Pope suggests Trump: not Christian

[Path_Finder]

Maybe if Israel gave the Palestinians back their territory and stopped bombing their cities maybe they wouldn’t need walls

And maybe if Palestinians were not educated from children to hate Jews, we wouldn’t need walls.

 

[bekalc]

The problem with Israel’s wall is that they are taking Palestinian homes to build it. Not to mention check points meaning Palestinians cannot move amongst themselves. It is in no way a comparable situation.

 

[zerocrossing]

The walls in Israel have helped keep out bombers and protected the population. I can look for data to support this, I think it is fairly well known.

These walls also economically strangle and subjugate Palestinian Christians stuck with no “right of return” in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - people who are descended from the first Christians.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Rubio, Kasich and Bush are Catholic.

Trump is not. Cruz is not.

The majority of non-Hispanic Catholics in the U.S. are conservative and will probably vote Republican anyway in the general, somewhat spread out in the primary.

The majority of Hispanic Catholics in the U.S. vote Democratic. Nothing will change that.

The majority in the U.S. is not Catholic, and many, perhaps most are suspicious of the Popes as being potential political dictators to American Catholics.

So, while I have some questions about the Pope’s meaning in all of this, and the information or disinformation he was given, I think this sort of thing is very unlikely to hurt Trump politically, but could be harmful to Rubio, Kasich and Bush. They will be asked to comment on this, and it will be a “heads you lose, tails you lose” situation.

Cruz might benefit as well, since his natural core constituency seems to be among those religious groups in America that are most suspicious of Catholicism and the Popes.

 

[irishpatrick]

And maybe if Palestinians were not educated from children to hate Jews, we wouldn’t need walls.

But, where does it stop? So many walls…so much hate, and separation. Maybe it never stops until the Lord returns–but aren’t we called to try?

 

[Path_Finder]

Yes, it is well known, and that is why I mentioned the sometimes requirement for the same. My point is that the walls in Israel are a sign of human failure. If not, then the walls would not be needed.

My fear/concern is that we seem to see more-and-more of this–human failures. One day we will all be walled off from each other.

The Church respects a country’s sovereignty, so I don’t quite see that as a failure per walls.

 

[meltzerboy]

In the past we always asked the questions–today we are afraid. That is not a good development.When a person enters the fray to win a national office, they have in large measure given up their right to privacy regarding what they believe or what they have done. We the people have a right to know what they believe so we can make informed choices.

People are entitled to know what, if any, religion a candidate believes in and practices. But that is different from questioning the candidate’s religious belief or practice once the candidate provides the information. The same applies to Obama, who said he is Christian, and to Romney, who said he is Mormon and Christian. One may doubt the veracity of the statement but I feel it is not right for anyone to openly question it. There is plenty to criticize Trump for in regard to his political ideology and proposed policies; there is no need to criticize his faith as well.

 

[irishpatrick]

The Church respects a country’s sovereignty, so I don’t quite see that as a failure per walls.

But walls, by there very nature, are a human failure. There really should never be a need for walls–never. The fact that walls sometimes are needed, is a sign of human failure.

Door locks are the same thing. The fact that we feel unsafe and lock our doors, is a human failure.

 

[Path_Finder]

These walls also economically strangle and subjugate Palestinian Christians stuck with no “right of return” in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - people who are descended from the first Christians.

The point is not to get into the Palestine/Israel matter, the point is simply do the walls keep bombers out? Yes, they do. Just like locking my doors at night will likely keep a robber out or at least, places an obstacle in his way.

Do walls keep prisoners in? Are we going to have persons arguing this point?

Do prison cells keep prisoners in?

We can call this a human failing too but we have a right to protect ourselves too.

 

[Path_Finder]

But walls, by there very nature, are a human failure. There really should never be a need for walls–never. The fact that walls sometimes are needed, is a sign of human failure.

Door locks are the same thing. The fact that we feel unsafe and lock our doors, is a human failure.

As I referred too, we have prisons, prisons keep prisoners in, they have walls, they have locked doors. I doubt if one is going to go about saying these walls and doors should come down. They may but I think most of us can question such a rationale.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I don’t know if you have been following the Holy Father’s comments during his trip to Mexico. He has been calling the Mexican government into account regarding drugs, violence, corruption, poverty, and lack of opportunity - specifically saying that Mexco should not make it necessary for Mexicans to leave Mexico in order to realize their dreams.

His answer to this question that is causing such a firestorm is actually very low-key by comparison to what he has been saying to Mexico. I have been saying extra prayers for his safety.

Yes. You are right. I just read part of the Holy Father’s words from Juarez.

