Pope suggests Trump: not Christian

[JW55]

It seems that the hatred for the Pope and the Catholic Church continues as expected. What is painful is when we see signs of that coming from within. So many false claims and brash statements coming from Catholics (not just here, but all around the nation).

It amazes so few stop to think about the fact they are casting insults and doubt upon the Vicar of Christ, while they defend a non-Catholic business man.

Of course, when only 30% of Catholics believe in the Real Presence, I suppose I should not be at all surprised. In truth, a great many Catholics are cultural Catholics, in that they were born and raised into the faith, and they do not actually understand its teachings. To many, the Pope is just another religious leader–and yet he is the only person on earth, of all religions and of all nations, who holds the keys to the kingdom.

These are general statements and not directed at any one person.

I know very few Catholics who could defend their faith against a street evangelist or a Mormon missionary at their front door.

I believe most Catholics do not try to understand their faith. It is very easy to become a “mechanical” Catholic by going to Mass each week and Holy Days, day dream our way through the Homily, routinely receive communion with little or no reflection, go to confession once a year, be baptized a Catholic, married as a Catholic, and be buried as a Catholic. We can basically walk through our lives and not really know anything about “being” a Catholic.

However, we are way off the topic of the thread.

 

[chero23]

Is this sarcasm? Or excuse-making. It is not Catholic Teaching.

Being the Pontiff does not equate to being perfect, an article with an imprimatur by the Catholic Church makes this clear: catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

The Holy Pontiff I would doubt would enjoy or endorse the nasty remarks made by people exploiting His words, accusing others of bigotry while acting self-righteous.

Nobody said the pope is perfect. But he does have a better track record. His position towards life, marriage, equality, immigrants, has not changed.

People state they can’t vote for a democrat bc their for gays and abortion. But mr. Trump supports planned parenthood. Isn’t that a bridge towards abortion. Isn’t that bad? Isn’t that anti Catholic

I get it, you can say, " but trump wants to protect America ". And I get you, but at what cost? More abortions, more dead babies?

 

[Path_Finder]

Thank you. I’m starting to see that people here are very anti Catholic when it comes to immigration. We’re Catholic for everything else, but on immigration, boy watch out, bc at that moment we take off our Catholic hat and put our American hat on and forget about the church.

Not really, the Catholic Church has outlined it’s position on immigration:

1. The field of human rights has expanded to include the rights of peoples and nations: [325] in fact, “what is true for the individual is also true for peoples”.[326] The Magisterium points out that international law “rests upon the principle of equal respect for States, for each people’s right to self-determination and for their free cooperation in view of the higher common good of humanity”.[327] Peace is founded not only on respect for human rights but also on respect for the rights of peoples, in particular the right to independence.[328]

The rights of nations are nothing but “‘human rights’ fostered at the specific level of community life”.[329] A nation has a “fundamental right to existence”, to “its own language and culture, through which a people expresses and promotes … its fundamental spiritual ‘sovereignty”’, to “shape its life according to its own traditions, excluding, of course, every abuse of basic human rights and in particular the oppression of minorities”, to “build its future by providing an appropriate education for the younger generation”.[330] The international order requires a balance between particularity and universality, which all nations are called to bring about, for their primary duty is to live in a posture of peace, respect and solidarity with other nations.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

Enforcement: The U.S. Catholic Bishops accept the legitimate role of the U.S. government in intercepting unauthorized migrants who attempt to travel to the United States. The Bishops also believe that by increasing lawful means for migrants to enter, live, and work in the United States, law enforcement will be better able to focus upon those who truly threaten public safety: drug and human traffickers, smugglers, and would‐be terrorists. Any enforcement measures must be targeted, proportional, and humane.

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/churchteachingonimmigrationreform.cfm

The Church sees nothing wrong with a country enforcing its own borders.

 

[Path_Finder]

Nobody said the pope is perfect. But he does have a better track record. His position towards life, marriage, equality, immigrants, has not changed.

People state they can’t vote for a democrat bc their for gays and abortion. But mr. Trump supports planned parenthood. Isn’t that a bridge towards abortion. Isn’t that bad? Isn’t that anti Catholic

I get it, you can say, " but trump wants to protect America ". And I get you, but at what cost? More abortions, more dead babies?

