Positive Aspects of Atheism?

[Vera_Ljuba]

Ignore them, they’re not Christians.

Sorry, there is no litmus test to separate the “real” Christians from the “false” Christians. Christian is who professes to be a Christian.

You just complained about ‘Christians’ getting you wrong, and now you get Christians wrong.

Maybe. But I would like to know where did I make an error. Are we able to “earn” our way into heaven, meaning that “works are sufficient, no need for faith”?

You just wiped out any “only religions start wars” defense and “only the religious can be zealots” defense. We like soccer in Spain, and we’d cheer you onto the pitch with a chant of “Own-goal-Vera” .

I am glad we agree. Those “defenses” are wrong, and they deserve to be ridiculed.

(I also like football (mistakenly called “soccer”) and watch the Bundesliga when I can Go Bayern!). But I am not football bigot, and like Barcelona, too. The Messi, Neymar, Suarez trio is simply incredible, even though none of them are Spanish. And Suarez is a primitive guy, with his habit of biting others.)

In those verses, Jesus is comparing the self-righteous with the underdogs they condemn. Click on the Comment button in those links and you’ll see some commentaries.

“Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification” (Romans 14).

You just affirmed that with “quote-mining” you can support anything and its opposite, if you are diligent enough.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I have had a lot of discussion with atheists and they have helped me to clarify my faith, to sort out what I believe and why I believe it. They emphasize “evidence” for belief. We disagree on what qualifies as evidence but that has helped me to more fully appreciate what a gift faith is, to believe without objective evidence everyone can accept.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Positive aspects of atheism itself?

None in and of itself. Any ephemeral positive such as “Oh goody I don’t have to worry about frying” is simply the equivalent of sticking one’s fingers into one’s ears, “La la la Im not interested.” Because, sooner or later, life ends. And all those things that one never had to bother with are now the only things to ‘bother with’. Which is not to say that no atheist is ever saved. Since we don’t ‘earn’ heaven by good deeds, but are saved through God’s grace, freely offered, who can say whether any given atheist, while professing not to believe in God, really did? If an atheist rejected God because, “I can’t possibly believe in some cosmic being who is evil enough to inflict suffering on innocents”, well, guess what. Christians don’t believe that either, because that so-called god isn’t the real God at all. And if that atheist went through life rejecting a false god, and was confronted at death with God as He really is, who is to say the atheist, on knowing God Himself, doesn’t run to Him and say, “So it was YOU, of course I loved You then and I love You now”.

Anything else that brings a positive effect that does not involve a caricatured vision of all the things Christians supposedly do, don’t do, have messed up, ‘inflict’, etc… comes about despite the atheistic belief, not because of it.

Seriously. “The nice atheist down the street made me examine my faith”. Gee whiz. Wouldn’t a nice CHRISTIAN, a nice JEWISH PERSON, etc make you examine your faith too? You aren’t doing the positive examination because the person is an atheist. You’re doing it because the person is either not like you and yet you like him or her, and you wonder why and so you examine your own faith, or because somebody is like you and yet is richer in the faith, and you wonder why and examine your own.

I respect any individual person, atheist, theist, Vulcan. . .no wait on that last until we actually met a real one. . . but I am not ‘disrespecting anybody’ if I find them wrong on something. And no, I cannot ‘prove’ that I am right (and neither can the atheist prove he or she is right, either). Faith by its nature is not something that we can ‘measure’ or do litmus tests on. If God exists (and personally I feel assured He does, based on the evidence of the universe itself), He is not ‘part’ of that universe and one would not expect to encounter or examine Him as one would the stars, or human beings, and this not ‘found’ by ordinary human means. But if He does exist, then He can choose to interact with us any way He sees fit. But that doesn’t mean we will interact back. If you don’t think that God exists at all, is it likely that you will hear Him? You aren’t listening for Him, and odds are if you caught something in passing, you’d explain it away as gas or mass hysteria or some primitive vestige that even the ‘enlightened’ gets now and then. But don’t feel bad. Just about every Christian at some point (sometimes lots of points) doesn’t really listen either. But the wonder, and the mystery, and the beauty of God is that despite it all, He still loves us, and He’ll spend enough time --all of our lives in fact-- standing patiently knocking at the door saying, “I love you”. And then He lets us answer as we choose.

 

[STT]

I have had a lot of discussion with atheists and they have helped me to clarify my faith, to sort out what I believe and why I believe it. They emphasize “evidence” for belief. We disagree on what qualifies as evidence but that has helped me to more fully appreciate what a gift faith is, to believe without objective evidence everyone can accept.

I am wondering if you could enlighten me and explain why faith is a gift.

 

[inocente]

Sorry, there is no litmus test to separate the “real” Christians from the “false” Christians. Christian is who professes to be a Christian.

But please don’t take extremists as representative, just as hard-line Marxist–Leninists shouldn’t be taken to represent atheists.

*Maybe. But I would like to know where did I make an error. Are we able to “earn” our way into heaven, meaning that “works are sufficient, no need for faith”? *

No, it’s a gift. But the meek endure injury, they’re not dogs-bodies lacking spirit or courage.

