Pope vows he won’t be slowed down by ‘ultra-conservatives’

[Mark121359]

The term “untra-conservative” was used by the interviewer, not the Holy father. And the term ultra-conservative doesn’t equate to “all who hold to traditional conservative views.” Don’t read more into this than is there.

It is like all those who thought there was a massive gay conspiracy in the Vatican when Pope Benedict referred to a ‘gay lobby.’ It ended up being about 5 clerics.

Don’t jump to conclusions with little to no evidence.

I don’t believe I’m jumping to conclusions. The original interview was with journalist Joaquín Morales Solá. Here is that interview. The quote in question comes towards the bottom. When you translate to English he’s asked a question about arch conservatives of the Church. And he replied;

“They do their work and I do mine, I want an open, understanding Church which accompanies wounded families. They say no to everything.”

There’s nothing complicated there. So the point of my previous post stands.

Peace, Mark

 

[po18guy]

Google “Rad Trads” or “Liturgical nazis” and you will have a hint. A Catholic email circle in which I participate had 19 members and recently split up over the Holy Father’s 'imprecise language", some even calling for him to be rebuked. There are legalists everywhere - mercy and love being somewhat more difficult to find.

We do not know God’s plan, of which Pope Francis is an integral part. Neither do we know any locutions which he has received regarding the Parousia. We do know that he does not expect to be the Holy Father for very long, and that he is reaching out to those away from the Church.

We should be more concerned/attentive to/interactive with our local ordinaries, as that is how the Church is organized.

 

[JosieN]

Google “Rad Trads” or “Liturgical nazis” and you will have a hint. A Catholic email circle in which I participate had 19 members and recently split up over the Holy Father’s 'imprecise language", some even calling for him to be rebuked. There are legalists everywhere - mercy and love being somewhat more difficult to find.

We do not know God’s plan, of which Pope Francis is an integral part. Neither do we know any locutions which he has received regarding the Parousia.** We do know that he does not expect to be the Holy Father for very long, and that he is reaching out to those away from the Church. **

We should be more concerned/attentive to/interactive with our local ordinaries, as that is how the Church is organized.

I was not aware he was not going to be the pope for very long. Do you know the reason, is he ill? I think we should pray for him.

May Jesus Christ the Son of God heal the pope, the Church and all the members in this time of division and confusion. Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners. Amen

 

[Mark121359]

Google “Rad Trads” or “Liturgical nazis” and you will have a hint.

I hardly think that’s who he had in mind. These ultra-conservatives or arch conservatives of the Church that Joaquín Morales Solá asked about in the interview is obviously referencing cardinals, bishops and clergy inside the Church…not “rad-trads” or “liturgical Nazis” on the outside. Or at least, that’s what it would appear to me.

Peace, Mark

 

[powerofk]

Pope Francis is a pope that has been preaching mercy constantly. There are many in the Church who believe that his focus on mercy dilutes the faith. Yet mercy is one of the most important steps to holiness. It’s interesting, really. Pope Francis’s themes seem very similar to Pope St. John Paul II. Sure, he’s not the great speaker that JPII was (which gets him into trouble at times), but he also wasn’t an actor before he was ordained, either. There’s good reason to believe that had JPII not had the scourge of Communism to deal with during his papacy, people would have criticized him just as much as they criticize Francis. We live during a very complicated time, where the black clouds of secularism and relativism run rampant in the West and the scourge of ISIS looks to destroy Eastern Christianity in its homeland.

 

[powerofk]

I was not aware he was not going to be the pope for very long. Do you know the reason, is he ill? I think we should pray for him.

May Jesus Christ the Son of God heal the pope, the Church and all the members in this time of division and confusion. Amen

IIRC, Francis is now older than Benedict XVI was when he retired. I don’t think Francis is ill, per se, but he knows his time as the successor of Peter is limited. I also think that he truly believes that we are nearing Jesus’ return, thus his emphasis on mercy.

 

[Catholic_Press]

Pope Francis said that he will pursue his goals for the Church despite critics, in an interview with a journalist from Argentina.

More…

 

[JosieN]

Pope Francis is a pope that has been preaching mercy constantly. There are many in the Church who believe that his focus on mercy dilutes the faith. Yet mercy is one of the most important steps to holiness. It’s interesting, really. Pope Francis’s themes seem very similar to Pope St. John Paul II. Sure, he’s not the great speaker that JPII was (which gets him into trouble at times), but he also wasn’t an actor before he was ordained, either. There’s good reason to believe that had JPII not had the scourge of Communism to deal with during his papacy, people would have criticized him just as much as they criticize Francis. We live during a very complicated time, where the black clouds of secularism and relativism run rampant in the West and the scourge of ISIS looks to destroy Eastern Christianity in its homeland.