The Pope stated the other day in that same interview, that abortion is murder. Those are his words, Vatican documents state the same.

I wonder how many Catholics who use his words for the sake of compassion have at the same time, voted for candidates that promote murder? Persons such as associated with the Democratic party.

But the Magisterium does respect a country’s rights to enforce its border.

 

[Path_Finder]

Yes, but more importantly the Pope has the moral authority to talk about these matters.

The Pope has the moral authority but nowhere is it codified that every word the Pontiff says is of utmost perfection.

catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

This article with an imprimatur acknowledges that not all Popes have been perfect, yet, if we are to listen to this, we accept every one who holds the keys to the Kingdom that every utterance they say is perfect and to be followed.

That is not Catholic teaching.

 

[JW55]

Nobody said the pope is perfect. But he does have a better track record. His position towards life, marriage, equality, immigrants, has not changed.

People state they can’t vote for a democrat bc their for gays and abortion. But mr. Trump supports planned parenthood. Isn’t that a bridge towards abortion. Isn’t that bad? Isn’t that anti Catholic

I get it, you can say, " but trump wants to protect America ". And I get you, but at what cost? More abortions, more dead babies?

Trump does say some things he feel are positive about Planned Parenthood (I don’t personally support the organization at all). However, in all fairness, he makes his positon clear he is against abortions, how are you making the link, that we will have more abortions under his administration, if he were elected?

 

[irishpatrick]

Is this sarcasm? Or excuse-making. It is not Catholic Teaching.

Being the Pontiff does not equate to being perfect, an article with an imprimatur by the Catholic Church makes this clear: catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

The Holy Pontiff I would doubt would enjoy or endorse the nasty remarks made by people exploiting His words, accusing others of bigotry while acting self-righteous.

Excuse making? For what?

I never even implied the Pope was perfect, nor did I imply he was making some infallible statement. You are reading in way more than I said.

I am saying the Pope is the Supreme Pastor over the entire Church on earth, that he is successor to Peter, that he is the only person on earth to hold the keys to the kingdom, and that he is the greatest moral and faith authority on earth. Those are facts, not opinions.

Now, can a personal opinion of the Pope’s be wrong? Yes, of course.

Yet, when the Pope speaks about an issue regarding faith and morals (and immigration and the suffering of migrants most certainly is such an issue), then Catholics (and really all people) should give that very heavy weight. And, his opinion regarding faith and morals outweighs those of any lay person, including non-Catholic business people running for public office. That does not make him perfect, or infallible, or any such nonsense that I never said or implied–it makes him the Pope–the Vicar of Christ.

I wonder, truly wonder, if Jesus had come down and said the exact same thing as did Pope Francis, would so many people have pushed back against Him too?

 

[Path_Finder]

If one somehow knocks the statement of a Wall, let’s go the Citizenship to the Vatican route, I realize that it is not a large plot of land; but it is extremely difficult to get Citizenship to the Vatican, I don’t even know if residency status is easy to get.

vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/sp_ss_scv/informazione_generale/cittadini-vaticani_en.html

As of December 31st 2011, there were 594, persons having the Vatican citizenship, of which 71 Cardinals, 307 of the Clergy having status as members of the Pontifical Representations, 51 other members of the Clergy, 1 Sister, 109 members of the Pontifical Swiss Guard and 55 other lay persons.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Thank you. I’m starting to see that people here are very anti Catholic when it comes to immigration. We’re Catholic for everything else, but on immigration, boy watch out, bc at that moment we take off our Catholic hat and put our American hat on and forget about the church.

Apparently, Hell has gates and, presumably, a wall that will not prevail. However, Heaven would seem – figuratively speaking, of course – to also have a wall with pearly gates installed. I am not clear from Church teaching that the Kingdom will simply allow all migrants who merely want to be there to stay. There is a parable I recall about a man who wasn’t properly dressed for the wedding feast and who was unceremoniously cast into the darkness outside because he wasn’t invited and presumed to crash the wedding. Heaven, too, seems to have rules.

I presume you lock your house when you go to sleep at night or leave the premises? Why not put on your “Catholic hat,” then and throw the doors of your house open to all comers? Isn’t this precisely what “open borders” is on a larger scale? Is it reasonable for you to do it with regard to your home? Why would it be with regard to your country? It makes very little sense to do so unless you care absolutely nothing for the well-being of those in the house (or country) and are willing to sacrifice their well-being for your supposed “principles.”