Everyone should.

 

[irishpatrick]

People are entitled to know what, if any, religion a candidate believes in and practices. But that is different from questioning the candidate’s religious belief or practice once the candidate provides the information. The same applies to Obama, who said he is Christian, and to Romney, who said he is Mormon and Christian. One may doubt the veracity of the statement but I feel it is not right for anyone to openly question it.

Again, I disagree. If one claims to be Christian (not talking about Trump here), and yet his life is completely filled with anti-Christian choices and acts–his or her faith comes into doubt. Again, the Lord Himself said those who call on His name might people He never knew.

However, with that said, if it were me or you, I’d tend to agree with you. In this case, we are talking about the Vicar of Christ. Do Catholics understand what that means? He holds the keys and he is the Pastor over the entire universal church on earth.

 

[Catholic_Nation]

And maybe if Palestinians were not educated from children to hate Jews, we wouldn’t need walls.

And why is that? Perhaps maybe if the Israelis treated the Palestinians like people then perhaps they wouldn’t be taught to hate them.

 

[zerocrossing]

If my comment was the one called snarky, this is a discussion forum after all and I vehemently resent such a characterization. This sounds like trying to shut down the conversation.

No. Not trying to shut down conversation. It sounded to me as if you were making a wisecrack intended to characterize the pope as hypocritical. If that was not how you intended your wall comment, I apologize for the misinterpretation. :hug3:

 

[Thorolfr]

Donald Trump has called Pope Francis “disgraceful” over the pontiff’s suggestion the Republican presidential frontrunner was “not a Christian” for his plan to build a wall at the Mexican border.

Flying back to Rome from a trip to Mexico, the pope said: “A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian.”

Trump responded swiftly at a campaign event in South Carolina, saying: “For a religious leader to question a person’s faith is disgraceful.”

theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/donald-trump-pope-francis-christian-wall-mexico-border

 

[irishpatrick]

As I referred too, we have prisons, prisons keep prisoners in, they have walls, they have locked doors. I doubt if one is going to go about saying these walls and doors should come down. They may but I think most of us can question such a rationale.

Okay–

 

[DaveBj]

Whatever happened to "who am I to Judge "

That was always a quote taken out of context to help move an agenda.

How have we come to a place where we won’t even question a person’s background or faith? Whether a person holds a genuine and strong faith says a lot about them. I think this culture is afraid to ask those questions, and yet they are critical to get to know any candidate.

As I have said, the most important thing about any candidate are their core values–what are Trump’s true core values and beliefs? What are they for Cruz, and Rubio, etc.?

Within the contexts of the American political system and of the way we choose our leaders, if we don’t exercise judgment of the values and beliefs of those running for office, then we are surely fools.

I miss Pope Benedict.

I miss Pope Pius XII. I don’t know how he would have reacted to all this, but I concur with those who have expressed amazement that Pope Francis would call Trump out, while saying nothing about the Catholic politicians who espouse barbaric, non-Catholic, even anti-Catholic positions.

 

[Adonia]

The Holy Father should really not be making any comments about walls. Even though I have never been there, I am told there a really big wall surrounding Vatican City and they are really picky about who gets to live there.

 

[Path_Finder]

Yes. You are right. I just read part of the Holy Father’s words from Juarez.

Everyone should.

I would say the Pope spoke in somewhat vague terms if one is asserting He criticized the government of Mexico let alone, strong words that make these about ‘walls’ appear mild.

What temptation can come to us from places often dominated by violence, corruption, drug trafficking, disregard for human dignity, and indifference in the face of suffering and vulnerability? What temptation might we suffer over and over again when faced with this reality, which seems to have become a permanent system? I think we can sum it up in one word: resignation.
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=27514

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=27514

Perhaps if “everyone should”, we could have a link to such an article demonstrating this.

 

[meltzerboy]

Again, I disagree. If one claims to be Christian (not talking about Trump here), and yet his life is completely filled with anti-Christian choices and acts–his or her faith comes into doubt. Again, the Lord Himself said those who call on His name might people He never knew.

However, with that said, if it were me or you, I’d tend to agree with you. In this case, we are talking about the Vicar of Christ. Do Catholics understand what that means? He holds the keys and he is the Pastor over the entire universal church on earth.

According to my understanding, in matters of faith, the Pope speaks with ultimate authority. But, although this issue is related to faith, it is not a matter of faith, or is it? I will not comment further since, especially as a Jew as well as a great admirer of Pope Francis, I feel uncomfortable being critical of his statement, particularly against a person whom I do not greatly admire in terms of his politics.