton lose the nomination? I’m in an open primary state.
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Legally - It’s legal, no issue there.

Morally - If your motive is because you fear what Clinton would do to the country’s and the unchristian principles she espouses, then it would be justified.

All my opinion, but I can’t see an impure motive here. Voting in the other’s party’s primary just to “screw them up” or whatever isn’t noble. Keeping their party favorite out of the Presidency at a critical time for Christianity and America is.
 
queenofheartscv said:
False compassion??? This is why things are so confusing. Trump merely wants to enforce the law and yet he’s looked upon as cruel and “not a christian.”

In this world everyone suffers, not just the poor. Every one must carry their cross and do what’s right. I agree with Trump’s plan to secure the border and allow only legal immigrants. The border problem is simply too much to bear for much longer. If the Pope doesn’t like that plan, I guess we’ll have to disagree.
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Well I agree with that plan, but Trump also says he’s going to make Mexico pay for the wall. Although he doesn’t say how. And honestly I don’t think we can make Mexico pay for it.
 
queenofheartscv said:
Proof that Trump deplores people who don’t speak fluent English, please?
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Does it trouble you at all that Trump has unfairly responded in a very harsh manner to the Pope? Trump can read, he knows the Pope was not calling him out by name, and he knows that the Pope said that if one thinks ONLY of walls, and not of making bridges, that is not Christian. The fact is the Pope never said Trump was not a Christian–and Trump knows that. The Pope even said he was giving Trump the benefit of the doubt because he (the Pope) did not know all the details, and the Pope refused to say who the voters should vote for. Yet, Trump could not pass the opportunity to act tough even to the Pope.

In no way does that bother you?
 
SWolf said:
Yup. He was baited, he took the bait.

Will this change Catholic minds? Most US Catholics do not even believe in some Magesterial teachings, so why would they take the prudential opinionof the Pope based on a loaded question?
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25% listen to him on Mass attendance.

Many disagree on contraception, gay marriage and even abortion.

I doubt his stance on the man who may or may not be Trump will move the needle.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
Last time I was in Rome was about 25 years ago in the summer. I remember there were all night watermelon stands, in case you needed a slice of watermelon at 3 am. Does that still exist?
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I was there last in 2010 - I don’t remember watermelon stands. To beat the heat I carry a water bottle and fill it at the water from the old city spouts that run everywhere; it is actually not bad and quite cool. (and I do eat pizza from everywhere) I was surprised to see mini grocery stores (I had not been there since the late 90s/early 2000s) popping up everywhere - I wouldn’t say American but very convenient - lots of good produce, cheese, bread, etc. I just did that for my fruit. They do have farmers markets too but I did not run across them where I was. Good chocolate and espresso everywhere too - and of course the restaurants for pasta. Let’s face it, Donald would be doing me a favor deporting me to Vatican City. 🙂
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
And the Pope responded by saying anything who thinks about walls and not bridges is not Christian, as though this sums up Trump’s entire immigration plan, even though he never mentioned Trump.

But since he apparently wasn’t referring to Trump (or was he? I’ve lost track of the claims in this topic), this is much ado about nothing.

And since Trump is a member of the “elite” and the Pope only speaks to the poor according to Niall’s son, the message couldn’t have been for him anyway.

The arguments in this topic are so vast and contradictory as to be meaningless (not yours, as I don’t a point to Trump haranging the Pope.).

I tend to agree with Irishpatrick in that we should look inwardly when the Pope speaks, not towards others to see if they are guilty, but since Trump dominates this topic, apparently others disagree.
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You don’t need to read the whole thread.

Here is the Pope’s message at Juarez:
osservatoreromano.va/en/news/no-more-death-or-exploitation

read this:

ncregister.com/daily-news/full-text-of-pope-francis-in-flight-interview-from-mexico-to-rome/

and this

ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-person-who-thinks-only-about-building-walls-not-building-bridges-is-no/
after this you should be all caught up.
 
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