Pope: We're not in the business of eternal condemnation

[Lost_Sheep]

The problem I have with this is that the promise of God’s unending mercy might be misconstrued as license to do whatever you darn well please and God will always forgive you. “I’m going to have sex with my girlfriend, but hey, no problem. I just have to go to confession and all will be good. After all, God has unending mercy.”

My :twocents:

 

[Tigg]

You seem to be speaking of mercy as if it meant ‘salvation’.

Well, the title of this article and name of this thread* is *about eternal condemnation, thus the connection.

Mercy is a free gift from God that isn’t ‘earned’. Gods mercy leads to repentance.

Would we cease to exist without God’s mercy? Absolutely! Is it a free gift from God? Yes and here is what Pope JP II said in his encyclical on the mercy of God. * “On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit {mercy}, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent, in other words persistence in obstinacy, opposing grace and truth, especially in the face of the witness of the cross and resurrection of Christ.”*

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_30111980_dives-in-misericordia.html

Does God continually call us to repentance and is that in and of itself an act of mercy? Certainly! (I think that was St. Faustina’s point.) We, solely from any goodness within our own self, cannot truly repent; it is only God’s grace that enables us to do so. But goodwill (repentance) is the necessary response on the part of sinners that unlocks and “permits” (for lack of a better word) the flow of mercy which the Lord wishes to give.

The problem with this journalism is that it is fixed completely on mercy without any consideration of the consequences of obstinate sin or perverse hearts, nor the action necessary on the part of the sinner. Focusing entirely on these words alone “that the faith is not a fixed set of ideas and attitudes to be defended, but rather a message of mercy that always has to be adapted to new circumstances” does little to explain the foundation upon which the concept is taught. It is incomplete and colors the reality of the subject. Since the Holy Father has said he is a Son of the Church, I do not believe this does him justice as it limits the scope according to earlier teachings. Obviously, the Crux has an agenda. And quite frankly, how is such a message “merciful” to those who may be teetering on the edge of eternal death and need exhortation to repent in order to avoid such condemnation?

 

[graciew]

Well, the title of this article and name of this thread* is *about eternal condemnation, thus the connection.

Would we cease to exist without God’s mercy? Absolutely! Is it a free gift from God? Yes and here is what Pope JP II said in his encyclical on the mercy of God. * “On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit {mercy}, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent, in other words persistence in obstinacy, opposing grace and truth, especially in the face of the witness of the cross and resurrection of Christ.”*

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_30111980_dives-in-misericordia.html

Does God continually call us to repentance and is that in and of itself an act of mercy? Certainly! (I think that was St. Faustina’s point.) We, solely from any goodness within our own self, cannot truly repent; it is only God’s grace that enables us to do so. But goodwill (repentance) is the necessary response on the part of sinners that unlocks and “permits” (for lack of a better word) the flow of mercy which the Lord wishes to give.

The problem with this journalism is that it is fixed completely on mercy without any consideration of the consequences of obstinate sin or perverse hearts, nor the action necessary on the part of the sinner. Focusing entirely on these words alone “that the faith is not a fixed set of ideas and attitudes to be defended, but rather a message of mercy that always has to be adapted to new circumstances” does little to explain the foundation upon which the concept is taught. It is incomplete and colors the reality of the subject. Since the Holy Father has said he is a Son of the Church, I do not believe this does him justice as it limits the scope according to earlier teachings. Obviously, the Crux has an agenda. And quite frankly, how is such a message “merciful” to those who may be teetering on the edge of eternal death and need exhortation to repent in order to avoid such condemnation?

I think you have answered the question.
The question for me is,how are we drawn close so as lo listen?
Once in an interview ,somebody asked Pope. Francis " Who is Jorge Mario Bergoglio?" His answer was " I am a sinner whom The Lord has looked upon"
There are two parts in this sentence. We can hardly know who we are unless we experience them both ,held by Jesus throughout,and not even close to grasping the ull depth of what these two really mean.,at least for me.
This is how I see it.