I would suppose that either side of a strict wall/no wall dichotomy is not a position that can be defended on its own merits. We have to go far deeper in terms of present circumstances and what precisely is being sought or needs to be protected in order to make a proper decision. Such a decision cannot be made by the simplistic application of one Scriptural passage by someone claiming expertise purely because they are wearing an imagined “Catholic hat.”

 

[Path_Finder]

Excuse making? For what?

I never even implied the Pope was perfect, nor did I imply he was making some infallible statement. You are reading in way more than I said.

I am saying the Pope is the Supreme Pastor over the entire Church on earth, that he is successor to Peter, that he is the only person on earth to hold the keys to the kingdom, and that he is the greatest moral and faith authority on earth. Those are facts, not opinions.

That is not even church teaching. There have been Popes who apparently were not totally admirable; so one could say the same thing, “But they are the ultimate moral authority”.

catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

Now, can a personal opinion of the Pope’s be wrong? Yes, of course.

Yet, when the Pope speaks about an issue regarding faith and morals (and immigration and the suffering of migrants most certainly is such an issue), then Catholics (and really all people) should give that very heavy weight. And, his opinion regarding faith and morals outweighs those of any lay person, including non-Catholic business people running for public office. That does not make him perfect, or infallible, or any such nonsense that I never said or implied–it makes him the Pope–the Vicar of Christ.

I wonder, truly wonder, if Jesus had come down and said the exact same thing as did Pope Francis, would so many people have pushed back against Him too?

What ultimately leads us is what is codified. Again, this point of view is not Catholic teaching.

Jesus said to take care of the least of His brothers.

There are much poorer people in Africa and Asia? Why do we show a preference for others? What about their families? Many of those who come through the Southern border are not nearly as stricken as others from the rest of the world.

 

[chero23]

Apparently, Hell has gates and, presumably, a wall that will not prevail. However, Heaven would seem – figuratively speaking, of course – to also have a wall with pearly gates installed. I am not clear from Church teaching that the Kingdom will simply allow all migrants who merely want to be there to stay. There is a parable I recall about a man who wasn’t properly dressed for the wedding feast and who was unceremoniously cast into the darkness outside because he wasn’t invited and presumed to crash the wedding. Heaven, too, seems to have rules.

I presume you lock your house when you go to sleep at night or leave the premises? Why not put on your “Catholic hat,” then and throw the doors of your house open to all comers? Isn’t this precisely what “open borders” is on a larger scale? Is it reasonable for you to do it with regard to your home? Why would it be with regard to your country? It makes very little sense to do so unless you care absolutely nothing for the well-being of those in the house (or country) and are willing to sacrifice their well-being for your supposed “principles.”

I would suppose that either side of a strict wall/no wall dichotomy is not a position that can be defended on its own merits. We have to go far deeper in terms of present circumstances and what precisely is being sought or needs to be protected in order to make a proper decision. Such a decision cannot be made by the simplistic application of one Scriptural passage by someone claiming expertise purely because they are wearing an imagined “Catholic hat.”

So are your doors locked?

When someone is home, whoever wishes to come is free to do so.

Except for those who have done something wrong to my family. They are not allowed in.

I always wear my Catholic hat, I am not ashamed to wear it.

 

[chero23]

The Pope stated the other day in that same interview, that abortion is murder. Those are his words, Vatican documents state the same.

I wonder how many Catholics who use his words for the sake of compassion have at the same time, voted for candidates that promote murder? Persons such as associated with the Democratic party.

But the Magisterium does respect a country’s rights to enforce its border.

So it’s ok that trump accepts planned parenthood?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Humility doesn’t mean we can’t ask questions and think through some of the Popes words. As long as we don’t use disrespectful language, I don’t see how it’s wrong to analyze what the Pope says. We should have the right to be honest and say, I don’t understand why the Pope said such and such, because etc etc.

Those are not the responses I am referring to. I refer to those responses that are utterly dismissive of what the pope says, unless it agrees with their personal “feelings” about the matter. What is lacking is some humility in the face of Christ’s chosen representative on earth.