*I am glad we agree. Those “defenses” are wrong, and they deserve to be ridiculed.

(I also like football (mistakenly called “soccer”) and watch the Bundesliga when I can Go Bayern!). But I am not football bigot, and like Barcelona, too. The Messi, Neymar, Suarez trio is simply incredible, even though none of them are Spanish. And Suarez is a primitive guy, with his habit of biting others.) *

Well said. And just between you and me, we need to call it soccer until Americans have caught up .

You just affirmed that with “quote-mining” you can support anything and its opposite, if you are diligent enough.

Glad you see that now. Like I said, always a good idea to check commentaries, and to read verses in context. People who don’t do that can get the bible to say anything, even to support Bayern if they’re selective enough. Well, no, that may be taking it too far .

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I am wondering if you could enlighten me and explain why faith is a gift.

The atheists I have been with say that they cannot believe even if they wanted to because they see no evidence of God. If i bring up the beauty of nature they acknowledge the beauty but so no need fro a creator. If I bring up personal expereince they account for it with psychological processes. No need for God. In fact there is no evidence for God that cannot be dismissed in some way. What is the reason for one’s faith when just about anything can be rationalized without the need for God? And yet for those of us who believe, at least for me, that beleif is unshakable. I amy not be able to explain it well but it is just there. I consider it a gift that others jut do not seem to have.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

But please don’t take extremists as representative, just as hard-line Marxist–Leninists shouldn’t be taken to represent atheists.

I don’t. But they are atheists. You said that a subset of Christians are NOT Christians. They are, but definitely NOT a representative of Christians in general.

No, it’s a gift. But the meek endure injury, they’re not dogs-bodies lacking spirit or courage.

I don’t see faith as a gift. I would accept knowledge as a gift. Why are works insufficient to earn our way to heaven?

Well said. And just between you and me, we need to call it soccer until Americans have caught up .

That is not the best way. You need to use the correct term to teach them - maybe over and over again. As Churchill said: “You can count on the Americans to do the right thing, once they exhausted all the other possibilities”.

Glad you see that now. Like I said, always a good idea to check commentaries, and to read verses in context. People who don’t do that can get the bible to say anything, even to support Bayern if they’re selective enough. Well, no, that may be taking it too far .

Maybe not that far. But I consider it a huge error that one CAN twist the words of the Bible, if they are so inclined. I would expect the word of God to be immune to misinterpretations. Simple, precise sentences where every word has a precise meaning.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Obviously what is a “good” thing depends upon your value-system and your preferences.

If you prefer to be a servant or a slave, if you prefer to be like an “insect” under a microscope, whose every act, every thought, every feeling is being scrutinized by a judge, if you have no problem with being tossed into everlasting torture for not repenting some perfectly normal human act… in that case Christianity is (and SHOULD be!) your valued choice. If you don’t mind that you cannot “earn” your way into heaven, if you have no problem with the idea that you have no real control over your final destination (“works alone cannot save you”), your answer is obvious.

If you like your internal freedom, if you want to live your life according to your own standards, if you abhor the idea of a supernatural “peeping Tom”, then atheism is the “better” choice.

But only YOU can make this choice, according to your preferences.

Of course the belief in the Christian God is not just a simple “I believe”. You MUST consider yourself a fallen, despicable sinner, who is powerless to earn anything better than eternal torment of incredible magnitude. Don’t forget that one of the mortal sins (maybe even the worst one) is “pride”. What can Christianity offer to a happy, well balanced, proud person who has well-deserved self-esteem? Nothing at all. Listen to what Jesus said in Luke 5:32 (biblehub.com/luke/5-32.htm) and in Mark 2:17 (biblehub.com/mark/2-17.htm).

Is this “fleshed” out enough for you?

More than enough. A warped view of Christianity to be sure, no doubt copied from the usual atheist website.

All of the above, even if it were true (which it isn’t) would be preferable to the ABSOLUTE certainty of ultimate NOTHINGNESS.

But that’s the ultimate irony, isn’t it. That for atheists there cannot be an Absolute God, but there most certainly is an Absolute Nothingness waiting for all of us.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

More than enough. A warped view of Christianity to be sure, no doubt copied from the usual atheist website.

I took everything from this and other Christian sites. Are we not despicable sinners who only deserve hell? Can we earn our way to heaven through works? Does God not scrutinize every thought and desire? (By the way, I would like to find out what that “usual atheist website” would be? Do you have a URL for it?)

All of the above, even if it were true (which it isn’t) would be preferable to the ABSOLUTE certainty of ultimate NOTHINGNESS.

So being thrown into the everlasting fire, where the worm eats your brain is preferable to simple nonexistence? A very strange value system, indeed. Nope, I do not share it. Funny thing that even Jesus said: “it would have been better if he was never born”. So even in HIS value system nonexistence is better than hell.