 

[graciew]

sennincatholic, that is my understanding of Gods love and mercy also. The statement “but make no mistake - without repentance, no mercy will be forthcoming.” isn’t accurate. Mercy or the Latin miseracordia, literally means sorrow for anothers misery. Mercy is a free unconditional gift of God to those in a state of ‘misery’. It isn’t an ultimatum. It is an invitation of love that can restore the order of relationships.

[/INDENT]

I do understand what you are saying,Longing Soul.
Though it is difficult for me to explain myself, in order to " restore" a relationship,one has to be able to see it is broken,and have experienced a personal relationship with God first.

It is like nothing makes sense without gratitude,does it?
Being grateful!

 

[agnes_therese]

The problem I have with this is that the promise of God’s unending mercy might be misconstrued as license to do whatever you darn well please and God will always forgive you. “I’m going to have sex with my girlfriend, but hey, no problem. I just have to go to confession and all will be good. After all, God has unending mercy.”

My :twocents:

Anything can be misconstrued, if you’re determined to do so. We can’t let that stop us from speaking truth.

 

[RGCheek]

Anything can be misconstrued, if you’re determined to do so. We can’t let that stop us from speaking truth.

But some misconstruings have been around for millennia and regularly produce the exact same problems with amoral behavior, open license to commit sin and all the consequences that pour from it.

This Gnostic heresy of God’s Grace autonomously purifying our lives and souls no matter how we behave is only half a step from focusing solely on Grace and Mercy without reminding us of our own Sin that makes Mercy and Grace requirements to enter the divine presence of God in the first place.

 

[LongingSoul]

I do understand what you are saying,Longing Soul.
Though it is difficult for me to explain myself, in order to " restore" a relationship,one has to be able to see it is broken,and have experienced a personal relationship with God first.

It is like nothing makes sense without gratitude,does it?
Being grateful!

Oh I do understand the process, but what I was responding to was the statement “but make no mistake - without repentance, no mercy will be forthcoming.” I see that as a very problematic attitude and barrier to embracing the Catholic Church’s call to us. Mercy is a really awesome thing, especially God’s mercy. Through His mercy, we fallen sinners were redeemed by the terrible sacrifice of Christ. By His grace we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

It misrepresents mercy to say that we have to earn it or deserve it. It is a free gift and basis of love itself.

 

[adawgj]

Alright Pope Francis, may he continue on for many years.

 

[Tigg]

Oh I do understand the process, but what I was responding to was the statement “but make no mistake - without repentance, no mercy will be forthcoming.” I see that as a very problematic attitude and barrier to embracing the Catholic Church’s call to us. Mercy is a really awesome thing, especially God’s mercy. Through His mercy, we fallen sinners were redeemed by the terrible sacrifice of Christ. By His grace we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

It misrepresents mercy to say that we have to earn it or deserve it. It is a free gift and basis of love itself.

That statement was much expounded upon in my last post (meaning mercy in the form of forgiveness restoring the soul to a union with God.) Mercy comes in many forms although I should have clarified it better. But the point is and the Church upholds that we must acknowledge our sin* with contrition in our heart* in order to receive forgiveness. Forgiveness to me, is the ultimate mercy.

 

[LongingSoul]

That statement was much expounded upon in my last post (meaning mercy in the form of forgiveness restoring the soul to a union with God.) Mercy comes in many forms although I should have clarified it better. But the point is and the Church upholds that we must acknowledge our sin* with contrition in our heart* in order to receive forgiveness. Forgiveness to me, is the ultimate mercy.

The gist of the Popes 7th March speech was to emphasis the wonderful gratuitousness of mercy first and foremost. He prefaced his speech with the statement “That mercy will often seem unfair to people excessively focused on rules.” He was speaking about those who have a problem with the idea of mercy and have to react by limiting it before it is given by stating that ‘mercy only works if you repent’ or ‘mercy is only something that is yours if you do the hard yards first’. It’s that toxic attitude that doesn’t want to see love at work because people should have to put in all the hard work we have in order to get that privileged reward.