It is my belief that the Church is merciful when it guides the sinner to Jesus Christ and His love for us. He is the one who died on the cross so that our sins can be forgiven. I think this may be where some of the confusion is. It appears to me that some members of the Church regard “mercy” as being open and understanding to the sinner, when “mercy” is something given to us by Jesus Christ who saves our souls with His mercy and Love.

Mercy is one of the most important steps to holiness, if mercy and forgiveness come from the one who can forgive us, not if it comes from us. I wonder if this is the mercy, he is talking about in his plan for an open, understanding Church?

 

[meltzerboy]

It is my belief that the Church is merciful when it guides the sinner to Jesus Christ and His love for us. He is the one who died on the cross so that our sins can be forgiven. I think this may be where some of the confusion is. It appears to me that some members of the Church regard “mercy” as being open and understanding to the sinner, when “mercy” is something given to us by Jesus Christ who saves our souls with His mercy and Love.

Mercy is one of the most important steps to holiness if mercy and forgiveness come from the one who can forgive us, not if it comes from us. I wonder if this is the mercy, he is talking about in his plan for an open, understanding Church?

I’m not Catholic or Christian, but it seems to me you are setting up a false dichotomy, that is, a distinction between mercy from G-d and mercy from people. One of the points of Christianity, and I presume of the Pope, is that it is WE, the people, who are all sinners, who must be merciful toward one another by modeling our behavior based on that of Jesus.

 

[gilliam]

When he had left, Jesus said,* “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
[If God is glorified in him,] God will also glorify him in himself, and he will glorify him at once. My children, I will be with you only a little while longer. You will look for me, and as I told the Jews, ‘Where I go you cannot come,’ so now I say it to you. I give you a new commandment:* love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Gospel of John Chapter 13.

 

[Cathoholic]

JosieN.

po18guy said . . .

We do know that he (Pope Francis) does not expect to be the Holy Father for very long, and that he is reaching out to those away from the Church.

JosieN. You replied . . .

I was not aware he was not going to be the pope for very long. Do you know the reason, is he ill?

I thought the same thing as po18guy.

Why?

Because Pope Francis himself said this (here for example) . . .

“I have the sensation that my pontificate will be brief: Four or five years,” Francis said in an interview with the Mexican broadcaster Televisa. “I don’t know. Or two or three. Well, two have already passed!”

You also said . . .

I think we should pray for him (Pope Francis).

That’s a good idea and I think we all need to continue our prayers on behalf of the Holy Father as well.

powerofk. You mentioned . . .

Francis is now older than Benedict XVI was when he retired.

I was not aware of this. Interesting.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Do those who hold “traditional conservative views” always say no to everything?

There are those (both in dioceses and in the Vatican) who are reputed to either be harsh or at the very least careless towards abuse victims, or else letting bad administration run riot, either way shaking the faith of ordinary Catholics, whilst ostentatiously presenting themselves as squeaky clean on the doctrinal front. It’s probable that these people, and the heterodox, are tactical allies of each other.

I agree with Phil’s analysis. Behind closed doors it must be very difficult trying to get such types of people to back down.

Francis’ weak spot is that he - as is general - sentimentally regards the sacrament of Communion as something that should be very much received. This is what gives rise to apparent conflicts (e.g the muddle over valid marriages). The sacrament of Communion, for him, typifying an icon of mercy.

Another thing is his typical 1970s Jesuit talking-shop approach. (Is he parading the likes of Danneels to make him show himself up in our eyes - making the best of a bad job seeing as his arms are being twisted anyway?)

He’s definitely not getting at anyone of genuine good-hearted traditional views.

 

[Neal76]

Do those who hold “traditional conservative views” always say no to everything?

.

No.

Argh, you got me.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Do those who hold “traditional conservative views” always say no to everything?

.

I would say Pope Benedict XVI didn’t say no to everything.

Oh wait, Pope Francis called him “revolutionary”.

 

[CrossofChrist]

I can come up with a hypothetical example of what the Pope might be referring to. Imagine some priest from his native Argentina thinking, “The country is over 3/4 Catholic and our culture is in many respects imbued with Catholicism. What’s the point of change?”

Everyone in the Church needs to embrace the missionary impulse. And that always entails openness to change, ready to follow the Lord wherever he is leading. Rejecting any and all change (an ultra-conservative spiritual attitude, if you will) seems to me to be spiritually lazy.

It seems to me that Pope Francis usually speaks in terms of spirituality, which is going to be focused on practical action. Contrast this with Pope Benedict who was a dogmatic theologian.