As I said and I confirm, I took EVERYTHING from Christian websites.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I took everything from this and other Christian sites. Are we not despicable sinners who only deserve hell? Can we earn our way to heaven through works? Does God not scrutinize every thought and desire? (By the way, I would like to find out what that “usual atheist website” would be? Do you have a URL for it?)

So being thrown into the everlasting fire, where the worm eats your brain is preferable to simple nonexistence? A very strange value system, indeed. Nope, I do not share it. Funny thing that even Jesus said: “it would have been better if he was never born”. So even in HIS value system nonexistence is better than hell.

As I said and I confirm, I took EVERYTHING from Christian websites.

You conveniently ignore all the promises of heaven for a life well lived and choose to focus on hell as if it were the only consequence of life for everyone. I know you didn’t get that from a Christian website.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

You conveniently ignore all the promises of heaven for a life well lived…

Incorrect. “Faith without works” and “works without faith” are both insufficient to get to heaven - according to the apologists. No matter how virtuous life one leads, without faith it does not get one to heaven, and since the only alternative is hell… the conclusion is obvious.

…and choose to focus on hell as if it were the only consequence of life for everyone. I know you didn’t get that from a Christian website.

Since I never said that, I am not interested in discussing your misconception.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Incorrect. “Faith without works” and "

works without faith" are both insufficient to get to heaven - according to the apologists. No matter how virtuous life one leads, without faith it does not get one to heaven, and since the only alternative is hell… the conclusion is obvious.

Since I never said that, I am not interested in discussing your misconception.

It is presumed there are many who have both faith and virtue. They are not in hell.

Faith and virtue get you to heaven.

Atheism gets you on your burial day all dressed up and nowhere to go.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Faith and virtue get you to heaven.

But virtue alone will not. And I cannot get an answer to this simple question: “Why is works (virtue) insufficient?”

 

[Charlemagne_III]

But virtue alone will not. And I cannot get an answer to this simple question: “Why is works (virtue) insufficient?”

It is insufficient because it is egotistic. It denies giving thanks to the one who gives us life.

Works without faith is equivalent to saying, “All my works come from me, not from God.”

Pride goeth before that fall.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Well, I used to be a Christian, but I never felt “fallen”. I never considered myself a despicable sinner, who is worthless in the eyes of God.

One of the most important factor in my “falling away” from religion was the concept that “God loves us infinitely(???)”. You see, a “love” which does not manifest itself in actions is just an empty word. And God does not feed the hungry, does not heal the sick, does not protect the weak, does not comfort the sad… there is absolutely no sign that God cares about us at all. Pointing to the “cross” is useless. The downtrodden need help NOW, not after they die.

How could I “cooperate” with him, if he hides his face beyond the clouds, if he does NOT communicate with me, if he does NOT explain why he allows horrible atrocities to happen? What is the adage? “By their fruits you shall know them”. The world does NOT look like as if there would be a loving, caring God in charge.

How does atheism fulfill your need for a loving caring god?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Atheists believe man is the ultimate, and that through mankind all things can be fixed or destroyed. They are actually the ultimate in egoism.

Christians and other people who believe in God know that God is the ultimate. Man owes his whole being and salvation to God.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

It is insufficient because it is egotistic. It denies giving thanks to the one who gives us life.

So what? Do the acts of goodwill, coming from compassion and love somehow become meaningless, if one does not believe in God?

Works without faith is equivalent to saying, “All my works come from me, not from God.”

If my acts do NOT come from me, then this whole shebang about free will is nonsense. Yes, all my works come from me, the good, the bad and the ugly. If I would be just a “channel” through which God acts, then my acts would not be more meaningful than any even in nature.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

How does atheism fulfill your need for a loving caring god?

I am not aware of such “need”.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

So what? Do the acts of goodwill, coming from compassion and love somehow become meaningless, if one does not believe in God?

If my acts do NOT come from me, then this whole shebang about free will is nonsense. Yes, all my works come from me, the good, the bad and the ugly. If I would be just a “channel” through which God acts, then my acts would not be more meaningful than any even in nature.

Such acts do not become meaningless, because they show that God’s mercy is not entirely dead in the minds and hearts of those who deny him. But these acts are done because we were made in the image and likeness of God, not some ravenous beast in the jungle who would have you for a meal if you crossed his path.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

Such acts do not become meaningless, because they show that God’s mercy is not entirely dead in the minds and hearts of those who deny him. But these acts are done because we were made in the image and likeness of God, not some ravenous beast in the jungle who would have you for a meal if you crossed his path.

So, according to you, we really ARE just puppets on a string, and without God’s constant supervision we would be just “beasts”. So much for “free will”. Of course you know (or should know) that those beasts in the jungle (read up on the behavior of elephants, for example) also show compassion and are helpful to others. Obviously those acts are also sign of God’s “mercy”.

Welcome to the Zoo of God, where God is the puppet master, and we all play out his script. Nope, my friend, God leaves us alone, if we are good, we deserve a reward, and when we are bad, we deserve a punishment (commensurate to the act, which precludes eternal suffering). THAT is what Catholicism teaches, not that watered down nonsense you talk about.

And that brings us back to the question: “why are works insufficient?”.