It’s rife in the Catholic world.

 

[graciew]

Oh I do understand the process, but what I was responding to was the statement “but make no mistake - without repentance, no mercy will be forthcoming.” I see that as a very problematic attitude and barrier to embracing the Catholic Church’s call to us. Mercy is a really awesome thing, especially God’s mercy. Through His mercy, we fallen sinners were redeemed by the terrible sacrifice of Christ. By His grace we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

It misrepresents mercy to say that we have to earn it or deserve it. It is a free gift and basis of love itself.

Ok. God was forgiving ,loving and merciful the.minute He thought of me at the.beginning if that is what you are saying.
Now the minute I was aware of that for the first time and it was just a.glimpse , I literally ran to Reconciliation,and such was my hurry that the priest thought I had done sth really really bad.
I understand what you are saying ,now I also understand that God sees our efforts out of love and nothing remains unnoticed to Him cause He knows us well.
So Mercy and forgiveness flow always , we have Reconciliation to restore was was.broken or free to reject it. And even then, He will be waiting for us.
Awareness of His love ,though very limited , changes our hearts.
Correct me please ,if there are flaws. Thanks !

 

[Tigg]

The gist of the Popes 7th March speech was to emphasis the wonderful gratuitousness of mercy first and foremost. He prefaced his speech with the statement “That mercy will often seem unfair to people excessively focused on rules.” He was speaking about those who have a problem with the idea of mercy and have to react by limiting it before it is given by stating that ‘mercy only works if you repent’ or ‘mercy is only something that is yours if you do the hard yards first’. It’s that toxic attitude that doesn’t want to see love at work because people should have to put in all the hard work we have in order to get that privileged reward.
It’s rife in the Catholic world.

Reading between the lines, are we by chance, speaking of the upcoming synod and continued debate over communion for the divorced/remarried? Just noting that all the “mercy” talk begin to take front page news (with much spin on the part of the media) during and after the Kaspar theorem. I praise God for His enduring mercy and one of my very favorite aspirations is the Jesus prayer. “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.” The Church has never hidden this most perfect and beautiful attribute of the Lord, (the gospels are full of it) but neither has she excluded the broader spectrum which many in the magisterium are now writing about and speaking of. Your post sounds somewhat like you are using the word “rules” as an euphemism for sin?? (And His Holiness said more than your quoted text.) Interesting to note that in the catechism, *mercy and sin *are spoken of together! If we did not sin, what need would we have of mercy? Please note the underlined below:

*CCC 1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."116 To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."117 *

 

[Pulvis]

All to often our modern culture, adapted to instant gratification, runs into a wall when Contrition, Penance and repentance come into the sin/mercy equation. And to be honest, the catechesis of the last 40 to 50 years on this has been deficient. Not from the Holy Fathers, but at the diocesan and parish level. Venerable Archbishop Sheen has some wonderful talks on this. You can listen to them here:
americancatholictruthsociety.com/articles/sheen.htm

His ability to explain the Faith is, in my opinion, some of the best I have ever heard. He was completely aware of modern society and could cut through the modern errors and give clear precise insight.

 

[LongingSoul]

Reading between the lines, are we by chance, speaking of the upcoming synod and continued debate over communion for the divorced/remarried? Just noting that all the “mercy” talk begin to take front page news (with much spin on the part of the media) during and after the Kaspar theorem. I praise God for His enduring mercy and one of my very favorite aspirations is the Jesus prayer. “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.” The Church has never hidden this most perfect and beautiful attribute of the Lord, (the gospels are full of it) but neither has she excluded the broader spectrum which many in the magisterium are now writing about and speaking of. Your post sounds somewhat like you are using the word “rules” as an euphemism for sin?? (And His Holiness said more than your quoted text.) Interesting to note that in the catechism, *mercy and sin *are spoken of together! If we did not sin, what need would we have of mercy? Please note the underlined below:

CCC 1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."116 To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."117

In fact, you’ve put your own spin on my post as I wasn’t thinking primarily of the synod in this discussion. I’m thinking of the other thread I currently follow regarding the Church’s call to abolish the death penalty which some are calling an act false mercy. They say that abolishing the death penalty will leave a deficit of justice because God commanded man use the death penalty to punish crime. They say that mercy can only be shown individuals who demonstrate repentance but to abolish the general law isn’t possible because justice requires it. They imply that this movement of mercy is just an impotent gesture that opposes justice rather than adds a greater dimension to justice.

The fact is that the society we live in now is deeply wounded, mired in sin, a ‘culture of death’ and a rule that once seemed like a divine command to kill… is more clearly seen as having a practical purpose according to the needs of the common good. Therefore in a happy turn of events… we can dispense with the ‘rule’.

So although it is that particular issue that guides my contemplation of mercy for the purpose of this thread… I am still curious about those who in the face of Pope Francis clear and forceful invitation to discuss the wound of divorce/remarries/communion…keep insisting that it is a closed case and can never be discussed in the history of the Church again. God calls on the Church to be a merciful example of His love, always crying out for His mercy to heal the wounds of His people. As Pope StJPII says in Dives…

Everything that I have said in the present document on mercy should therefore be continually transformed into an ardent prayer: into a cry that implores mercy according to the needs of man in the modern world. May this cry be full of that truth about mercy which has found such rich expression in Sacred Scripture and in Tradition, as also in the authentic life of faith of countless generations of the People of God. With this cry let us, like the sacred writers, call upon the God who cannot despise anything that He has made,136 the God who is faithful to Himself, to His fatherhood and His love. And, like the prophets, let us appeal to that love which has maternal characteristics and which, like a mother, follows each of her children, each lost sheep, even if they should number millions, even if in the world evil should prevail over goodness, even if contemporary humanity should deserve a new “flood” on account of its sins, as once the generation of Noah did. Let us have recourse to that fatherly love revealed to us by Christ in His messianic mission, a love which reached its culmination in His cross, in His death and resurrection. Let us have recourse to God through Christ, mindful of the words of Mary’s Magnificat, which proclaim mercy “from generation to generation.” Let us implore God’s mercy for the present generation. May the Church which, following the example of Mary, also seeks to be the spiritual mother of mankind, express in this prayer her maternal solicitude and at the same time her confident love, that love from which is born the most burning need for prayer.

With the faith of my baptism, I trust and support Pope Francis in his call to examine this particular issue that’s causing so much huffing and puffing, as a cry to God for His merciful touch. Who knows how God will transform and heal? That’s not our concern though. It is being open to Him with hope and trust in the first place.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I see the Crux is at it again. Of course the Church has never condemned anyone to hell - not even Judas, and the title of this article, will, (as is its purpose) give “merciful” spin and mislead others without telling the whole story.

Former National Catholic Report correspondent and now Associate Editor of Crux, John Allen, must not have been paying attention to the quality of work that Ines San Martin submits. She authored the linked article by the OP, described by another poster as disjointed journalism, with which I agree.

The least Ms.San Martin could have done is use a more fitting title, not one that showcases her ineptness or spin. For sure, she should have distilled her reporting better or use the whole paragraph by Pope Francis,

*The Church’s way, from the time of the Council of Jerusalem, has always always been the way of Jesus, the way of mercy and reinstatement. This does not mean underestimating the dangers of letting wolves into the fold, but welcoming the repentant prodigal son; healing the wounds of sin with courage and determination; rolling up our sleeves and not standing by and watching passively the suffering of the world. **The way of the Church is not to condemn anyone for eternity; to pour out the balm of God’s mercy on all those who ask for it with a sincere heart. ***The way of the Church is precisely to leave her four walls behind and to go out in search of those who are distant, those essentially on the “outskirts” of life. It is to adopt fully God’s own approach, to follow the Master who said: “Those who are well have no need of the physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call, not the righteous but sinners” (Lk 5:31-32).