 

[Path_Finder]

So it’s ok that trump accepts planned parenthood?

No, it’s not okay but the rest of that remark was that he would take out abortion totally from Planned Parenthood. He has said he would defund Planned Parenthood if they continue performing abortions.

 

[JW55]

Excuse making? For what?

I never even implied the Pope was perfect, nor did I imply he was making some infallible statement. You are reading in way more than I said.

I am saying the Pope is the Supreme Pastor over the entire Church on earth, that he is successor to Peter, that he is the only person on earth to hold the keys to the kingdom, and that he is the greatest moral and faith authority on earth. Those are facts, not opinions.

Now, can a personal opinion of the Pope’s be wrong? Yes, of course.

Yet, when the Pope speaks about an issue regarding faith and morals (and immigration and the suffering of migrants most certainly is such an issue), then Catholics (and really all people) should give that very heavy weight. And, his opinion regarding faith and morals outweighs those of any lay person, including non-Catholic business people running for public office. That does not make him perfect, or infallible, or any such nonsense that I never said or implied–it makes him the Pope–the Vicar of Christ.

I wonder, truly wonder, if Jesus had come down and said the exact same thing as did Pope Francis, would so many people have pushed back against Him too?

I have read several of your comments and you indicate that we do have a right at times to disagree with what the Pope says (not ex cathedra). Some of your narrative implies that we do not. However, I also ascertain that from some of your responses you may think we don’t have the right to apply our disagreement to the topic of this tread. I think this attachment gives a nice explaination of “ex cathedra”. Paragraphs 6 and 7 I think are an interesting example.

catholicexchange.com/when-does-the-pope-speak-infallibly

 

[_Abyssinia]

Archbishop Gomez: The Pope’s focus is human suffering, not Donald Trump

catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop-gomez-the-popes-focus-is-human-suffering-not-donald-trump-62799/

 

[chero23]

No, it’s not okay but the rest of that remark was that he would take out abortion totally from Planned Parenthood. He has said he would defund Planned Parenthood if they continue performing abortions.

I would be careful with trump. Several years ago he was pro choice. Can people change, no doubt, but he seems to change back and forth in this election cycle.

I stated this earlier, the pope has a better track record, I’m with this pope on this issue 100%.

 

[Path_Finder]

I would be careful with trump. Several years ago he was pro choice. Can people change, no doubt, but he seems to change back and forth in this election cycle.

I stated this earlier, the pope has a better track record, I’m with this pope on this issue 100%.

But I thought I read, one calling Vice President Biden a good or great man.

Now where is the consistency?

Pope Francis said abortion is murder.

So, are we saying Vice President Biden is a good or great man because he promotes murder??

Perhaps all of us deserve scrutiny as well.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Apparently, Hell has gates and, presumably, a wall that will not prevail. However, Heaven would seem – figuratively speaking, of course – to also have a wall with pearly gates installed. I am not clear from Church teaching that the Kingdom will simply allow all migrants who merely want to be there to stay. There is a parable I recall about a man who wasn’t properly dressed for the wedding feast and who was unceremoniously cast into the darkness outside because he wasn’t invited and presumed to crash the wedding. Heaven, too, seems to have rules.

I presume you lock your house when you go to sleep at night or leave the premises? Why not put on your “Catholic hat,” then and throw the doors of your house open to all comers? Isn’t this precisely what “open borders” is on a larger scale? Is it reasonable for you to do it with regard to your home? Why would it be with regard to your country? It makes very little sense to do so unless you care absolutely nothing for the well-being of those in the house (or country) and are willing to sacrifice their well-being for your supposed “principles.”

I would suppose that either side of a strict wall/no wall dichotomy is not a position that can be defended on its own merits. We have to go far deeper in terms of present circumstances and what precisely is being sought or needs to be protected in order to make a proper decision. Such a decision cannot be made by the simplistic application of one Scriptural passage by someone claiming expertise purely because they are wearing an imagined “Catholic hat.”

This critique is directed at the metaphorical language used by the pope and totally ignores the intended meaning behind his metaphor.

 

[Path_Finder]

Rubio has come out for the ful-fledged building of the wall. He said this to Neil Cavuto.

I guess now, people will be abandoning Rubio :juggle: in my dreams.