 

[RPRPsych]

Google “Rad Trads” or “Liturgical nazis” and you will have a hint. A Catholic email circle in which I participate had 19 members and recently split up over the Holy Father’s 'imprecise language", some even calling for him to be rebuked. There are legalists everywhere - mercy and love being somewhat more difficult to find.

We do not know God’s plan, of which Pope Francis is an integral part. Neither do we know any locutions which he has received regarding the Parousia. We do know that he does not expect to be the Holy Father for very long, and that he is reaching out to those away from the Church.

We should be more concerned/attentive to/interactive with our local ordinaries, as that is how the Church is organized.

An excellent post, and a very interesting perspective.

 

[CaptFun]

cruxnow.com/vatican/2016/07/03/pope-says-hes-not-looking-shoulder-ultra-conservatives/

The June 28 conversation was with journalist Joaquín Morales Solá, who writes for La Nacion in Argentina. It was Morales who used the word “ultra-conservative” to describe internal resistance to the pope, and Francis said he “rejects conflict” with them.

*Wouldn’t people who say no to the Pope all the time be more … ultra-liberal?… e.g. like those who used to say no all the time to John Paul II and Pope Benedict?

Oh, that’s right, the little “ultra” prefix is never usually used with “liberal”.

This article is better than Crux’s misleading (IMO) headline.

Pope Francis affirms Pope Benedict.

And an account of Francis (as Bishop Bergoglio before he was elevated to Pope) taking issue with the “totally illegal” act of homosexual marriage in Argentina is recounted thus:
*

Francis said that he had only one run-in with Macri during the six years the two worked together in Buenos Aires, one as archbishop and the other as mayor.

“Only once in a long time,” he said. “The average is very low.”

Newspapers from those six years address two possible points of conflict, but only one with a direct role by Bergoglio, in 2009: Argentina’s first gay marriage. It took place in Buenos Aires almost a year before the country legally approved gay marriage.

The wedding became possible because the couple found a judge in Macri’s city who ruled that Argentina’s civil code was “unconstitutional” because it didn’t allow for same-sex marriage.

The future pope released a statement saying the union “sets a serious precedent in the legislative history of our country and throughout Latin America.”

According to the statement, Bergoglio and his six auxiliary bishops, who also signed it, regretted that Macri hadn’t allowed for the “completely illegal ruling” to be appealed, which could have opened the door to a deeper debate on a matter of “such transcendence.”

“Affirming the heterosexuality of marriage is not discrimination, but to begin from an objective fact that is its foundation,”

the bishops said.

Some would probably consider that last quote as “ultraconservative”.

I’d consider it simply due counsel from Catholic leaders reiterating the truth of what marriage has always been (up until recently).

Nothing in this article indicates Pope Francis’ position on the matter has changed. That I can see.

***Some colorings, boldings, underlinings in the above quote are added by me for emphasis (and ease of reading). ***

 

[JosieN]

I’m not Catholic or Christian, but it seems to me you are setting up a false dichotomy, that is, a distinction between mercy from G-d and mercy from people. One of the points of Christianity, and I presume of the Pope, is that it is WE, the people, who are all sinners, who must be merciful toward one another by modeling our behavior based on that of Jesus.

I think of it this way because I am most familiar with this kind of mercy. When I was a young child I learn the prayer “Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy”, and many others that ask our Lord for forgiveness and mercy. People do not ask me to have mercy on them unless they have done something to offend me and I am in a higher position than them, then I might show mercy to them as they probably are sorry for whatever they did.

Mercy comes from someone in a higher position than the one seeking mercy, and it is not something we do for each other for no apparent reason. I think that compassion is the correct word to use when we model our behavior based on that of Jesus, not mercy. We the people are sinners but that does not make us more able to be merciful to other sinners, it only makes more equal to other sinners.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Do those who hold “traditional conservative views” always say no to everything?

.

Well, I’m still trying to figure out who “traditional ultra-conservatives” are.

My guess is that this is a reference to the ministry approach, not to fundamental doctrine, which Pope Francis has actually defended in His own manner. I suppose.

 

[twf]

JosieN.

po18guy said . . .

JosieN. You replied . . .

I thought the same thing as po18guy.

Why?

Because Pope Francis himself said this (here for example) . . .

You also said . . .

That’s a good idea and I think we all need to continue our prayers on behalf of the Holy Father as well.

powerofk. You mentioned . . .

I was not aware of this. Interesting.

God bless.

Cathoholic

It’s not true. Pope Benedict was several years older than Francis is now when he retired. Pope Emeritus Benedict just turned 89 I believe? And he only retired 3 years ago. Our holy father is a young 79 or 80 last I checked.