First of all , thank you all for your very thoughtful responses. As a progressive person , I’m always in the minority on CAF, but , I have learned so much from even the most radical traditional. The Gospels and Corporeal Works of Mercy have, for the last fifty years ,been the filter from which I judge most issues in my life. Do I believe that this Pope, who walks in the shoes of the Fisherman, will be able to change dogma? Of course not! From his writings though , it appears that he wants us to focus more on helping others instead of continually repeating the big No No’s - No Birth Control, No living together and no Gay issues. When he built the bathroom and showers for the homeless in Vatican Square and then let a homeless man be buried in an area reserved for church officials , he totally backed up his very Jesuit views. Hopefully a Church that is there for every sinner will bring many back to the fold of Our Lord’s arms instead of pushing most of humanity away . PEACE …

Yet, you continually defend the force (read: acceptance) of social dogma (contraception and gay issues) as though the shift of popular opinion on such controversies should weigh more to Catholics and priests than standing Catholic position not about to be changed by the Pope as you concede.

The Pope’s message is for us to keep things on balance, i.e., concern for social justice and works of mercy on one hand, but NOT to set aside or disregard the sinfulness of unrepented use of ABC, cohabitation, or homosexual acts, on the other hand.
,

 

[Sirious]

Sometimes I wonder what Pope Francis hears about things and it can seem like he is speaking in a completely different language of worldview than many of us have.
His views on capitalism, corporal punishment of children by fathers, and this idea that “rules” are bad have a very, very foreign ring to them.

If a Pope’s condemnation of capitalism seems foreign, it’s because you’ve not been paying attention. Popes have been condemning both capitalism and communism for a long time.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If a Pope’s condemnation of capitalism seems foreign, it’s because you’ve not been paying attention. Popes have been condemning both capitalism and communism for a long time.

That is not the foreign thing I mean. The ideas are foreign to us in the west and especially the US because, well, they are Latino American ideas and cultures. The Pope’s view of economics or Fathers or Men is not “western” Not European, not American. And because of that, he is misunderstood a lot,

 

[Havard]

If a Pope’s condemnation of capitalism seems foreign, it’s because you’ve not been paying attention. Popes have been condemning both capitalism and communism for a long time.

I just want to clarify this. There is a lot more nuance to these statements that should be understood. For example, one facet pointed out by Cardinal Dolan:

“It’s also worth noting that what many people around the world experience as ‘capitalism’ isn’t recognizable to Americans. For many in developing or newly industrialized countries, what passes as capitalism is an exploitative racket for the benefit of the few powerful and wealthy. Americans must remember that the Holy Father is speaking to this world-wide audience.”

The main thrust of economic analysis by the popes over the years focuses the morality of the individuals who take part in the economic system. Not on what the proper balance of state regulation is.

 

[clementVII]

…Meanwhile, the ignorance of consciences creates an even more sinful world and populates hell at a rate God would never wish for His Children.

Although it’s certainly true that the core of the Gospel is God’s free gift of mercy to us thru Christ, still, Jesus Himself said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments,” and in Ephesians, we’re reminded that we were saved FOR good works. And Jesus also talked a lot about Hell. So, as one person above said, there needs to be a balance.

 

[Pulvis]

I just want to clarify this. There is a lot more nuance to these statements that should be understood. For example, one facet pointed out by Cardinal Dolan:

“It’s also worth noting that what many people around the world experience as ‘capitalism’ isn’t recognizable to Americans. For many in developing or newly industrialized countries, what passes as capitalism is an exploitative racket for the benefit of the few powerful and wealthy. Americans must remember that the Holy Father is speaking to this world-wide audience.”

The main thrust of economic analysis by the popes over the years focuses the morality of the individuals who take part in the economic system. Not on what the proper balance of state regulation is.

And when did the exploitative capitalism end in the US? Did i miss a memo?